New England Unit Take Note

[peegreen]

When I decided to take the big leap and join the WBCCI, I thought I would be a MAL because I really wasn't interested in club events, but soon realized I needed a home base and a sense of belonging. I shopped for a unit using the local websites. The pictures and activities posted made it a very easy decision to join the NEU - this was no mistake.

[bobandcarla]

We chose the New England unit for the fun and the people. What you read in the forums and what we experience when we are camping are probably two different animals that don't translate well here. Look at the pictures. We are a goofy bunch sometimes but there is true love and acceptance of everyone in our unit and we wouldn't want it any other way.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Uberlanders

...But living so close to Boston, we have this thing for Boston and the Revolution. We live in a place of contradictions so we like throwing out words like "red coats" once in awhile.

funny you should mentione that. At the recent business meeting, our own Region 1 Prez (who is known to be "verbose" at times...), was doing his thing, giving his speach, and he himself used the "red coat" analogy, many times. It was hilarious. you had to be there.

Originally Posted by Buberlanders

For example, Boston, heart of the Revolution....violence erupts over taxation, yet today Massachussetts is one of the most heavily taxed states in the Union.

its actually not as bad as all that. for some reason, we have that reputation, but in reality, we're very "middle of the road" on that front. I've seen listings of states, high to low, based on total tax burden, and we're actually floating around in the middle somewhere. There are many more tax-y places to live in the USA than good ol' MA.

But rember: its not about the taxes; its about who sets them, and how.

"Don't tread on ME!!!"

[Goin camping]

Originally Posted by Leipper

It seems an awful lot of people aren't thinking about the implications of putting the cart ahead of the horse.

They comdemn organization yet demand communications and structure and other facets of organization.

Building a structure and then going after goals is the process of extreme advocacy groups. That is not WBCCI.

The tradition with WBCCI is to go camping - together. And then to build organization as needed to support the effort.

And going camping is considered to be getting out and using the Airstream. It is not sitting in front of a computer display and keyboard and ranting on forums.

And then we have the racism (e.g. "red coats") and the defensiveness (e.g. "power tactics") and the bigotry and hubris (e.g. "cann't conceptualize").

Right now you have the "been there, done that" crowd versus the "I know better" crowd. The "I know better crowd" are making a lot of noise on these forums and it appears that it is hindering their listening. That is a tragedy because it is destructive but it is also an opportunity for those who want to learn.

From the talk, you'd think WBCCI was preventing people from going camping in their Airstreams if they don't do it with WBCCI. I think this is false and a contemptible allegation. I think WBCCI is getting set up as a straw man for other discontents.

If you want to go camping in your Airstream, go ahead. WBCCI isn't going to stop you. If you want to go camping with friends in your Airstream, go ahead. WBCCI isn't going to stop you. If you want to form another RV association, go ahead. WBCCI isn't going to stop you. WBCCI has 'been there, done that' and learned from the experience.

But I think you need to do a bit of introspection to consider whether your actions are to spite someone else (e.g. WBCCI) or to do something constructive like enjoying your RV with friends. Its only if your goals are clear and consonant with your feelings and values that you are going to be able to communicate them and gain colleagues to join you.

People with new ideas can only make a difference when people with old ideas in power allow them to. Possibly they are wrong and possibly you are wrong. We'll never know unless they are given a chance. Telling them to conform to your standards is not the answer. i.e My way or the highway.

Intrspection is a good idea if it means asking yourself am I wrong as opposed to why are they wrong.

P.S. your racism comment was offensive and instead of an excuse you should have offered an apology.

[bryanl]

People with new ideas can only make a difference when people with old ideas in power allow them to. ... We'll never know unless they are given a chance.

People make a difference by how they act. They do not need permission. They can lead. Lead by example. Lead by persuasion. Lead by innovation.

The question for many of the folks participating in these threads is how to be effective in their personal leadership. Do they really know what they want? Are their actions in line with their goals? Do their actions reflect the values they espouse? Are they talking to the choir or making music to insprire the congregation? Do they bring people into the church or segregate the people inside from those outside?

Telling them to conform to your standards is not the answer. i.e My way or the highway.

This is a two way street. It is the essence of tolerance, teamwork, and social cooperation. Much of what I see in these forums is people who wanted it their own way, and only their own way, and would not make any accomodation or consideration for any other way. Then they complain that it is the other folks saying 'my way or the highway.'

Intrspection is a good idea if it means asking yourself am I wrong as opposed to why are they wrong.

Introspection is good for many things other than contemplating sins. It can be useful to help learn if what you are doing is getting you where you want to go, to learn if you really understand what you value, to understand how the path you take will get you to your goal, and what you might find along the way.

your racism comment was offensive and instead of an excuse you should have offered an apology.

I am sorry you decided to take offense. To me, the more appropriate consideration is whether or not it was correct. I offered no excuse - that is a misperception you should correct if you want to understand me. My point is that it is ugly when we single out some group for derision or other negative. That is the essence of the meaning of the word. Any time you see someone creating a 'them' to pit against 'us' you should know that the emotions are going in the wrong direction. We must be aware of these kinds of things in what we say and be honest with each other in helping to move towards more productive dialog and better relationships.

[Goin camping]

Originally Posted by Leipper

People make a difference by how they act. They do not need permission. They can lead. Lead by example. Lead by persuasion. Lead by innovation.

The question for many of the folks participating in these threads is how to be effective in their personal leadership. Do they really know what they want? Are their actions in line with their goals? Do their actions reflect the values they espouse? Are they talking to the choir or making music to insprire the congregation? Do they bring people into the church or segregate the people inside from those outside?


This is a two way street. It is the essence of tolerance, teamwork, and social cooperation. Much of what I see in these forums is people who wanted it their own way, and only their own way, and would not make any accomodation or consideration for any other way. Then they complain that it is the other folks saying 'my way or the highway.'


Introspection is good for many things other than contemplating sins. It can be useful to help learn if what you are doing is getting you where you want to go, to learn if you really understand what you value, to understand how the path you take will get you to your goal, and what you might find along the way.


I am sorry you decided to take offense. To me, the more appropriate consideration is whether or not it was correct. I offered no excuse - that is a misperception you should correct if you want to understand me. My point is that it is ugly when we single out some group for derision or other negative. That is the essence of the meaning of the word. Any time you see someone creating a 'them' to pit against 'us' you should know that the emotions are going in the wrong direction. We must be aware of these kinds of things in what we say and be honest with each other in helping to move towards more productive dialog and better relationships.

My Friend, I suggest you use a dictionary so that the words you use correctly convey your meaning. I say this because you did not use that word correctly. Should I call someone a child molester for dramatic effect and then say they should interpret that to mean something else? Words have meaning and those meanings matter.

You and I do not see eye to eye on the Four corners topic and I doubt we will ever convince each other. So I trust we can agree to disagree.

[bryanl]

I say this because you did not use that word correctly. ...

You and I do not see eye to eye on the Four corners topic and I doubt we will ever convince each other. So I trust we can agree to disagree.

Since I have not stated my opion in regards the forming of Four Corners unit but rather only the process and behaviors being used to implement that formation, it seems it is rather premature to assert disagreement.

If the idea is to understand, then finding out why I use words the way they do (as I have tried to clarify), would be the goal. When the goal is to argue over dictionary definitions then it is getting into argument for the sake of argument and not for the sake of understanding.

It is often through disagreement that we learn. But that first requires that we strive to understand the topic and the nature of the disagreement and then respect others enough to allow them to mean what they intend rather than what we want them to mean. Disagreements should not be manufactured as they have been on the 4 corners issue or about the labels used in this thread IMHO.

[rebfa]

Originally Posted by Leipper

...It is often through disagreement that we learn. But that first requires that we strive to understand the topic and the nature of the disagreement and then respect others enough to allow them to mean what they intend rather than what we want them to mean...

This is the best "sound bite" so far coming out of this thread and its "disagreements"!!!

[balrgn]

Did this thread get hi-jacked????

[bryanl]

attracting and maintaining members is not rocket science. It's all about accepting folks, old and young. Folks with kids and without, folks with pets ... our rallies and events are all about fun, fellowship and adventure. They really are!

There are a bunch of these kinds of Units, too, I think.

But it is really amazing that what is not rocket science seems even so to be beyond the comprehension of so many. Acceptance and tolerance of others sometimes seems to be so difficult. But just look what you get when you figure it out!

[Alumaholic]

Originally Posted by Goin camping

People with new ideas can only make a difference when people with old ideas in power allow them to. Possibly they are wrong and possibly you are wrong. We'll never know unless they are given a chance. Telling them to conform to your standards is not the answer. i.e My way or the highway.

Intrspection is a good idea if it means asking yourself am I wrong as opposed to why are they wrong.

P.S. your racism comment was offensive and instead of an excuse you should have offered an apology.

When Leipper isn’t complaining about ad hominem attacks, he is busy characterizing others in unflattering ways. I just reviewed his posts regarding our failed attempt to charter a new unit in Region 11. Here is a sample of what he had to say about us:

“People who want it only their way…”
“Fixated on politics, dissing others, and thinking bad thoughts…”
“Bitching about rules that don’t exist…
“Racism, defensiveness, and hubris…”
“Lambasting others…
‘Ill informed and overzealous…

On the WBCCI Forum, he likened our effort to “growing weeds.”

Sadly, Leipper believes he is in step with the WBCCI leadership and representative of their ideals. More sadly, I think he may be more than a little right.

But, I’ll bet he is great fun to go camping with!

[bryanl]

Sadly, Leipper believes he is in step with the WBCCI leadership and representative of their ideals. More sadly, I think he may be more than a little right.

bad mistake. I am not in sync with the WBCCI 'powers that be' nor do I represent them in any way. The fact of the matter is that I have been working on them to change. But I believe in appropriate change within the system, with due respect for others, and by example. This is what I am calling the "five revolutions."

Taking quotations out of context is not really a good thing to do IMHO.

As far as the note I have made about ad hominen, I guess the best I can do is offer a thanks for further support of my observations. I think anyone who has an open mind and looks at the sources of your quotations will also find that they are soundly sourced observations of specific behaviors and not as you present them.

[Goin camping]

Originally Posted by klevan

When Leipper isn’t complaining about ad hominem attacks, he is busy characterizing others in unflattering ways. I just reviewed his posts regarding our failed attempt to charter a new unit in Region 11. Here is a sample of what he had to say about us:

“People who want it only their way…”
“Fixated on politics, dissing others, and thinking bad thoughts…”
“Bitching about rules that don’t exist…
“Racism, defensiveness, and hubris…”
“Lambasting others…
‘Ill informed and overzealous…

On the WBCCI Forum, he likened our effort to “growing weeds.”

Sadly, Leipper believes he is in step with the WBCCI leadership and representative of their ideals. More sadly, I think he may be more than a little right.

But, I’ll bet he is great fun to go camping with!

Gee, I wonder why membership is down?

[peegreen]

Originally Posted by balrgn

Did this thread get hi-jacked????

I was going to bring up the October Blue Beret!?!

[Alumaholic]

Originally Posted by 65GT

Ken -- sorry to say I just found your Vintage Advantage in an envelope in my briefcase! My apologies, I'll have it on it's way back to you in the a.m. priority mail. I thought this was gone the day after I scanned it (which was the day I received it). So sorry...

__

You are most welcome. Please keep it or pass it along.

[bryanl]

Gee, I wonder why membership is down?

I am not too sure which direction this comment is posted but I think it quite pertinent.

The list culled from my posts covers a large number of observations about messages in these threads. My posts were intended to be feedback to folks who express themselves in a way we have seen some complain about in other venues (e.g. the I'rally).

The question is what we should do when we see people who set others in groups to attack or impugn them, who create rules and barriers that don't exist to blame the organization for their problems, who take after others instead of after issues (K's message is a good illustration of this one, I think), and who do the other things I noted.

The message I am getting is that of shoot the messenger. I wonder about this.

I think we all need to be alert for uncivil behavior, especially in ourselves.

I think we may all need help at times with inadvertent missteps or misstatements.

I think we need to try to provide effective feedback that is localized to time and place and actual statement made.

I think we need to be open to feedback provided to us to help us see ourselves from another's point of view.

I think we should be very careful about taking offense or assuming bad things of others. We may need to know what they offer.

We need to listen to others and make sure that what we understand what they are trying to say.

Look for a way to learn about yourself and about others' views and about what you can do to create an invigorated and positive discussion that will bring people in to contribute. Help others towards this and perhaps we can make a difference towards a better environment.

[Alumaholic]

Originally Posted by 65GT

I'll say this... I'm often perplexed by some of Bryan's comments, but in the few minutes I was able to talk with Bryan in Salem I can assure you he is NOT in step with the WBCCI Leadership. I kid with Bryan -- he seems very nice in person -- he's always willing to guide --
__

If 65GT says Bryan is a nice guy, I hearby declare a truce in this war of the words,
This battle of B*** S***,
This petulant posting,
etc.

No hard feelings.
Laissez les bon temps roulez!