Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-19-2018, 08:58 PM   #1
Rivet Master
 
2013 20' Flying Cloud
Westerly , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 543
Another "How Do These Numbers Look?" WD Hitch Thread

First time using a WD Hitch, so I'm looking for some opinions on the CAT scale numbers I got today.

Unfortunately it was raining today so I did not unhitch the trailer on the scale to get the actual gross or tongue weight. For now I'm assuming the Airstream specs are close enough until I have a chance to get over to the scales again.

TV is a Toyota Tacoma:
GVWR: 5600, Gross Weight of truck 4440
GCWR: 11360, Combined Gross weight with trailer 9000

TT is a Flying Cloud 20FB
GVWR: 5000, did not get actual weight, but 4271 according to specs

Hitch is a Reese 800 lb Round Bar WD Hitch with Dual-Cam Sway Control

CAT SCALE RESULTS:

FRONT:
GAWR: 2910
No Trailer: 2520
W/ Traile: 2560

REAR:
GAWR: 3280
No Trailer: 1920
W/ Trailer: 2360

TRAILER:
GAWR: 4080

Using the Airstream trailer specs, my understanding is that the distribution of the Tongue Weight is now: Front - 40 lbs, Rear - 440 lbs, Trailer - 150
Is this correct?

My first reaction seeing the results was not enough weight is being distributed to the front, but I'm not sure.

Toyota manual states "If using a weight distribution hitch when towing, return the front axle to the same weight as before the trailer connection." The Reese manual basically says the front and rear should settle equally. Within 1/2" of each other is OK as long as the rear settles more. This is exactly what my setup is doing. Rear settles 3/4", front settles a bit more than 1/4". The Airstream owner manual calls for 1/3 of the tongue weight to be evenly distributed between the three axles.

So, of the three guidelines the Airstream is the only one calling for that much tongue weight to go to the front. Reason I'm not sure about doing that is it seems like a pickup is designed to have the majority of any load it carries be added to the rear axle.

The load capacity (not sure if that's the right term) of rear axle is 1320 lbs, while the load capacity of the front axle is only 390 lbs.
__________________

smithcreek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2018, 09:40 PM   #2
Rivet Master
 
wulfraat's Avatar
 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,136
Images: 1
Yet Another "How Does This Look?" WD Hitch Thread

Tiny load here on your TV given your gross axle weight ratings. You are + 40lbs on the front axle from unloaded weight. Your are more than 1000lbs under your rear gawr.

That’s nothing. You are good to go - don’t sweat it
__________________

wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2018, 10:02 PM   #3
Rivet Master
 
Al and Missy's Avatar

 
2002 30' Classic S/O
Melbourne Beach , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,883
wulfraat is right. If anything you have too much weight to the front. The Airstream tongue weight is for an empty trailer and at that may be optimistic. In order to know how the tongue weight is distributed, you have to know what the tongue weight is. The only way to get that while weighing is to take three weights.
1 - Two numbers: TV only Front (Steer) axle and rear (drive) axle with WD hitch and bars on the TV
2 - Three numbers: TV+TT Front, rear, and trailer axles without weight distribution engaged
3 - Three numbers: TV+TT Front, rear, and trailer axles with weight distribution engaged

Now you can add TV front and rear from weighing 1 and subtract that from TV front and rear from weighing 2. That will tell you the tongue weight. Personally I go a step further and say that the "effective" tongue weight is the difference between the TV axle weights from weighing 3 and weighing 1.


The differences in the axle weights from weighing 2 and 3 will show you how the weight is being distributed. Weighing 2 is critical for heavier trailers but your trailer is so light that it isn't really necessary, at least in my opinion.


Al
__________________
"You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"
Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO
WBCCI 1322
2002 Classic 30 Slideout -S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins



Al and Missy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2018, 11:48 PM   #4
Journeyman
 
2016 25' International
Deerfield , Massachusetts
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 921
Toyota has really big axle ratings relative to actual vehicle weight. Tough trucks--and a real emphasis on durability from the maker.

I just switched from Toyota to Ford. "By the numbers" for GVWR the ford is rated much higher for payload... but by the axle ratings the (older, smaller) Toyota had almost 500# more capacity. Toyota is all about QDR and they do it well.

Top Gear tried to kill a Toyota in a famous string of episodes. It's worth watching. Here's the first of three parts... and part III involves quite a lot of explosives and is unsuccessful in killing the Toyota!

thiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2018, 06:57 AM   #5
Rivet Master
 
2013 20' Flying Cloud
Westerly , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al and Missy View Post
wulfraat is right. If anything you have too much weight to the front. The Airstream tongue weight is for an empty trailer and at that may be optimistic.

Thanks to everyone for the info! When I bought the trailer it came with the Reese WD hitch and sway control. The round bars were for 600 lb. max tongue weight. I'm not very experienced at towing so I could be wrong, but to me those bars felt too light. Felt like there was too much rocking up and down. So I bought new bars rated 400-800 lbs figuring my 600 lb tongue weight sat right in the middle.


It does feel much more stable now, the springy up and down is gone but does not feel harsh. But, I think you are right and it is putting too much weight up front, so I will back it off one link on the WD chains and see how that feels.


All, once I get everything where it "feels" good I'll take another trip to the scales and get all the weights you described. Thanks for the help!
smithcreek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2018, 10:09 AM   #6
Rivet Master
 
wulfraat's Avatar
 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,136
Images: 1
Yet Another "How Does This Look?" WD Hitch Thread

See you are a pro now! Feel is very important. Try it out with slightly less WD applied and see how you like it. I would personally drive your setup as is if that is the best feel with regards to steering...., true you are 40 pounds more to your front axle but it’s only 40 pounds and you have good weight on the rear tires.

200lbs over on the front would be another story
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2018, 08:09 AM   #7
Vintage Kin
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
Images: 1
A simple way to look at it is:

A WDH restores the scaled weight value of the TV Steer Axle to the unhitched number.

That’s the starting point. It may be best, or more & less spring bar tension need also to be tested for best result.

Be sure to adjust TV tire pressure to the new condition.
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2018, 07:15 PM   #8
Rivet Master

 
2007 22' International CCD
Corona , California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,812
Yet Another "How Does This Look?" WD Hitch Thread

Now you guys understand why I’m going to powered WD jacks so I can adjust on the road easily? I can easily feel front end instability when I don’t have enough WD cranked in...

And with a light truck instability anywhere is just waiting to bite you...

That why tire pressure in the AS and TV gets checked and adjusted before heading out every day.

The whole setup is a “complete system” and needs to be thought of as such.
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
rmkrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2018, 06:00 PM   #9
Rivet Master
 
2013 20' Flying Cloud
Westerly , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
A simple way to look at it is:

A WDH restores the scaled weight value of the TV Steer Axle to the unhitched number.

That’s the starting point. It may be best, or more & less spring bar tension need also to be tested for best result.

Be sure to adjust TV tire pressure to the new condition.
That was the impression I was getting from two of the three sources of info I was using. The Toyota owners manual and the Reese hitch manual. Only one that caused confusion was the Airstream owners manual that said to transfer 33% of the tongue weight to the front axle.


Just got back from a weekend trip with the trailer. Towed from Southern RI to Ascutney Mt. in Vermont. Everything felt good. I like the new spring bars better.Thanks for the help!
smithcreek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2018, 06:23 PM   #10
Moderator
 
DKB_SATX's Avatar

 
2017 26' Flying Cloud
1976 Argosy 28
Alamo Heights , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,520
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 7
You are likely transferring WAY more than 40 lb of tongue weight with your WD hitch. If you'd taken the 3rd standard measurement (trailer on the hitch but no WD set) you'd likely have found your front axle was well below the weight you measure without the trailer. In my case, with the trailer on the hitch and no WD set, the steer axle is 400 lb lighter than the truck alone. Having the WD set brings me within 20 lb of the no-trailer value, but I wouldn't worry about being +40 on the front axle since you're adding a great deal of weight to the rear axle and your'e within about 1.5% of the initial weight on your steer axle. If the on-road manners are good, that's probably a decent setup.

People make more of a difference than that on their steer-axle weights on a pickup by hanging a brushguard or a bike rack on the front.
__________________
— David

Zero Gravitas — 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | Il Progetto — 1976 Argosy 28 Center Bath | WBCCI# 15566

He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. — Sir Winston Churchill
DKB_SATX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2018, 06:43 PM   #11
Rivet Master

 
2007 22' International CCD
Corona , California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,812
Noted the comment on “on-road manners” is a good way to point out the need to get enough WD to get the front axle back to unhitched weight or slightly more. If the front axle is significantly light, the steering will be sloppy or unsure felling, and the front end will feel like it is bouncing up and down excessively. I have referred to this as “porpoising”. My DW is the quickest indicator, as she gets carsick if we are not ‘planted and stable’ on the front end. The TV steering should feel just as positive as the unhitched condition. This is critical to maintaining control of the rig in emergency maneuvers, for one, and windy conditions as well.

I think it is the most important measurement that is being discussed...
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
rmkrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 05:44 AM   #12
CLOUDSPLITTER "Tahawus"
 
ROBERT CROSS's Avatar

 
2003 25' Classic
Zanadude Nebula , Milky Way
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,579
Images: 1
Confused....🙃

How does the GAWR change?

Bob
🇱🇷

Ours has stayed the same since 2006.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fullsizeoutput_384.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	270.2 KB
ID:	312355  
__________________
"Any nation that can survive what we have lately in the way of government, is on the high road to permanent glory."Molly Ivins
“Growing Old…being able to think about the things you can no longer remember.” RLC
"Never tow faster than your Guardian Angel can Fly"
Tahawus....🌥
ROBERT CROSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 06:01 AM   #13
Rivet Master
 
overlander63's Avatar

 
1993 21' Sovereign
Colfax , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,029
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
How does the GAWR change?

Bob
🇱🇷

Ours has stayed the same since 2006.
I'm with you on this, Bob. I've never seen those numbers change themselves on any vehicle we've had.


As for the OP tweaking and adjusting, I think if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I can't count how many times somebody wanted to get something just a little better, and ended up creating more problems than he solved. And I include me in that group...
__________________
Terry
overlander63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 08:38 AM   #14
CLOUDSPLITTER "Tahawus"
 
ROBERT CROSS's Avatar

 
2003 25' Classic
Zanadude Nebula , Milky Way
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,579
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
I'm with you on this, Bob. I've never seen those numbers change themselves on any vehicle we've had.


As for the OP tweaking and adjusting, I think if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I can't count how many times somebody wanted to get something just a little better, and ended up creating more problems than he solved. And I include me in that group...
Or as the say on the ASF's...."if it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is"

Bob
🇱🇷
__________________
"Any nation that can survive what we have lately in the way of government, is on the high road to permanent glory."Molly Ivins
“Growing Old…being able to think about the things you can no longer remember.” RLC
"Never tow faster than your Guardian Angel can Fly"
Tahawus....🌥
ROBERT CROSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 09:13 AM   #15
Rivet Master
 
2013 20' Flying Cloud
Westerly , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
You are likely transferring WAY more than 40 lb of tongue weight with your WD hitch.
Yeah, absolutely agree. I meant 40 lbs over and above transferring the weight back onto the front axle.


Interested if anyone has an explanation for the Airstream owners manual recommendation of putting 1/3 of the tongue weight on the front axle? Maybe more useful for passenger cars that don't expect a disproportionate load to be added to the rear axle like a pickup?


Yes, if it ain't broke don't fix it, except I do think the heavier round bars make a significant improvement. Less "porpoising" with the same amount of weight transferred feels much more stable.
smithcreek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 09:16 AM   #16
Rivet Master
 
2013 20' Flying Cloud
Westerly , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
How does the GAWR change?

Bob
����

Ours has stayed the same since 2006.
If that comment was for me I'm sure I confused an acronym somewhere in my original post. Just switch a GVWR for a GVCM, actual vehicle weight or whatever makes sense!
smithcreek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 11:30 AM   #17
CLOUDSPLITTER "Tahawus"
 
ROBERT CROSS's Avatar

 
2003 25' Classic
Zanadude Nebula , Milky Way
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,579
Images: 1
Gvcm 😳

Now I'm really confused🙃

Bob
🇱🇷
__________________
"Any nation that can survive what we have lately in the way of government, is on the high road to permanent glory."Molly Ivins
“Growing Old…being able to think about the things you can no longer remember.” RLC
"Never tow faster than your Guardian Angel can Fly"
Tahawus....🌥
ROBERT CROSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2018, 06:19 AM   #18
Vintage Kin
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
Yeah, absolutely agree. I meant 40 lbs over and above transferring the weight back onto the front axle.


Interested if anyone has an explanation for the Airstream owners manual recommendation of putting 1/3 of the tongue weight on the front axle? Maybe more useful for passenger cars that don't expect a disproportionate load to be added to the rear axle like a pickup?


Yes, if it ain't broke don't fix it, except I do think the heavier round bars make a significant improvement. Less "porpoising" with the same amount of weight transferred feels much more stable.
It’s part of the old (1960s) rule of thumb that a WDH would (and could) show roughly 33% at Steer, Drive & TT. There was always a variance, so ideally one loaded the Drive Axle 10% heavier than the other two.

Same is true today on big trucks. The tankers I pull require a taller fifth wheel plate than that used with vans (47” approximately). 52-54” is more like it (look for risers). From empty to loaded the Drives wind up with 1800-lbs more product than the tandems. Exceeds State limits earlier (before loading to vehicle gross).

Ideally one winds up with several hundred more on the Drives than the Trailer Tandems (each limited to 34,000-lbs) so as to maintain better traction. (This is with bulk commodity where maximum weight carried is crucial). But an “even” loading is easier to deal with.

The Steer Axle will go from about 9000 when empty to a legal maximum of twelve. One moves the fifth wheel plate to finesse compliance.

A van trailer may carry next to no weight aboard. Or be at maximum. Usually well below. The trailer tandem axles can be shifted a very long ways to accommodate a wide range. Far forward shifts more weight to Drives. Etc.

Where — in big trucks or TT TVs — too much weight remains on the Drive Axle, the ride is tougher than necessary, steering is made weird, and braking/handling aren’t as good as they should be. Can be. The driver wears down faster. So does the equipment.

The “One Third Rule” was similar. Use all three points to minimize or cushion shock force. The trailer tongue is a lever extending back to the center point between axles. TW is static measurement. A placeholder. Force can climb into thousands of pounds in roadgoing dynamics from a hypothetical, original “800-lbs” when the lever is moving over a wide range. WDH dampens that effect. Initially, and finally.

Those who insist only a pickup can do it miss the centrality of WD. Use a vehicle with terrible FF/RR weight bias to start, and compound the road performance problem with terrible roll center height etc. Where the bed load (those thing UNABLE to be carried in passenger compartment or TT) is heavy enough to better “equalize” the FF/RR bias, then we just have a badly-designed (permanently-compromised) car to with which to tow. Higher operational expense, and every mile a higher safety risk (as the bed is likely near empty when solo). Took the long way around to arrive at the same beginning, but now with the worst performance in every situation.

One Third is a descriptive goal.

.
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2018, 06:51 AM   #19
Rivet Master
 
2013 20' Flying Cloud
Westerly , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
Those who insist only a pickup can do it miss the centrality of WD. Use a vehicle with terrible FF/RR weight bias to start, and compound the road performance problem with terrible roll center height etc. Where the bed load (those thing UNABLE to be carried in passenger compartment or TT) is heavy enough to better “equalize” the FF/RR bias, then we just have a badly-designed (permanently-compromised) car to with which to tow. Higher operational expense, and every mile a higher safety risk (as the bed is likely near empty when solo). Took the long way around to arrive at the same beginning, but now with the worst performance in every situation.
That all makes sense. Pickups were designed to carry a static load in the bed and drive well while doing it. With no load the tail end is barely heavy enough to keep traction on a dewy morning!


On my drive to the scales I had the WD chains hitched one ring higher than I usually did, trying to get more weight on the front axle like Airstream called for. I could feel the back end was lighter and it was the only time the wheels did spin for an instant pulling away at a stop light.
smithcreek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2018, 02:37 PM   #20
Rivet Master
 
J. Morgan's Avatar
 
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton , Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,857
Images: 11
Here is my take, I adjust the WD bars until my truck sits kinda level and it drives great. If I have my tool box in the truck bed I tighten them more, if I don’t I tighten them less. After I start out, if the rear axle feels heavy or light, I pull over and make an adjustment. It works for me, it’s free, and it’s no hassle. The goal for me is comfort and stability.

On that note, I have weighed and adjusted everything “according to Hoyle”, but in the end adjusting by the seat of my pants delivers the best results. That’s me though, your results may vary.
__________________

__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......

J. Morgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yet another "Onan 2.5 KW generator won't turn over" thread DaddysBus Sprinter and B-van Forum 3 05-02-2016 07:02 AM
1972 airstream **look**look**look** eBay Watch Airstreams on eBay 0 07-03-2010 05:20 PM
Yet another "What have I *HERE* thread MerlynGraves Title, VIN & Registration 46 03-26-2007 05:13 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.