Newbie New Year Question: SUV vs. Truck for FC 25

[jcl]

Originally Posted by AirstreamCSH

Am I missing something?

The opportunity to choose to manage your cargo?

If you must carry xx lbs, and load everything to max GVWR, then you may have talked yourself into a larger truck. That is fine. But your current vehicle is a perfectly safe and reasonable match for that trailer. You noted that you like your current vehicle. So try it out. See if you can live with a few hundred lbs less of cargo. Consider alternatives to generators. Etc. You've got nothing to lose except a new monthly vehicle payment.

[kscherzi]

My 27FB has never weighed close to it's max rating, even when loaded for camping and a full fresh water tank. If you've not taken your rig to a certified CAT Scale your not working with real data, just hypothesizing. Don't get wrapped up in what you read here.

If what you really want is a $75k diesel truck just go get it. But don't use a 25 foot Airstream trailer as the justification. That math doesn't add up.

BTW - I've towed my 27 foot Airstream over 10k miles with a Ford Expedition SUV. All is within spec by the CAT Scales and no problems. Don't over think. Go camping instead.

[dkottum]

Airstream CSH, I like to look beyond the numbers to look at the other qualities that make a good tow vehicle, hitch, and travel trailer combination. Reading Andy Thomson from Can-Am RV's articles are useful.

For example, a full independent suspension vehicle places the suspension to frame connections further outboard on the axle than a solid axle vehicle. This makes a more stable tow vehicle, and your Sequoia has it. Full size pickups do not.

The Airstream trailer also has full independent suspension for greater stability. Others do not. The Airstream has a low profile and rounded frontal area for less wind resistance than others. The Airstream has a low, rounded side profile
that is less susceptible to the effects of crosswinds and semi bow wave, they are not pushed sideways as easily.

Hensley designed a revolutionary hitch for bumper pull travel trailers some 25 years ago. Hensley improved the design in later years, marketed as a ProPride hitch. If there are any concerns about trailer stability, this hitch design eliminates trailer sway, and prevents trailer yaw movement from being leveraged to the tow vehicle's steering. A very relaxing tow experience.

The numbers are useful as a guide in choosing a tow vehicle, but do not always reflect the vehicle's quality for towing. I could go on about what we have learned about tow rating and payload numbers, but it's just fodder for another useless argument. So I won't, but if you look around this Airstream forum and the campgrounds you will see not everyone is bound by them.

Buy the more expensive truck if you feel you need to, but also consider managing the loads you carry, learn how to navigate the long downhill grades, and appreciate that you may have an excellent tow vehicle for a 25' Airstream already in your possession.

[Alluminati]

When you raise the bar, someone’s score goes down.

Toyota adopted the new SAE J2807 “Muscle Beach” standards in 2011. With no changes to the Sequoia, the GCVWR dropped from 16,000 lbs to 14,000 lbs. But they allow for passengers and equipment as a standard part of the payload. The first 400 lbs of weight in your truck does not count against payload. They expect two 150 lb adults, and 100 lbs of hitch equipment.

The 25FB seems tongue heavy. Is it appropriate to load the tail to bring the tongue load down?

Also a well tuned weight distribution hitch will move weight forward to the front wheels, but also return weight backward to the trailer’s wheels.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by AirstreamCSH

We are in a similar quandary having just purchased a 2016 25FB expecting to tow with a Toyota Sequoia. Having owned Suburbans, Yukons and rented several Expeditions, we chose our 2014 Sequoia for its problem free reputation and can say that it is hands down the best of all the big SUV's in terms of quality and ownership costs. Upgraded tires, oil changes and rotations are all that this has needed up until last week when we put in new brake pads and rotors at 65,000 miles.

So it was with very heavy heart that we concluded it wasn't up to the task due to all the comments you see posted here....

...So I'm off to get a 250 diesel somewhere with a Leer raised hump shell into which I plan to install a vintage air A/C to keep the dogs cool. But that's for another post.

Welcome to the Forum; with only a few posts as a "newbie", you can see there are many opinions here, especially on best TV! (wait till you ask about which BBQ is best!)

I think your comments about the dogs, camper shell, generator('s?), gas, and other camping "stuff" in the back are certainly an important consideration we all deal with. If not careful, those weights can push you over any 1/2 P/U capacity, but maybe not. The F250 is a very nice ride (especially the 2017!) and if spec'd. out properly will likely support your payload and AS. I would suggest test driving a few times in parking lots, and also double check payload capacities on the F150 EB, prior to making final decision; both choices are lots of $$! Make sure you go over the hitch weight and payload of your TV, as many have discussed.

For the generator issues, an option to consider which can help reduce your generator needs, is a Micro-Air Easy-Start 364 unit, many of us have been looking at. It seems the ideal solution to running 1-1500 A/C with one 2000W generator. (think weight/gas savings) Here is the recent post:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...ml#post1901314

Now, your comments about "A/C for dogs in the bed?) is another challenge I have no experience with...but would like to understand that "thread" when you get to it..

Good luck with your decision and "welcome" to the Forum!

[AirstreamCSH]

I'm a member of many forums due to my very eclectic classic car choices and can say without a question that the responses and support I've received in the short time I've been on this forum has been remarkable and appreciated. You have an unusual community here and I hope to someday know enough to help out as you've done here. I had given up on a truck I loved because of the numbers but thanks to these posts and a PM conversation thread, I'm going to try to work within the limits for now. May not work but I understand better how to approach the weights problem. Perhaps it's as simple as upgrading a few years for a Sequoia with the tow package.

[shadrick5]

I have a vintage 31' Sovereign that has been upgraded top to bottom and weighs as much as a new 30' Classic. I originally had a 2001 Toyota Sequoia 4x4 with the 4.7L engine and had no problem towing anywhere east and west. I had installed firestone airbags that were adjusted and dialed into the WDH. It was a good combo for a fully loaded trailer with two adults, 75lb dog, 180lbs kayaks on the roof rack, and crappy 15" china trailer tires on the Silver Spud. We upgraded to the 2012 Sequoia Platinum with rear air bags, of course dialing them in prior to the self leveling, and WOW what a difference. No problems before, but the new torque, power and amenities was worth every penny. I can tow fully loaded and never know the SS is behind us. Crosswinds are negligible no matter the wind speed, I do have a Mach 8 and that makes a difference on crosswind drag. Nonetheless we have been looking to purchase the new Classic although everything we read says we will have to dump our Sequoia. I can attest that will not happen and if and when we upgrade to the new Classic, we will continue to tow with a Sequoia. I will wave as I pass you all DEF limp mode folks crawling on the fog line. Not really, I would never pass a fellow RV'r on the side of a road, but my point is simply that the TV debate is nearly useless unless and until you have towed a 28' AS with a sedan.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by shadrick5

I have a vintage 31' Sovereign that has been upgraded top to bottom and weighs as much as a new 30' Classic. I originally had a 2001 Toyota Sequoia 4x4 with the 4.7L engine and had no problem towing anywhere east and west. I had installed firestone airbags that were adjusted and dialed into the WDH. It was a good combo for a fully loaded trailer with two adults, 75lb dog, 180lbs kayaks on the roof rack, and crappy 15" china trailer tires on the Silver Spud. We upgraded to the 2012 Sequoia Platinum with rear air bags, of course dialing them in prior to the self leveling, and WOW what a difference. No problems before, but the new torque, power and amenities was worth every penny. I can tow fully loaded and never know the SS is behind us. Crosswinds are negligible no matter the wind speed, I do have a Mach 8 and that makes a difference on crosswind drag. Nonetheless we have been looking to purchase the new Classic although everything we read says we will have to dump our Sequoia. I can attest that will not happen and if and when we upgrade to the new Classic, we will continue to tow with a Sequoia. I will wave as I pass you all DEF limp mode folks crawling on the fog line. Not really, I would never pass a fellow RV'r on the side of a road, but my point is simply that the TV debate is nearly useless unless and until you have towed a 28' AS with a sedan.

If you follow these threads closely, you will find several "experts" who will agree with you that most any AS can be towed by most any vehicle; but are you towing within the "safe MFG. recommended limits" of your TV, is the point. I would expect Canam or someone on this thread can help.
Your load including 180 lbs of kayaks peeked my curiosity...do you know your total payload with all that stuff and hitch weight on your rig?

[rostam]

Originally Posted by shadrick5

I have a vintage 31' Sovereign that has been upgraded top to bottom and weighs as much as a new 30' Classic. I originally had a 2001 Toyota Sequoia 4x4 with the 4.7L engine and had no problem towing anywhere east and west. I had installed firestone airbags that were adjusted and dialed into the WDH. It was a good combo for a fully loaded trailer with two adults, 75lb dog, 180lbs kayaks on the roof rack, and crappy 15" china trailer tires on the Silver Spud. We upgraded to the 2012 Sequoia Platinum with rear air bags, of course dialing them in prior to the self leveling, and WOW what a difference. No problems before, but the new torque, power and amenities was worth every penny. I can tow fully loaded and never know the SS is behind us. Crosswinds are negligible no matter the wind speed, I do have a Mach 8 and that makes a difference on crosswind drag. Nonetheless we have been looking to purchase the new Classic although everything we read says we will have to dump our Sequoia. I can attest that will not happen and if and when we upgrade to the new Classic, we will continue to tow with a Sequoia. I will wave as I pass you all DEF limp mode folks crawling on the fog line. Not really, I would never pass a fellow RV'r on the side of a road, but my point is simply that the TV debate is nearly useless unless and until you have towed a 28' AS with a sedan.

You had a WOW moment going from an old to a new Sequoia. I'd bet that you will experience the same going from your Sequoia to an HD diesel (Not that you need to do that).

As for sedan tow vehicles, this forum has tens of thousands of members and I don't know of single member that tows a large Airstream with a sedan. As cool as they are, it seems the consensus is that sedan tow vehicles are not suitable for real world towing.

[airwoody]

For what its worth I'm a newbie as well and have been using our 2002 Suburban 1500 4x4 LT w/ Autoride to tow our new 28ft Int. While we search for a new TV. Taking two short trips and a longer trip to Sedona AZ from LA, we followed my uncle in his Ford 2500 HD Diesel towing his 28ft Int. Everything was fine until we started climbing into Sedona. The Suburban maxed out about 50 mph which was troubling as double tractor trailers were blowing past us going 80 mph. If you decide to go SUV I would at least look at one with a 2500 which Chevy last made in 2013. We also had to stop for gas more often then my uncle with his diesel, he had to slow down on many parts so we could keep up.

The other issue is if you are taking a generator with gas it is in the passenger compartment. You also need to get mirror extensions. We have the factory tow package and just needed to add a trailer brake, braking never seemed to be an issue.
We are also at or a little over on the GVWR spec by 300 lbs but we traveled lite. Trailer is 7600 the Sub is rated for 7300.

Before I picked up the AS, I was looking into a Suburban 2500 as we had planned on 23-25 ft AS, after purchasing the 28ft, I have decided on a HD truck after weighing the pros and cons.

The plus for the Sub was once we arrived all of us could fit in one car as we went into town which the Crew cab only could hold 5.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by airwoody

For what its worth I'm a newbie as well and have been using our 2002 Suburban 1500 4x4 LT w/ Autoride to tow our new 28ft Int. While we search for a new TV. Taking two short trips and a longer trip to Sedona AZ from LA, we followed my uncle in his Ford 2500 HD Diesel towing his 28ft Int. Everything was fine until we started climbing into Sedona. The Suburban maxed out about 50 mph which was troubling as double tractor trailers were blowing past us going 80 mph. If you decide to go SUV I would at least look at one with a 2500 which Chevy last made in 2013. We also had to stop for gas more often then my uncle with his diesel, he had to slow down on many parts so we could keep up.

The other issue is if you are taking a generator with gas it is in the passenger compartment. You also need to get mirror extensions. We have the factory tow package and just needed to add a trailer brake, braking never seemed to be an issue.
We are also at or a little over on the GVWR spec by 300 lbs but we traveled lite. Trailer is 7600 the Sub is rated for 7300.

Before I picked up the AS, I was looking into a Suburban 2500 as we had planned on 23-25 ft AS, after purchasing the 28ft, I have decided on a HD truck after weighing the pros and cons.

The plus for the Sub was once we arrived all of us could fit in one car as we went into town which the Crew cab only could hold 5.

You can get a PU SuperCrew configuration; with full front seat also; seats up to 6.

[shadrick5]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

If you follow these threads closely, you will find several "experts" who will agree with you that most any AS can be towed by most any vehicle; but are you towing within the "safe MFG. recommended limits" of your TV, is the point. I would expect Canam or someone on this thread can help.
Your load including 180 lbs of kayaks peeked my curiosity...do you know your total payload with all that stuff and hitch weight on your rig?

I do agree that the experts who have decades of experience, specifically with AS, that modify and reinforce certain perceived "unconventional" vehicles, most likely are correct in their calculations. I also find many forum "experts" that suggest or require a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel to tow a bambi. To address your point, the answer is yes, I am within the limits and very pleased with the overall performance of my rig and setup. In heavy winds or passing or being passed by a big rig I have never felt any instability or sway even at 80mph, which I rarely hit while towing. My rigs sweet spot and most efficient is at 72mph. I have traveled with this setup over 20k miles in all types of terrain and conditions and would not trade the comfort, reliability, functionality, and overall satisfaction for the added expense of a diesel and the ability to haul a cord of wood while towing up a hill at 80mph. I have been using diesels for business for years but on long trips and vacation, I truly enjoy the overall usefulness and maneuverability of our Sequoia. IMHO.

[shadrick5]

Originally Posted by rostam

You had a WOW moment going from an old to a new Sequoia. I'd bet that you will experience the same going from your Sequoia to an HD diesel (Not that you need to do that).

As for sedan tow vehicles, this forum has tens of thousands of members and I don't know of single member that tows a large Airstream with a sedan. As cool as they are, it seems the consensus is that sedan tow vehicles are not suitable for real world towing.

I tow job site trailers and equipment with diesel pickups and do understand the difference. My TV choice revolves around the overall comfort, reliability, functionality and usefulness of the Sequoia for our daily and vacation travel needs.

You may want to revisit that. The consensus by AS in the 60's and 70's was using a sedan. The vintage AS crowd has many sedans towing the AS. You can also youtube historical airstream and watch an Impala road test while towing an Ambassador. The cover of my '75 Sovereign owners manual has a sedan towing it. At any rate, I do believe there are many sedans currently towing an AS including Canam with a Jaguar sedan, although it would not fit our needs.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by shadrick5

I tow job site trailers and equipment with diesel pickups and do understand the difference. My TV choice revolves around the overall comfort, reliability, functionality and usefulness of the Sequoia for our daily and vacation travel needs.

You may want to revisit that. The consensus by AS in the 60's and 70's was using a sedan. The vintage AS crowd has many sedans towing the AS. You can also youtube historical airstream and watch an Impala road test while towing an Ambassador. The cover of my '75 Sovereign owners manual has a sedan towing it. At any rate, I do believe there are many sedans currently towing an AS including Canam with a Jaguar sedan, although it would not fit our needs.

There are only a few real full sized Sedans in production today and very, very few I'd tow with. Real frames and strong enough drive lines are generally not found in today's "sedans" which are really compact or mid sized cars anyway.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

There are only a few real full sized Sedans in production today and very, very few I'd tow with. Real frames and strong enough drive lines are generally not found in today's "sedans" which are really compact or mid sized cars anyway.

Correct. The 60's and 70's sedans were body on frame, rear wheel drive, and had a big V8 engine. None of the sedans today are like that. Still, the old sedans were good only for what was acceptable in 60's and 70's. With today's standards they are considered very poor (brakes, transmission, cooling system, etc). I've seen sedans tow a vintage trailer in a parade, etc. However, real use of a sedan as tow vehicle (i.e. travel across the country in all terrains and in today's jam-packed highway system) is literally non existent. A single example of sedan tow vehicle cited does not prove anything about suitability of current sedans as a tow vehicle -- actually helps prove the opposite.

[slowmover]

Weight capacity is not first concern. If a car can do it it willingly be the better choice. Some of us around did just that. With trailers as heavy as the ones we have at present. Only a modern car will do a better job. Some of the cars back then were unibody, and for good reason superior to the BOF design.

If the OP wants a new TV, fine. But don't get distracted by factory marketing formulas. An Expedition with fully independent suspension will be better than any pickup, as with a similar car or minivan.

Coming downgrade is more about the trailer brakes. Upgrade to hydraulic disc if it's a concern. Road speed up or down to "flow with traffic (or any other time) is the mark of ignorance. Steering, braking and handling trump all else.

Axle and tire limits matter. Not magic marketing formulas or chicken little.

Andrew Thomson consults at both Airstream and SAE. "Unconventional" is only for the historically and technically ignorant. Start with his website at Can Am RV and consider a consultation with the man who's firm has set up over 10k tow vehicle combinations. He takes what we all did forty yeArs ago and formularized it.

Unless one lives in the mountains then spec'ng a vehicle for that minor number of normal miles of usage is backwards thinking. A one ton isn't "more truck" it's literally less capable in what matters. And that's staying upright and lane centered.

An Airstream is more stable than any pickup. Try not to make the TV the weak link in the stability equation.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by shadrick5

I do agree that the experts who have decades of experience, specifically with AS, that modify and reinforce certain perceived "unconventional" vehicles, most likely are correct in their calculations. I also find many forum "experts" that suggest or require a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel to tow a bambi. To address your point, the answer is yes, I am within the limits and very pleased with the overall performance of my rig and setup. In heavy winds or passing or being passed by a big rig I have never felt any instability or sway even at 80mph, which I rarely hit while towing. My rigs sweet spot and most efficient is at 72mph. I have traveled with this setup over 20k miles in all types of terrain and conditions and would not trade the comfort, reliability, functionality, and overall satisfaction for the added expense of a diesel and the ability to haul a cord of wood while towing up a hill at 80mph. I have been using diesels for business for years but on long trips and vacation, I truly enjoy the overall usefulness and maneuverability of our Sequoia. IMHO.

OK I will bite; what are the stats on "your" payload with Kayaks, passengers, cargo, etc. you mention and what is the MFG. payload on your Sequoia? We would all like to understand what you have that may be that capable from Toyota MFG? Many folks looking for SUVs and want a 25' or larger AS, and don't need/want a generator...enlighten us, if you don't mind.

[Silver.Sanctuary]

Originally Posted by Hittenstiehl

On our recent outing the consensus was clear......

Looks like the 4CU New Year's Rally. I think there was a similar picture on my side of the Quail Group area... and my Tundra towing a 22 foot Safari was one of the lightest duty. Most were Ram Cummins Turbo Diesels...

[Vitaver]

I suggest you don't make the mistakes I did. Consider what you need to carry and plan your TV accordingly. I filled the bed of my pickup truck with a bunch of stuff I don't use, placed a topper that negates vertical space, etc. That can be a very expensive mistake. I know.

[Silver.Sanctuary]

Originally Posted by Alluminati

Huh???

My trailer weighs a ton more than your 25FB, and I'm towing with a Sequoia. Within the last 6 mos we towed over 7,000 miles.

We had no trouble descending steep mountain passes. With the tow/haul engaged, we downshifted before beginning descent, and easily and calmly eased down the mountains. No white knuckles here. Seldom even touched the brakes.

Sure, a large diesel has more torque, and can reach the summit faster. But the smaller diesels like the Ram EcoDiesel has only 5% more torque but 60% less horsepower than your Sequoia. Unless you are in a hurry, the Sequoia will get you there in plenty time.

Send me a PM. I'm very happy to tell our experience in detail if you want to hear it all. The Sequoia has been an excellent choice for us. Ask anything.

I am not sure the OP was suggesting the Sequoia didn't have power... but I think other considerations about carrying things in the passenger compartment may have weighed on the comment.

One thing to consider is that with a good solar system, you can leave the generators out unless you are going to camp in the middle of the Mohave in the summer. One poster on a thread in the Forum struck a chord when he commented that if he needed to use generators to run AC in the heat of the summer, he was camping in the wrong place!

Having said that, I was adamant about getting an SUV because I felt the vehicle would be more useful when not towing and get better gas mileage when not towing. Fortunately a couple of employees with significant towing experience convinced me otherwise. I bought the trailer first and then the tow vehicle, and fortunately I got a truck, which, by the way, doesn't drive like a truck.