About to give up...

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by jeneric

So, if I may shift the focus of this thread a bit...any thoughts on what to look for in a used F-150? Keep in mind it's for towing a 19' Bambi. Any advice is once again appreciated!

Before you start shopping you have to decide:
1) Do you want 4wd or not
2) Do you want a standard cab, extended cab, or crew cab

These all have $$$ attached to them and so it's something where either you need it or not and the truck should match. 2wd pickup trucks have awful traction but in Florida it may not matter much.

I consider pickup trucks fully fungible and so unless you are a Ford fanboi your search should also include similar products from Chevrolet, Dodge, and Nissan.

Evaluating a potential purchase is no different than with a car. Focus on overall condition not just major components. You can easily spend more on repairs for the brakes, suspension, steering, exhaust, AC, etc than on the engine and transmission.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by mutcth

...But to be fair, there are safety quibbles with other trucks in that time frame...

there are safety issues (way beyond quibbles) with ALL trucks and some very significant issues...

lightly loaded REARends,
rollover collapse,
frontal impacts,
side hits,
poor head/neck restraint/protections..
air bag placement (or lack)
crap flying out of the bed
what happens to the OTHER guy in the tiny car when HIT by a truck...

and so on...

now, then what does TOWING do to all of those issues?
_______

we make a LOT of compromises for towing, hopefully MOST of this is done with awareness of the issues.
_______

modern unibody car/suv designers do a great job of incorporating crash related features INTO the design, materials and construction...

the notion that the unibody "crumples" or collapses in a way that offers protection (first impact phase) is a good thing and proven...

the absorption of highENERGY in modern vehicle design is really something amazing.

EXCEPT none of those crumple zones are tested OR designed with towing a big silver BLOB, with an ARROW sticking OUT the front...
_______

the point being the PROVEN safety of modern cars/suvs and SOME trucks...

is largely irrelevant when towing, or at least a total UNknown on the crash data/protection side...

cheers
2air'

[jeneric]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all your replies. I'm sorry I don't have time to respond to each one, but please know I'm reading them all and following up with research, etc., on things you've suggested. I really don't know what I'd do without these forums! You guys are all so much more knowledgeable and willing to share info than any salesperson I've come across. Thank you!
Jennifer

[mutcth]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

EXCEPT none of those crumple zones are tested OR designed with towing a big silver BLOB, with an ARROW sticking OUT the front...

Like you said, there is a world of unknowns that you enter into with towing. I'd rather improve the "knowns."

Even if you compare body-on-frame designs, big improvements in crash protection have been made since the 1997 introduction of that generation F-150. You'd likely have a marked improvement in safety just going to the 2004- generation of F-150. Same thing goes for the Chevy, Dodge, or Toyota. (Of course, that costs more - tough to swallow for a third vehicle.)

But then again, I'm all for the handling and braking advantages of unibody tow vehicles, especially for trailers of this size...

Tom

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by mutcth

...But then again, I'm all for the handling and braking advantages of unibody tow vehicles, especially for trailers of this size...

then SUGGEST a vehicle for the o.p. to consider.

o.p. now wants 1/2 truck, used and mentions the 150.

10th generation 150s LOOK smaller than 9th or 11th generation 150s and sell at a reasonable USED price.

that's the ONLY message in my post.
________

so u question crash safety issues (which DO now appear 2b quibbling on your part) and like unibody MINIVANs...

i'm not getting into that tired, old. lame, never ending bs. and it's all been written into MANY hijacked threads already.
________

"this size" of the o.p. trailer in question is 4500 lbs with the SAME frontal air impact as a 34 footer...

it's a single axle HEAVY short trailer, not an old painted stream.

and may not be their LAST or smallest stream....
_________

i'm all for the occasional random exchange or going OFF topic in many threads...

but this 1 is about the o.p. finding a tow vehicle and apparently she's narrowed the choices (wisely)...

those are the only "knowns" in this thread...

cheers
2air'

[mutcth]

Look 2air, I don't mean to wee in your coffee. I wrote out a long and angry reply - but I'm going to keep it to the issues at hand.

The use of the word "quibble" was me casually understating the issue, like "Houston, we have a problem here." I should have used the phrase "Most trucks of that era had a safety issue that you could point at."

It is known that later-generation trucks had structures that were better optimized for crash protection. Trucks designed in the 2000s have better occupant protection than those in the 1990s. Times change. Safety levels advance. If I were to buy a F-150 for towing, I'd try and buy a later-model (2004-) truck.

Personally, I would sell one of the OP's Honda sedans and get a used Ridgeline or Acura MDX. I would like to have the safety gear and comfort of that vehicle for long vacation trips. I also am averse to paying to insure and maintain a 2nd (in my case) or 3rd (in her case) vehicle.

Why don't I list other options? Well, inexpensive unibody options are rare because most manufacturers only started building larger unibody-based SUVs in the last few years. The ones who did have them were the Europeans, so they've depreciated to still being relatively pricey (especially to maintain.) Buying one as a third car that costs more than the second car seems odd.

EDIT: There are plenty of other body-on-frame options too. A current-gen Nissan Frontier or Toyota Tacoma could tow this easily. A Ford Expedition or Dodge Durango gives you available stability control and curtain airbags for a relatively attainable price. But there is a big difference in what you can buy for $7500 vs $15,000.

Tom

[osolow]

I have a 09 Nissan frontier Pro 4X and this is the truck i will use to pull a 19 international if i can talk to wife into the trailer.

i have no doubt that this truck will pull this trailer, and what we feel we need for the trip with out a problem.
I would definitely suggest driving the Toyota again or a Nissan frontier before settling on the f150 it sounds also like your a Honda fan the ridgeline from Honda is a pretty impressive truck/SUV?.

[osolow]

Ford F150, extended cab, short bed, 4.6 liter maybe
Chevrolet (and the GMC clone, Sierra) 1500, 5.3 liter, extended cab, short bed maybe
Dodge Ram 1500, configured as above, 4.7 liter no way
Ford Expedition, 2wd, 4.6 liter no way
Chevy Tahoe/Suburban (Tahoe is slightly shorter wheelbase) 5.3 liter to big
Nissan Frontier, 2wd yep but 4wd
Toyota Tacoma V6, 2wd yep but 4wd
Chevy Astro, standard body (not ext) no way

in my opinion

a Nissan xterra, pathfinder (you can get a V8) 4runner v8 as well.

[2airishuman]

no coffee on this end, are you perhaps HOLDING a full bladder?

i am reasonably capable of recognizing urine when i see it and keeping my cup OUT of the 'stream...

so there is NO point in trying GUESS at someone else'z receptivity...

Originally Posted by mutcth

...Personally, I would sell one of the OP's Honda sedans and get a used Ridgeline or Acura MDX...

neither of which is "small"esh, or inexpensive as a 3rd vehicle, or particularly FUEL friendly.

also the ratings for BOTH 4 towing are marginal.

we've all got PERSONAL favorites or ideas but the goal is to offer feed back on the OPz personalized path to towing nirvana...
_________

early on it was suggested the op might LIMIT the options and get feedback on THOSE choices...

this suggestion was partly because any personal choice offered up by OTHERS might be bagged by someone with an agenda.

or just looking to argue.

and perhaps part of the reason she's ready to "give up"...

is related to the many pms apparently sent her way, with some VERY narrow bias on choices...

all of which sometimes serves to confuse some folks, sometimes.

of course PMing removes the ideas from OPEN debate or healthy counterpoints via the community.

_________

i would suggest ANYONE receiving PRIVATE notes be skeptical of the info IN those notes...

especially if NOT solicited.

the back channel is often just for spreading nonsense, toxic un truths and stuff that will NOT survive open review.

and is the favorite path of some vendors OR some ideas without merit.
__________

got a another quibble or private idea or long angry reply?



cheers
2air'

[brad1]

We have a '09 F150 and it's way more than needed for our 19' International. We also have a 6cyl Lexus 330 that's way too underpowered.

[mutcth]

is related to the many pms apparently sent her way, with some VERY narrow bias on choices...

the back channel is often just for spreading nonsense, toxic un truths and stuff that will NOT survive open review.

and is the favorite path of some vendors OR some ideas without merit.

So, you think you know what I sent her in PM? Or you're dismissing my explanation (sent PM and off-thread as to not sully things) to you as to what I wrote as "nonsense." Or that I'm a vendor or my ideas are without merit.

Not sure which way you're going, but you know you got my goat - so I guess you won in exciting forum tow vehicle battle, round #6478. Congrats.

got a another quibble or private idea or long angry reply?

Just can't print that here, I'm afraid. I tried to be civil, and you went accusatory. Whatever.

Tom

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by osolow

Ford F150, extended cab, short bed, 4.6 liter maybe
Chevrolet (and the GMC clone, Sierra) 1500, 5.3 liter, extended cab, short bed maybe
Dodge Ram 1500, configured as above, 4.7 liter no way
Ford Expedition, 2wd, 4.6 liter no way
Chevy Tahoe/Suburban (Tahoe is slightly shorter wheelbase) 5.3 liter to big
Nissan Frontier, 2wd yep but 4wd
Toyota Tacoma V6, 2wd yep but 4wd
Chevy Astro, standard body (not ext) no way

in my opinion

a Nissan xterra, pathfinder (you can get a V8) 4runner v8 as well.

Would you mind 'splaining your comments?
Why would the person that lives in Florida need a 4 wheel drive vehicle? It adds weight, which reduces tow capacity, reduces fuel mileage, and is something else to break.
The Astro has something like a 6,000 pound tow rating, and towed our 20' trailer well. You voted down an Expedition, presumably because of the short wheelbase, but then suggested an Xterra, with a very short wheelbase. Why?
You claim a Tahoe is too big, but suggest a pair of full size pickups that are even bigger than the Tahoe might be acceptable. Why? I won't even go there as far as the Dodge, some people just hate them.

[AUstreamer]

If you can wait until the end of the year, Ford will be introducing their 3.5 Ecoboost V6 into the truck line as a premium engine. This engine is supposed to provide the same HP and torque of a V8 with better fuel economy. No hard numbers yet, but looks like 23 mpg highway is on the low end. Of course, towing would decrease mileage a bit.

One thing I was concerned about was the V6 part, but Ford says this engine is made for towing and should do quite well at it. I will definitely take a look see at these before buying a truck, which should be in the next year or so..

[osolow]

Originally Posted by overlander63

Would you mind 'splaining your comments?
Why would the person that lives in Florida need a 4 wheel drive vehicle? It adds weight, which reduces tow capacity, reduces fuel mileage, and is something else to break.
The Astro has something like a 6,000 pound tow rating, and towed our 20' trailer well. You voted down an Expedition, presumably because of the short wheelbase, but then suggested an Xterra, with a very short wheelbase. Why?
You claim a Tahoe is too big, but suggest a pair of full size pickups that are even bigger than the Tahoe might be acceptable. Why? I won't even go there as far as the Dodge, some people just hate them.

they might not stay in Florida with the trailer the entire time they own it.

the one time you need 4wd it usually pays for it's self, then its

a bonus the times you need it afterwards. the fuel mileage on the smaller

V6 trucks be it 2wd or 4wd is on a couple of miles per gallon difference

besides that can change on how it you drive the truck. the towing rate is

only effected by a couple hundred pounds if that from 2wd to 4wd. the

Xterra pathfinder and 4runner are not as big as a Tahoe. as for the trucks

you never know when your going to need it besides pulling a trailer. like

moving something large or going to a home improvement store and buying

a new fridge, and I said Maybe they would be at the end of my list.

as for have more things on a truck or SUV that will brake for being

4wd that's like saying why buy a larger longer trailer there's just more to

break. as for the Dodge its not that i dislike them because i do, there just

a poorly made truck in every aspect. the expedition is a lager SUV which

the OP said they didn't want something very big and a little underpowered

with the 4.7 and i have known more then a few people that have owned

one, and there kinda expensive to repair.

at the end I said In my opinion

[osolow]

But i am still liking the ridgeline after looking a little closer at them on honda's website.

[jeneric]

Yikes, I didn't mean for this thread to start a fight. For the record, 2air, Tom's PMs to me were very helpful, and not "toxic untruths" or "nonsense" or trying to sell me anything. Your posts and ideas have also been helpful. So, please let's just play nice!

I've looked into several of the suggestions made -- esp. the Tacoma and Ridgeline. I do love Hondas. When it comes to U.S. carmakers, I'm partial to Ford due to a family connection, which is part of why we've been thinking F-150. And I think we're still leaning that way, because of the three options, it seems to provide the most towing power, wheelbase length, etc. We're new to towing, and don't want to be underpowered or nervous about driving in the hills. (Yes, we live in FL, but hope to be going to the mountains of Georgia and North Carolina at the very least, if not further afield.)

Like Terry, I'd like to understand some of osolow's comments -- esp. why the F-150 is just a "maybe."

[jeneric]

oops -- I was writing as you were posting, osolow. Thanks for the response. Though I'm still not quite sure why you didn't like the F-150.

[osolow]

It's cool you asked for opinions and that's what i gave.

some people just don't like other peoples opinions.

like a previous poster said just take them all with a grain of salt and what

works for you and helps you in your decision making go with it,

everything else will just be rubbish. I paraphrased a bit

Aim just not a ford guy i don't like the looks or interior of the truck but If you have a family connection then go with

it especially if it gets you a price break.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by jeneric

...I've looked into several of the suggestions made -- esp. the Tacoma and Ridgeline. I do love Hondas. When it comes to U.S. carmakers, I'm partial to Ford due to a family connection, which is part of why we've been thinking F-150...

clearly one should make their decisions based on WHATEVER moves them personally or technically or socially...

the ridgeline is front wheel drive, the towing capacity is RIGHT at your target trailer...

with NO room for UPsizing or much cargo.

hondaz OWN engineers and tech and factory support advise NOT USING a w/d hitch...

so how you will get SWAY control becomes a problem, without using a w/d hitch...

OR use one, and get support for HOW to do this (from the 'netnits)...

long thread on the ridge' here, some of the same issues but with a SMALLER trailer...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...-ii-21000.html

and there are others on this rig too.

yes some folks use one for towing and are happy with it.

again pay your bucks and take your shots...
___________

it is likely that ANY tv u might ask about or is publicly recommended has a thread or 2 with info for/against it...

but we can only point u toward was is publicly seen or suggested.
___________

as much as you might have a family connection to the F brand...

many others have an inherent HATE for any domestic vehicle (the 3)

and hide that bias in supposed engineering or safety factoids...

selling isn't always a product or service.

ideas are sold regularly,

but PUBLICLY posted ideas can at least be discussed/debated or countered so that the "help" is more balanced.

IF that is what the op wants...
____________

suggesting someone from florida take their rig to canada for a hitch or modifications is crazy...

in fact it is one of the ALL TIME DUMBEST and CRAZIEST suggestions on this forum...

((easily top 10, arguably top 5 and a sure candidate for ALL TIME TOP #1...dumbest/craziest ))

4 ANYbody who lives, works, buys insurance and is held liable by the u.s. legal system...

going to canada to have their towing rig setup is beyond wacky, still there are wacks who do just that...

for canadians the issues ARE different and their are occasional u.s. towin' folks who have remotely acceptable reasons for going to canada...

but to suggest that to/4 anyone in general HERE or with no history of towing...

is dumb...really really dumb. criminally dumb.

or suggests an agenda so OUT THERE as to be...beyond pluto.
____________

again towing with a fwd vehicle puts issues into play that are NOT obvious to the novice.
____________

other 'small looking' almost 1/2 ton trucks?

'yota also made a truck with the 'city boy' shape and flare side bed, that looks a tad like the 10th generation ford...

it is rated LESS in most configurations than the 150, but would work, barely.

once again scan the TL ratings guide which is online and goes back many many years...

or ask about a specific rig and watch 4 the answers and 'counters, rolling in on the keyboards...

cheers
2air'

[jeneric]

OK, I got it, osolow. Thanks for explaining!