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Old 11-23-2009, 01:07 PM   #1
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18 Wheeler Air Flow

While reading about an accident in a recent thread, I had also
noticed concerning movements when 18 wheelers passed me
going in the same direction. So I wanted to see what ya'll thought
about this and drew some images to illustrate my initial thoughts.
Attached Images
    
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:03 PM   #2
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hi kenneth

nice pics.

web search 'bow wave' and winnow the results for rvs/trucks...

all sorts of wave pix will appear and nasa research and so on...

or search here for EITHER term (bow/wave) in the towing/hitch sub forum....

a turbulent bunch of threads will rise to the surface.
__________

some of those threads are lively, while others are jejune, dull as dishwater exchanges with the occasional PUSH/SHOVE ...

lots of castigating too, but only the members with RANK R allowed 2 use this approach.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...rol-37238.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...res-37009.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...ing-23695.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...bar-12309.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f142...trol-3091.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...ing-38292.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ion-22248.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ars-12157.html

of course there are EXAMPLE thread scattered about that add to the drama, grab our attention and learning...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f48/our-loss-35568.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...eam-32547.html

for graphics i like hiho's pics in this thread the best (some squeeling/crash/broken glass audio would enhance them) ...

there is also good music and diy demos of engineering wizardry to round out the postings...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ied-37000.html

but dozens of haha threads have info on bow waves and how they do/don't feel or affect steering control...

cheers
2air'
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:23 PM   #3
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2Air - thanks for the references. I suppose
my question is related to "what can the operator do
at pic 1?
at pic 2?
at pic 3?

It seems we have folks who know what
they are doing and have the right stuff
in place on the rig. And still...that BLAST
of wind comes by and all bets are off.

It concerns me in view of my own experiences
and the recent family that had the "roll-over".
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennethowens View Post
2Air - thanks for the references. I suppose my question is related to "what can the operator do...
wild guess, you haven't actually READ the links yet...

'what 2 do or NOT do' is covered in many of those threads, by experts and idiots.

and many other threads provide insight and guidance, but without the ability to practice the moves on line.

sometimes the best thing 2 do is NOTHING but hold on...

since the b/w will pass.

corrective action often leads to MORE trouble.

so just pick a maneuver (steering, braking, accelerating, shifting, wacking the controller) and some1 will post the perfect steps...

with the haha/pp steering control is often just 2 fingers even with b/waves.
________

i don't know what roll-over prompted this thinking or your concerns, which are important.

gotta link?

or perhaps add your own experience and someone will sooth/fix or otherwise address the turbulence

cheers
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:40 PM   #5
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maybe this one... http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...ngs-56634.html
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:02 PM   #6
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ah.

wicked awful.

and see they are now considering a haha/pp.

hate to post ANY hitch stories, especially when connected to others' misfortune, but....

i met a senior retired pilot having repairs in j/c a few years ago.

brand new 34/slide towed with 2500HD and a haha.

crossing kentucky in a big rain he was passed by 2 18s going way faster than him or conditions permitted.

the first semi slowed after passing because another vehicle was in FRONT of the semi, in the left lane but not visible due to the RAIN.

the 2nd drafting semi SLAMMED on the brakes just as pulling up2 his left side...

there was a LOT of turbulence at that moment.

he felt a little nudge (assumed to be b/wave) from the truck/s but just kept driving at the same speed, without doing anything.

his wife mentioned that the trucks seems a "little close" as they passed.

at the next rest area they stopped for lunch and to wait out the rain.

upon inspection he discovered the ENTIRE street side of his 'stream scuffed and INDENTED with black circular markings....

apparently 1 of the semis had RUBBED against the trailer, probably the 2nd one.
_________

he was totally confounded that the impact of this contact/disturbance was just barely noticed while driving.

and of course he became a "it' happened to me" testimonial giver for these fancy hitches.

cheers
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennethowens View Post
2Air - thanks for the references. I suppose
my question is related to "what can the operator do
at pic 1?
at pic 2?
at pic 3?

It seems we have folks who know what
they are doing and have the right stuff
in place on the rig. And still...that BLAST
of wind comes by and all bets are off.

It concerns me in view of my own experiences
and the recent family that had the "roll-over".
If you have heavy sway movement, as you indictae in your photo's, then I would look at the complete rigging to assure that it's rating is correct, properly installed, and properly adjusted.

A slight pushing feeling is not uncommon when being over taken by a big rig.

The type sway control you may be using, plays a huge part of the ability to control, or not control, during that situation.

What you can do, in anticipation of a sway, from the big rig, is have your hand on the brake controller. As the truck begins to pass the trailer bumper, activate the brake controller, ever so slightly, without taking your foot off the gas pedal.

That will not slow you down, but it will cause enough brake drag from the trailer, to minimize the sway issue.

Andy
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:04 PM   #8
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I should have added, that when on a 2 lane highway, and a big rig is coming towards you, slightly apply the brake controller, just before the front of the truck is even with the front of your tow vehicle, about 20 to 25 feet usually works.

Andy
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:23 PM   #9
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As a truck driver I watched the reaction of RV's often. We, most of us, made it a point to pass as far away as possible. I hope that readers recognize that many truck drivers would love to be "an obstacle on the road" (said kindly), and many are, in off hours.

When I see them coming, my first reaction is to get off of the cruise control and make sure forward momentum is "positive".

While I rarely worry about truck drivers (and I'll use the CB to point out the jerks by company name, direction, etc; I called on and called IN one jerk in Arkansas for the way he passed a FEMA trailer hauler a few years ago), using ones mirrors is a bit of a skill that ought to be thought through more often. There are ways to handle oncoming or overtaking traffic and it all depends on using the space one has to maneuver at the speed being run. What is behind is sometimes more important than what is ahead.

There is NO substitute for the best hitch and rigging. This is a given, IMO.

As always, thanks for the links, 2Air, I appreciate the directions to more reading.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:48 PM   #10
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you are welcome red'.

it IS interesting that NOT ONE thread here has 'bow wave' in the title.

as a result most of the discussions of this issue are sprinkled into other threads requiring the reader to scan a lot.

here are some other useful links to this issue...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...not-26261.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...nts-40264.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ars-23809.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...why-21559.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ace-58335.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...nger-1887.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...rol-17986.html

and as expected MOST of the haha/pp threads touch occasionally on the b/w issue and control.

cheers
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:12 PM   #11
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Yep, the bow wave of a big truck is it's most interesting feature to watch from the cab. I could cry the number of times the brain-dead "trying" to pass me would get caught behind it, and just sit there. When seconds are more accurately counted as minutes.

Or, to see it's affect in the mirrors on other traffic in either direction. It's a two-moment phenomenon as both the tractor and trailer exert separate and combined pressure.

When following a big truck, observe the effects on the verge grasses, you will see this one-two punch and THEN the trailer rear effect.

There is "general agreement" among truck drivers that four-wheelers, all of 'em, should not be able to have cruise control installed and used until they passed a test demonstrating proficiency. I leave no one exempt, myself included. The number of four wheelers who pass a big truck with knowledge of what to do can be reckoned at fewer than one in every several hundred. On a good day.
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:22 PM   #12
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kenneth - I think I started you thinking about producing your diagram. You got it exactly right.

I just finished driving 2700 miles of I-35 (consider that the entire Duluth-San Antonio length is only 1403 miles...). Gave me lots of time to observe and think - except I wasn't towing.

You might do one of three things:
  1. Best - Be alert & apply appropriate minor reaction to steer through it.
  2. Sleep or text through the experience? (ie, don't observe, don't anticipate, do nothing) 99.9% of the time your oscillations may be more than us following behind might like to see. It's the 0.1% that will make you throw your phone out the window ... if your fellow passengers survived the experience. [anesthesiology or flying = 99% boredom + 1% sheer panic] Not paying attention is just plain dangerous.
  3. Worst - Stiffen your arms and create 'pilot induced oscillations.' See ah-one, anna-two. That film of the space shuttle makes you wonder where we're recruiting astronauts! I'd wear a diaper too...
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:59 PM   #13
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YEARS ago, we drove the interstate in a home-made rv based on a '61 Ford Econoline cabover truck that had tandem rear axles, a huge rear overhang and 1/2 turn slack in the steering. An overtaking semi had the effect you draw of the rig w/o a trailer.

Watching the mirrors was super important. As a rig overtook, you had to turn the slack toward the shoulder, the turn back toward the rig as it overtook. 1/2 a turn with extended arms on the wheel is quite a dramatic driving manuver.

1st time passengers were absoutely freaked out, 'specially since we didn't tell them the speed-o-meter was reading 25% too high and it looked like we were doing 80+ mph.

I can feel an overtake of my current setup acting basically like your diagram.
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Old 11-23-2009, 07:53 PM   #14
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Side note

Has anyone else noticed that they get worse push from the box type trucks such as the moving vans?
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:35 PM   #15
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Watching the mirrors was super important. As a rig overtook, you had to turn the slack toward the shoulder, the turn back toward the rig as it overtook. 1/2 a turn with extended arms on the wheel is quite a dramatic driving maneuver.

I can feel an overtake of my current setup acting basically like your diagram.
Yeah, we had a big ol' motorhome like that in the '70's. 55 mph was plenty fast. I usually had the wheel fairly far over in winds, waiting for the moment they slacked. It was just part of training.

Never forget my old man, p.o.d and coming forward as I was driving the six of us eastbound one afternoon along I-10 'cause I had us one wheelset over on the shoulder and was still rolling. He didn't see what I had, a big truck coming along at over 100 mph. The steering correction I'd have needed to stay in Lane 2 would have been too much. At 17 I'm sure I'd never been passed at such a speed by so much mass with a speed differential of 50 mph. Half a dozen troopers and a helicopter had that desperado over at the I-10/I-20 split near Van Horn, TX about 5-miles ahead.

As to pulling the trailer, I "feel" the truck bow wave as it hits my pickup bed topper, not the trailer. A Hensley (or PP or PR) is worth it. Next upgrade to the TV is a rear anti-roll bar and some poly bushings on the front one. Truck already has IFS and rack & pinion steering. I have to stay with my Load Range E tires (stock size and type), and am undecided about the rear suspension springs at present.

The perspective from the lower point on the road (TV, versus tractor cab) is that it is harder to "see" the point at which the bow wave will hit. From one big truck to another it is easy to gauge.
I'm sorry I no longer have access to truck safety statistics and training guidelines.
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Old 11-24-2009, 04:40 AM   #16
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Best description of tractor-trailer "bow wave" (involving a wrongful death suit from an accident on I-81, Virginia, in 1986):

Garst, a driver with over 20 years' experience in driving vehicles pulling horse trailers and campers, testified that just prior to the accident, he had been driving at a speed between 50 to 55 miles per hour in the left lane of the two northbound lanes of I-81. As Garst got to the bottom of a hill, he noticed a tractor-trailer "coming right fast" in the right lane, and "about the time that the tractor-trailer got to the rear of the camper, [he] felt the wind force pushing the camper."

As Garst felt the wind force push the camper to its left, the front of the Suburban was also forced to its left. This caused both vehicles to begin "swinging." Garst unsuccessfully tried to stop the "swinging" by turning the Suburban slightly back to the right and applying both vehicles' brakes. Then Garst applied the trailer brakes and accelerated the Suburban, but the more corrective action he took, "the worse everything got." Garst testified that "then, all of a sudden, everything went around, and that's the last thing I remember."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Walter A. Johnson, who had made government-funded studies of the wind forces from tractor-trailers and their effects on other vehicles on the highway, qualified as an expert witness in the field of automobile and tractor-trailer aerodynamics. Johnson testified about the effect of such wind forces upon a vehicle being passed by a tractor-trailer.

According to Johnson, the front of a tractor-trailer pushes the air out of its way as it proceeds down the highway, creating a "bulging out of the wind [which] is referred to as a bow wave. It is much the same as a bow wave of a boat going through the water." At the aft, or rear end, of the tractor-trailer, the air is sucked back in behind the vehicle. As the bow wave progresses along the side of the overtaken vehicle, the wave's force pushes on those parts of the overtaken vehicle closest to that force, and as the rear end of the tractor-trailer passes the other vehicle, the force of the suction pulls on the parts of the overtaken vehicle closest to its force. Johnson testified that the bow wave and suction forces grow disproportionately at higher speeds and closer proximities between the vehicles.


Passenger, Girl Killed by Unknown Truck Driver Get Justice - Roanoke, Virginia | The Krasnow Law Firm

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Old 11-24-2009, 05:17 AM   #17
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Of 2Airs links above, reading them (re-reading in the main), these single posts stuck out:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/223871-post11.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/442188-post41.html

Understanding trailer sway

http://www.airforums.com/forums/467652-post8.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/248511-post46.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/220472-post50.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/245990-post24.html

Loss of control "caused" by other traffic on the road, is, of course, one part of a larger picture.

From a post I was going to make on another forum, concerning the "necessity" of a WDH on a 16' cargo trailer:

DODGE
2004 Ram Truck Diesel
(Owners Manual; co. 2003 DaimlerChrysler Corporation)

pp. 278

TRAILER WEIGHT AND TRAILER TONGUE WEIGHT

"Equalizing hitch[es] are required for CLASS III or IV trailer hitches and tongue weights above 350-lbs (159kg) and use of trailer sway is recommended".

I don't see trailer type being excluded. To those who say that a well-loaded cargo trailer won't sway I would only agree that the sway is lessened in comparison to a large TT. Take a look at the design of the U-Haul 12-footer. It's far better than what most can buy, and it trails beautifully.

But take a longer look at ANY trailer type you are following to see the "disconnect" between TV and trailer. The "looser" it is (design, speed; hitch rigging) the more wiggle you'll see.

Disbelieve those who say that they have driven X-miles with no incident. What they observe (and feel) is to be severely discounted when following them in traffic. Even the best "little" trailer can flip a truck under unlucky circumstances.

Pretty much any trailer of 2,500-lbs meets the TW rule above (375-lbs @15%), and it only makes sense to avoid trouble. To minimize risk.

There are adaptors for single pole trailers to fit a WDH with anti-sway.



I've learned quite a lot from the threads and problems posed by members of Airforums on this, and, as my parents had a loss-of-control accident more than a dozen years ago, I was determined to avoid that if at all possible.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:24 AM   #18
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This is great information. It has helped me understand the dynamics at play in these situations.

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Old 11-24-2009, 08:33 AM   #19
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Info-Reading-thanks

To begin a response: Thank you for the information, related reading
in previous threads and general feedback. Folks here are good folk.

My main conclusion at this point is that the "Hand Controller" of the
trailer brakes seems to be the best defense at the point where the
blast of air hits the rear of the trailer (through steps 2 and 3 in the
images above).

I thought about this off/on all yestreday evening. Another conclusion:

60MPH = 1 mile per minute
1 mile = 5280 feet
5280 / 60 seconds = 88 ft/sec
So......
60MPH = 88 ft/sec
30MPH = 44 ft/sec
15MPH = 22 ft/sec

If an 18 wheeler passes at an est speed of 80MPH, and I am towing
at a speed of 60MPH - that is a difference of 20MPH - or - calculated
29.33ft/sec.

If these numbers are very close, then a family with a 30ft trailer
would experience steps 2 and 3 above in approx 1 second. I think
that what happened to the family in Thoughts and Blessings...
could happen to any of us regardless of all the best rigging.
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:06 AM   #20
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Have done some more reading around:

Post by ib516 (thread on RV.net)

"What contributes to trailer sway? A number of things. Top suspects on my list are:
- Side winds
- Trailer tongue higher than it should be (level or slight nose down is best)
- Too much weight at the rear of the trailer - this creates more angular momentum once any swaying begins. More weight further away from the trailers CG acts like a lever and can cause sway to increase once it starts. This is especially true if the weight is water which can slosh or a weight that can shift.
- Soft TV suspension and tire sidewalls
- A phenomenon known as "rearward amplification" (in my collision reconstruction training anyway, I'm sure there are other terms for it) - it's kind of like cracking a whip. For example, in a A or B train (OTR truck with two trailers attached, a large one, than a smaller one behind). The rear most trailer does the most swaying first, and will "pull" the other trailer around which will begin to pull the rear of the tractor side to side. The effect is the same in OTR trucks that rollover. The rear of the rearmost trailer can be 90* to the roadway (ie: on it's side) before that motion is transferred to the power unit. The driver never feels the truck begin to roll until it's waaaay too late. The trailer will act like a spring, "wind up" tension, then slam the power unit on it's side. I've seen video of it. Very interesting.

My training on this is mostly based around commercial vehicles (OTR trucks). The instructor was the former head of collision reconstruction for BC (Canada). He investigated hundreds od commercial vehicle rollovers (tip overs) in hilly/mountainous BC - mostly at the bottom of a grade on a corner.

Tried to keep the explanations from sounding too "scientific".


RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Towing: Dynamics of trailer sway 101? The basics?



Post by Ron Gratz (from a thread on RV.NET)

"When the bow wave of the passing truck hits the rear of the TT, the TT's center of gravity will be a "dynamic pivot point". The right-directed force on the rear of the TT will produce a left-directed force on the rear of the TV via the ball coupler.

The left-directed force will push the rear of the TV toward the left and will cause the TV to yaw CW. This will make it seem as though the TV and TT are being sucked in; but in fact, at this point, the force on the TT is away from the truck.

As the truck moves forward relative to the TT, the bow wave eventually will be pushing toward the right on the front of the TT and the rear of the TV. Also, there can be a time during which the high-pressure bow wave is pushing right on the front of the TT and the low-pressure area at the rear of the tractor is pulling left on the rear of the TT. This will increase the right-directed push on the rear of the TV.

With a Hensley Arrow, [a Pro-Pride] or a PullRite, the initial yawing of the TV is reduced because the lateral force from the TT is applied closer to the TV's rear axle. With a Dual Cam or Equal-i-zer, the initial yawing is reduced because the hitch tends to stiffen the connection between TV and TT.

Some things which can minimize the effect are:

1] Get a good sway control hitch.

2] Ensure there is good weight distribution on the TV's axles.

3] Move to the right when you see the truck about to pass.

4] Don't overcompensate with the steering corrections when you feel the initial movement and yawing of the TV.

RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Towing: Interstate Towing ?



Andy Thomson, on Eliminating Trailer Sway

http://www.rvlifemag.com/file316/hitchhints316.html


Some big truck related info, FYI. (It is not directly related to the TT/TV combination as to using trailer braking).

DRIVING COMBINATION VEHICLES SAFELY
Driving Combination Vehicles Safely

A SIMPLE MODEL FOR DETERMINATION OF (TRACTOR-TRAILER) JACKKNIFING
http://fcrar.ucf.edu/papers/fa1_omgt_fau.pdf

I remember one company safety director repeating that slowing down was job one, with a six-second follow of the vehicle ahead (when loaded) crucial.

I prefer traveling at about 63 mph -- on an open road -- as I can quickly drop a gear, touch the brakes and be at 50 mph (where I can maneuver, nastily, all day long). And I detest traveling in a pack as there is NEVER any room to maneuver; whether or not I cause that/those maneuver[s].
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