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Old 10-12-2012, 04:34 PM   #57
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It think it is amusing that he says he can't sell you tires for your trailer, followed by "I appreciate you business".

I am not going to dispute anything he said. However this is my belief why he said it. Simply put, they do not think it is a worthwhile investment to do the research and testing just to enter a small market like trailer tires. In addition, in order to recommend use of their passenger rated tires on trailers they would have to do a bunch of research and testing. Once again not worth the investment. This way they cannot be subject to blame if someone "misuses" their product.

Ken

It is my secret (don't tell anyone) belief that they do not want the Michelin name on any tire made to the low requirements for ST tires.
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:24 AM   #58
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Once upon a time there was no such thing as an ST tire. We all just used "truck tires" (LT).
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:55 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
October 12, 2012


Hello,


Thank you for your email. We welcome the opportunity to serve you.

In regards to the email you sent stating:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not find a ST rated Michelin tire, nor do I find any recommendation for using LT tires on a RV travel trailer on this website.
What Michelin tire is recommended for a RV travel trailer?
Does Michelin warranty LT tires used for RV trailers?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

ST (Special Trailer) tires are constructed with heavier materials in the casing as compared to passenger rated tires giving the ST tires more strength and load carrying capacity. ST tires also have a stiffer sidewall and flex less making them more compatible with the trailer’s suspension system.

We do not recommend using passenger tires on trailers that specify ST tires. If the trailer manufacturer calls for ST tires, it is important to replace with ST tires in order to maintain the load requirement.

Unfortunately, we do not have anything that is equivalent to an ST rated tire.


Sincerely,

Consumer Care Department
Certified Michelin Product Expert

Interesting in the response made no mention of truck tires (LT) and the person responded as if you were asking about using a passenger tire. The kicker in this is the statement that ST tires are constructed to carry heavy trailer loads. Hmm...if I look at the Uniroyal 16" LT tires on my 3/4 ton van and my new 16" Michelin's that I put on my Classic (both are the same size and E rated), both brands carry the same load rating. While one could foster the idea that my Classic is "always" heavy and my van is not, there doesn't seem to be any warning with the van tires to not carry heavy weights for extended periods. I would assume then that from a weight standpoint, the tires functionally equivalent.

It comes down to the real difference in the two tires is side wall construction and there is no doubt that the geometry relative to the placement of the tires and the stresses involved when turning and backing are different when compared to my tires on my van. Hence the difference in side walls in ST tires which in those circumstances may be a benefit. I would assume that if either tire is inflated below the maximum side wall pressures, the ST tire will have a lower risk of breaking the sidewall bead than the LT when undergoing the stresses imposed during a hard pivot of the trailer. I think an LT inflated to max cold pressure will provide enough strength to resist those forces.

The problem is that the advantage of ST tires used on trailers is offset due to the components and standards used to build ST tires vs. LT. ST's cannot stand up to the combination of heat, speed, and load. Those of you living in the areas of Tx and Az have proven that concept over and over. Those of us a little further north still deal with some pretty hot conditions and our failures eventually show up. The belts on those tires deteriorate and eventually start to slip.

What Michelin wrote back was what I consider "company speak" where they will not officially endorse the use of their LT tires due to perceived liability issues. The proof of whether the LT tires will hold up will come in the next 2 to 3 years from those of us making the jump. Further proof will come if we see any trailer manufacturer make the jump. Obviously Airstream is listening and the Eddie Bauer model is their test bed.

Jack
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:34 AM   #60
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After reading about this on dealer, manufacturer and government web sites, I am left with the following impressions. (I cannot find this issue addressed directly, so this is conjecture.)

It appears that the term passenger tire refers to tires whose label starts with P such as P225/15. However, it seems the term passenger rated tire is not an official one, but refers to any tire rated to carry people including drivers. This seems to, in conversation, include LT tires. It also only seems to come up when trailers are mentioned.

I may have jumped tor a wrong conclusion, but I cannot find these terms definitively defined anywhere. It anyone knows where these terms are discussed in more detail, please post a link.

This is one possible explanation for why a question about LT tires evokes a response about passenger rated tires. Here is another reason I believe this. The dealer I bought my LT tires from called them passenger rated tires, when he was telling me they did not recommend them on trailers. He looked at me strangely when I said "They're not passenger tires, they're truck tires", so I dropped it.

Ken
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:52 PM   #61
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Yesterday I sent off another inquiry to Michelin, trying to get a more specific answer to my questions, re: the light truck tires, how/if they warranty them when installed on a RV trailer. I specifically asked about the LT tires being installed by manufacturers on some of their new trailers. If they respond I'll post their response here.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:50 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
Yesterday I sent off another inquiry to Michelin, trying to get a more specific answer to my questions, re: the light truck tires, how/if they warranty them when installed on a RV trailer. I specifically asked about the LT tires being installed by manufacturers on some of their new trailers. If they respond I'll post their response here.
It would be also interesting to know how the tire warranty is handled on the Eddie Bauer trailers. Does Michelin provide the warranty or does Airstream?

Ken
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:33 PM   #63
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how would michelin reply to replacing LT tires on a trailer that came with LT tires? (such as older Airstreams)
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:34 PM   #64
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All tires are designed for different uses Lt (light truck) for example were designed tested and built for light trucks.The have not been built or tested for travel trailers (or wheel barrows) so if you ask the manufacturer how will they would perform on your wheel barrow(or travel trailer) due to litigation issues they will not and cannot answer the question.
But light trucks go down the road with these on.They turn corners,they also have weight added to them in the form of payload.So make your own decision whether or not they will work on a travel trailer(tough question).
Oh also I might add they do actually stamped on the side of every tire the maximum weight each tire is rated to be safely used for .And the maximum tire pressure is also stamped on every tire.If you inflate to maximum air pressure listed on the tire you can safely carry the maximum weight that is also stamped on the tire.
Now here is where you have to pay close attention if you inflate the tire to a lower pressure than what is stamped on the tire it will still haul weight but that weight will be less than that is spelled out by the stamped amount on the tire.
These lesser air pressure weight ratings are usually listed on mfg's site.
No you do not have to run the max rated air pressure in your tires.Only if you need the max weight rating for the tire would you be required to do this.
Nobody explains this to their tire reps anymore.That is why the confusion.
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:02 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w7ts

It would be also interesting to know how the tire warranty is handled on the Eddie Bauer trailers. Does Michelin provide the warranty or does Airstream?

Ken
Typically the tire manufacturers provide the warranty. If I remember correctly when I bought my Classic new, the documentation provided by Airstream included a packet from Goodyear which included their warranty terms. Same goes when I bought my GMC van new. There was separate documentation from Uniroyal regarding warranty.

This is an interesting question as to how Airstream and Michelin are dealing with this. You would think that if Michelin is providing warranty information which is passed though with the trailer documents, then obviously Michelin is approving the use of that specific tire with the Eddie Bauer model. Quite honestly if I took a tire into a Michelin dealer, he probably would have no idea as to the vehicle it was mounted on. In my case National tire mounted my tires on my supplied wheels. They have no idea as to what type of vehicle the tires are on. Technically I could say my van since it uses the same exact size tire.

Jack
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:18 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by jcanavera View Post
Typically the tire manufacturers provide the warranty. If I remember correctly when I bought my Classic new, the documentation provided by Airstream included a packet from Goodyear which included their warranty terms. Same goes when I bought my GMC van new. There was separate documentation from Uniroyal regarding warranty.

This is an interesting question as to how Airstream and Michelin are dealing with this. You would think that if Michelin is providing warranty information which is passed though with the trailer documents, then obviously Michelin is approving the use of that specific tire with the Eddie Bauer model. Quite honestly if I took a tire into a Michelin dealer, he probably would have no idea as to the vehicle it was mounted on. In my case National tire mounted my tires on my supplied wheels. They have no idea as to what type of vehicle the tires are on. Technically I could say my van since it uses the same exact size tire.

Jack
Once Discount Tire decided that I had researched what I was doing, and was either going to buy from them or someone else, they only required me to sign a statement saying that I understood that these wheels and tires where not the same as the ones that were supplied with the vehicle (trailer in this case). They also did some research on load ratings. After that they gave me their standard warranty and free services. No mention was made of any reduction in Michelin's warranty. They also offered me their extended warranty, which I declined. Not that any of this proves anything.

Ken
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:26 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w7ts

Once Discount Tire decided that I had researched what I was doing, and was either going to buy from them or someone else, they only required me to sign a statement saying that I understood that these wheels and tires where not the same as the ones that were supplied with the vehicle (trailer in this case). They also did some research on load ratings. After that they gave me their standard warranty and free services. No mention was made of any reduction in Michelin's warranty. They also offered me their extended warranty, which I declined. Not that any of this proves anything.

Ken
I bought mine from the Discount Tire Direct Internet site. No disclaimer to sign since they were shipping the tires with no idea of the vehicle I was putting them on. I also declined the extended warranty offer.

Jack
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:42 PM   #68
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I bought mine from the Discount Tire Direct Internet site. No disclaimer to sign since they were shipping the tires with no idea of the vehicle I was putting them on. I also declined the extended warranty offer.

Jack
My wife convinced me to have them mount the tires. Sometimes she has a good idea. It went great and I was able to stand right there and supervise/observe. Supervision was limited to where they placed the jacks. The shop supervisor took a lot of interest in the project. As far as pressure is concerned, he told me that they would only inflate to the max PSI (80) and recommended that I continue to use that pressure.

Ken
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:08 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w7ts View Post
After reading about this on dealer, manufacturer and government web sites, I am left with the following impressions. (I cannot find this issue addressed directly, so this is conjecture.)

It appears that the term passenger tire refers to tires whose label starts with P such as P225/15. However, it seems the term passenger rated tire is not an official one, but refers to any tire rated to carry people including drivers. This seems to, in conversation, include LT tires. It also only seems to come up when trailers are mentioned.

I may have jumped tor a wrong conclusion, but I cannot find these terms definitively defined anywhere. It anyone knows where these terms are discussed in more detail, please post a link.

This is one possible explanation for why a question about LT tires evokes a response about passenger rated tires. Here is another reason I believe this. The dealer I bought my LT tires from called them passenger rated tires, when he was telling me they did not recommend them on trailers. He looked at me strangely when I said "They're not passenger tires, they're truck tires", so I dropped it.

Ken
Perhaps I can help here.

The tire industry uses the term "passenger car tires' to mean both tires that have the letter "P" in front of the tire size and their metric equivalents that don't have a "P" in front of the tire size. These tires are designed for uses on passenger cars. These tires CAN be used on trailers with a 10% reduction in load carrying capacity (The reduction also applioes to usage on light trucks - say pickups.)

I come back to that point in a minute.

Side note: The term "passenger rated" does NOT have a meaning within the industry, but you will find folks using the term and similar sounding phrases, when they really mean "P type tires".

OK, back on topic:

LT tires are a group of tires that are designed for usage on light trucks (again, pickups), and, in general, have higher loads that "P" type tires. The letters "LT" are used in front of the tire size and the Europeans don't use the letters, but bnteresting, the Japanese put the letters behind the tire size.

I'll come back to that as well.

ST tires are a group of tires that are similar to LT type tires. They can carry higher load than "P" type tires - albeit at higher pressures, but at pressures similar to LT type tires.

A practical example:

P245/75R16 Standard Load: Max load 2271 # @ 35 psi (please note, the tire's sidewall COULD say max pressure 44 psi or 51 psi, but the relationship delineated earlier in this sentence still applies)

P245/75R16 Standard load - used on a light truck or trailer: 2065# @ 35 psi (again, the same comment about the max pressure listed on the sidewall)

LT245/75R16 Load Range C: 2205# @ 50 psi

LT245/75R16 Load Range D: 2623# @ 65 psi

LT245/75R16 Load Range E: 3042# @ 80 psi

LT245/75R16 Load Range F: 3415# @ 95 psi

ST245/75R16 Load Range B: 2090# @ 35 psi

ST245/75R16 Load Range C: 2600# @ 50 psi

ST245/75R16 Load Range D: 3000# @ 65 psi

ST245/75R16 Load Range E: 3420 @ 80 psi

Notes: First, recognize that there are different tire standards throughout the world. The US standards have letters in front of (and sometimes behind) the tire size to designate the type of service the tire is designed for. The Europeans don't use letters at all, and the Japanese only sometimes use the letters.

- and for those who will point this out, both European and Japanese tire manufacturers will build tires to the US standards and use the letters.

Second, I chose this "size" (meaning dimensions) because it is pretty much the only "size" common to all 3 types. I recognize that the ST version isn't made by anyone, but it does appear in the ST standards and could be made if someone had a mind to. Nevertheless, what I am about to write would apply regardless.

P type tires have a lower load carrying capacity than LT type tires. This is why tire manufacturers do NOT condone the use of P type tires on trailers. - however, if done carefully, P type tires can be successfully used on trailers. Just don't expect a tire manufacturer to say so.

LT type tires have a lower load carrying capacity than ST type tires. This is why tire manufacturers do not condone the use of LT type tires in place of ST type tires. - however, if done carefully, LT type tires can be used successfully in place of ST type tires. Just don't expect a tire manufacturer to say so.

Any questions?
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:51 AM   #70
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.................................................. ....

Any questions?
First of all thank you very much for this explanation. It was very helpful.

What seems to be the biggest bone of contention here right now is how to determine what pressure is appropriate when using P or LT tires on trailers. Because of the reasons you stated manufacturers don't seem to want to discuss this.

The two schools of thought here are:

1. Use the manufacturer's' PSI vs Load charts.

2. always use the maximum PSI on the tire sidewall.

Is one or the other the best practice, or is there some other method we haven't discussed?

Ken
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