16" Sendel Wheels & 16" Michelin LTX Tires

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by AIRTRVL

At the end af 2016 we traded in our 2014 23fb and ordered a 2017 25fb twin. We took delivery of our new AS yesterday. The new AS came from the factory with ST225 75R 15 load range E Goodyear Endurance tires. It also came with Mcgard lug nuts. My salesman told me that this is the new standard tire on Airstream's. Has anyone had any experance with these tires? I'm going to install Michelins on my AS and put these Endurance tires on a tandom axle cargo cargo trailer that I have.

AIRTRVL, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...usa-157249.htm

This link is the first I had heard of the Endurance line and I doubt there is much actual experience yet.

Interesting that your '17 had the GYE's as OEM. I was under the impression that the optional Michelin's were now becoming OEM.


I must admit this twist is a new option to consider as I was planning on the Nokians LT235 75R 15 load range E so I can keep my OEM 15's. My first thought was similar to crispyboy #37 of the above thread..."It's not a very handsome tire, actually down right ugly but if it works I'm game." Nailed it!. Certainly the Nokians come with some meat a better price but with less distribution that the GYE's will have.

Bob

[switz]

With Goodyear and "ST type tire in the same sentence, I would look elsewhere.

The ST is the cheapest tire the trailer manufactures can find to get the trailer out the door of the factory. Then it belongs to the dealer and finally the enduser. The latter two groups get to do the testing and, if the tire fails, they get to pay for the repairs. The factory has no skin in the game after the dealership owns the trailer.

Airstream is installing the 16" Michelins on the 2015 and later Classics and sells them at the factory for any 25' or longer unit. Some folks even retrofit them to the single axle 19' models.

[Flht2k]

Just picked up my new 2017 ft 28, has the marathons

[MSiek007]

Goodyear just introduced the new Endurance tire! My choice this time

[2012FB]

There is more than load to consider. The 15" Nokians I am running on my 30' have load to spare and have significantly better traction dry, wet and especially in snow. The is no comparison. As stated repeatedly ST tires are absolutely the cheapest made tire. Period. You get what you pay for. I have immediately taken the STs off the last 4 trailers. Never had a single issue.

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by 2012FB

There is more than load to consider. The 15" Nokians I am running on my 30' have load to spare and have significantly better traction dry, wet and especially in snow. The is no comparison. As stated repeatedly ST tires are absolutely the cheapest made tire. Period. You get what you pay for. I have immediately taken the STs off the last 4 trailers. Never had a single issue.

Thanks 2012FB. Good to hear. I to am leaning for the Nokians. For me it the 2760 & LR E rating is 220 lbs per tire greater than the GYM's...and that what a safe margin is all about.

bob

[larry bowman]

Installed 16 inch sendel rims and LT225/75R16LTX M/S2 Michelins on my 2015 -30 foot flying cloud, spare fitted ok under had to pull bars out a bit. no problems with change over

[Boxite]

ST tires are NOT necessarily the "cheapest tires made". I've witnessed plenty of regular-service tires that sell for much less than the Carlisle Trail HD's on my Airstream, and I would never install them on anything I own that I take on public roads.

Just like any special-purpose item .... cheap goods can be bought and you get what you pay for. Good merchandise sells for higher prices, and ST tires have a wide price range according to quality.

The reason trailer mfr's routinely install ST tires is because ST tires are designed for the special problems faced by towing and P/LT tires are not. Their liability is reduced by using the correctly-designed ST tire...unfortunately their cost-reduction actions lead them to install cheaply made product.

The less-expensive ST tires that trailer mfr's cut production costs with are the reason so many folks have a bad taste in their mouths for ST tires. So they replace them with high-cost non-ST tires and believe they've solved their problems.... but that does not explain the trailer blow-outs seen on highways that were P/LT tires, because those users don't know any better to complain about it, and if they did they'd be educated about using the wrong tires in trailer service so they keep their mouths shut.

[Bob662]

Some assert that the non-ST tires (Michelin, etc.) also have failure rates. While this forum is replete with stories of ST tire failures, particularly GYM's, I don't remember anyone reporting a blow-out or tread separation of their Michelins, Firestones, or other non-ST tires. Michelin users are particularly silent.

Would anyone experiencing a failure of their Michelin tires on a travel trailer please stand up and be counted?

[jcanavera]

In other threads there have been reports of Michelin 16" LT failures, but I believe those reports have been related to punctures. I really don't remember anyone reporting belt or tread separation failures.

Jack

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Bob662

Some assert that the non-ST tires (Michelin, etc.) also have failure rates. While this forum is replete with stories of ST tire failures, particularly GYM's, I don't remember anyone reporting a blow-out or tread separation of their Michelins, Firestones, or other non-ST tires. Michelin users are particularly silent.

Would anyone experiencing a failure of their Michelin tires on a travel trailer please stand up and be counted?

Just one that was busted in a pothole...a BIG pothole. Pinched the sidewall at the shoulder. Didn't blow, but upon arriving a campground, I could see a bulging torn shoulder.

[Ray Eklund]

I have never had a Michelin tire failure.

Why would anyone think that if a Michelin tire user had a failure, it would be kept secret from this Forum?

There is a diverse difference in towing abilities on this Forum. I have watched some individuals who lack any idea of avoiding obstacles and sharp angle turns. Tires do get abused. Some tend to fail due to this abuse. Some brand(s) may fail just due to quality issues and poor towing skills. Better tires can prevent poor drivers from having tire failures.

I have only had tire failures with GYM 14" tires. I had numerous punctures through Goodrich tires that came stock on Toyota Tundras. I will buy neither.

I pay more for Michelins. I have received my money's worth in value and the depth of tread for tens of thousands of miles of use on my Trailer and Vehicles.

As Rich says in #431... pot holes. Some times you cannot avoid defects in the road, due to traffic conditions. Traveling west in Arizona, west of Flagstaff, on I-40 is an accident waiting to happen. The right lane is breaking down due to the heavy truck traffic. Any tire damage in this area cannot be avoided, unless you drive in the passing lane. Even then... my Michelins have suffered no damage... but my teeth may have.

[Bob662]

Thanks Rich and Ray. I'm beginning to see confirmed what I suspected: excluding road hazards, Michelins rarely fail.

But there's still time--any Michelin users who experienced a failed tire in the ordinary course of use (i.e., not a road hazard), please weigh in.

[Boxite]

While I have always enjoyed good service with Michelins on various vehicles, and believe they are as a group, a premium tire.... I cannot imagine how anyone familiar with polls and surveys could possibly believe that this forum is anything other than a sampling of small anecdotes.

Since the question has been posed, I'd check with DOT to see if any data exists on the subject, ...if any such research has been accomplished and posted.

Not the same, of course, but interesting nonetheless, .... When I was working as a simulator instructor at DFW I had the opportunity to train the corporate pilots for Michelin. They were nice and talented guys.
They related a story to me in which a major airframe mfr'r demonstrated a new corporate jet to the Michelin CEO, who told the sales rep that Michelin would buy one of the airplanes but only under the condition that it came equipped with Michelin tires. Six months later as the airplane came out of the completion shop it was delivered with Dunlop tires and the CEO, having spent more than $18M of the stockholder's money, did not want to fall under criticism for parking it and not using it.... So he accepted it and flew around in it for over a year because it turned out that Michelin did not make aircraft tires in the size req'd for that airplane. Of course, he immediately ordered engineering to develop a tire for the airplane, and took another six months before they were produced.
The problem then arose that the tires failed the FAA TSO (Technical Standard Order) for aircraft tires, and the airplane needed new sneakers so Goodyears were installed. After almost a year, Michelin finally managed to get their tire past the FAA-TSO testing, and the Michelin airplane was finally fitted with Michelin tires and the ribbing from his competitor-CEO's came to a stop..... except that the tires would not hold air (nitrogen actually).... their membranes were so permeable that they tires needed daily, if not per-flight/cycle, service, and that was problematic at some of the smaller airports often visited.
After two years the story was passed that unless the problem was solved the airplane was to be sold. That was back in 2008 and I changed aircraft training models (so didn't retrain those guys again after 2011) and retired (2015) before I got to the end of the story, but I understand the company now operates different aircraft.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Boxite

While I have always enjoyed good service with Michelins on various vehicles, and believe they are as a group, a premium tire.... I cannot imagine how anyone familiar with polls and surveys could possibly believe that this forum is anything other than a sampling of small anecdotes.

Since the question has been posed, I'd check with DOT to see if any data exists on the subject, ...if any such research has been accomplished and posted.

Not the same, of course, but interesting nonetheless, .... When I was working as a simulator instructor at DFW I had the opportunity to train the corporate pilots for Michelin. They were nice and talented guys.
They related a story to me in which a major airframe mfr'r demonstrated a new corporate jet to the Michelin CEO, who told the sales rep that Michelin would buy one of the airplanes but only under the condition that it came equipped with Michelin tires. Six months later as the airplane came out of the completion shop it was delivered with Dunlop tires and the CEO, having spent more than $18M of the stockholder's money, did not want to fall under criticism for parking it and not using it.... So he accepted it and flew around in it for over a year because it turned out that Michelin did not make aircraft tires in the size req'd for that airplane. Of course, he immediately ordered engineering to develop a tire for the airplane, and took another six months before they were produced.
The problem then arose that the tires failed the FAA TSO (Technical Standard Order) for aircraft tires, and the airplane needed new sneakers so Goodyears were installed. After almost a year, Michelin finally managed to get their tire past the FAA-TSO testing, and the Michelin airplane was finally fitted with Michelin tires and the ribbing from his competitor-CEO's came to a stop..... except that the tires would not hold air (nitrogen actually).... their membranes were so permeable that they tires needed daily, if not per-flight/cycle, service, and that was problematic at some of the smaller airports often visited.
After two years the story was passed that unless the problem was solved the airplane was to be sold. That was back in 2008 and I changed aircraft training models (so didn't retrain those guys again after 2011) and retired (2015) before I got to the end of the story, but I understand the company now operates different aircraft.

Soooo, are you suggesting we should be looking for Michelin aircraft tires or what??

[Action]

Originally Posted by Bob662

Thanks Rich and Ray. I'm beginning to see confirmed what I suspected: excluding road hazards, Michelins rarely fail.

But there's still time--any Michelin users who experienced a failed tire in the ordinary course of use (i.e., not a road hazard), please weigh in.

If one were to get data that was accurate, one would need to look at the total universe of tires on trailers. Disregarding the fact that Michelin does NOT recommend their tire for use on a trailer. Like the aircraft story above Michelin does not make tires recommended for use on a trailers. Not exactly sure how that plays out if you pull your trailer to a tire shop. (Some people have been refused service on a trailer just because it was a trailer)

The number of Michelins on trailers is likely far less than say Marathons. So the number of failures would be far less as well. And the comparison between those two is likely not very accurate either. In my opinion one is a high end tire and the other is not.

My opinion about high end versus low end is it depends on how they are used and cared for as to the end result. And it is just my opinion.

I think you will come to your own opinion with or without the input from this forum. Good luck with your decision.

>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[Phoenix]

To date, the "Airstream Non-ST Tire Poll" reports a 9% failure rate on P, XL and LT tires, mostly Michelins (82%).

The older "Airstream Tire Failure Poll", which contains data mostly on Goodyear Marathon and other ST tires, reports a 50% failure rate.

See detailed info at links below:

• Airstream Non-ST Tire Poll
  
  
• Airstream Tire Failure Poll

Note: Both of these polls are still active, and those who have not yet participated are encouraged to add their input.

[zapper]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

The process of making the transformation of my 2014 25 foot International with 15" Goodyear Marathons to:

16" Sendel Wheels and Michelin LT225/75R16 LTX M/S2 Load Range E tires. S20-66655T, 16x6 at a cost of $106.40 each.

-16" Sendel Wheels
Five wheels @ $532.00
One set of lug nuts for four wheels @ $29.00
Handling/Boxing charge in three cartons @ $22.95
Delivery via FedEx Ground 3-21 tendering date / delivery date 3-24 from CA
Total Cost: $583.95 Performance Plus

- 16" Michelin Tires LT225/75R16 Load Range E, LTX M/S2 (Costco) PN05681
Once I receive the wheels and verify that they FIT as I expect onto my six lug drums, I will add my experience with these tires as to the fit onto my International Airstream. (There is a $70 discount at Costco upon their "sale" in the future for the purchase of 4 tires. The LT225 width is not a stock item for Costco and they have to order them.)

I do understand that I could have kept my 15" wheels and mounted a passenger Michelin C rating, or other brand of Trailer Tires in the D rating. I respect many of those who made comments and posts on the Airforum making consideration of numerous options and combinations...

This was my "Custer Moment". Do this, or forget it... decision.

I will make my experiences, positive or negative, on this Thread.

-It could be my best option out there for my Boondocking travels.
-It could be my worst option out there for my Airstream rivets.
-It could be the best of both traveling and rivets.
-I did not notice any improvement in towing over the Marathon 15".
-I noticed an improvement in EVERTHING.
-Is there an advantage of LT225 versus LT235 for fit and width from YOUR experience?

This thread is ONLY for those with 15" wheels going to 16" wheels. Mixing the 14" to 15" just confuses old farts, as myself. Too many short posts not detailing if they are starting with 14" or 15" rigs.

Between Hitches and Tires... there are a lot of opinions. At the moment... I have NO opinion, just expectations. I am not politically correct. I am not selling wheels, tires or more accessories to add to your or my Airstream.

If I find these changes wonderful. I will comment.
If I find these changes a waste of hard earned money. I will comment.

At the worst... I will have my set of four aluminum 15" wheels and Marathons and the steel wheel spare to humbly install back onto my International and suck up the loss of finding someone wanting to travel the same path of discovery for themselves.

One way or the other... I will get it. You will get information first hand, my experiences. I am optimistic and have high expectations with this change.

WHAT were your 16" wheel and tire "upgrade" experiences? Details, details and details.

Well after reading all the posts on the horror stories with GYM, then noting my experience with having 3 GYM delaminations (25' 2007 Safari)thinking mine were a fluke, scared the blue fool out of me. So.........logic out the door. Doesn't matter if all the data on GYM isn't in. Biased sample. Only those who had problems with GYM complained. Few who had no problems with GYM reported in on the subject. What percentage of all GYM sold had problems 50%? 20% ,0.01%? Dunno. Probably never know. Doesn't matter. I am simply not willing to assume the risk for my family and others traveling on the same road as I am with GYM on my wheels. Is Ralph Nader in the room?

Just installed 16" Sendel wheels w/ Michelin tires and Centramatic balancers on my 2017 30' FC. Haven't gone anywhere with it yet, but somehow I just feel better about getting out on the road. Updates later.

Question: With the good reputation AS has as a manufacturer, why would they continue to offer as standard equipment GYM if the tire failure rate anywhere close to the percentage rate it has been reported on this forum? Ahh logic again.

[SeaLevel]

Originally Posted by zapper

Question: With the good reputation AS has as a manufacturer, why would they continue to offer as standard equipment GYM if the tire failure rate anywhere close to the percentage rate it has been reported on this forum? Ahh logic again.

They are switching over to the GYE (Endurance) tire, which is a better constructed made in the USA tire. I will be switching out my GYMs at around the 2 year old mark for something else.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by SeaLevel

They are switching over to the GYE (Endurance) tire,

Did Airstream announce that somewhere? Could you share a link to the story please? Thanks.