Upgrading My A/C.....which unit is best.

[longdog]

Yet another super-informative thread. Thanks, everyone. Can I hijack it a bit?

I have a 2007 19 foot Safari SE with a standard AC (honestly not too sure of the BTU). I would LOVE to upgrade to a heat pump model, largely because I am hoping it would tie in to what SilverTwinkie has called a "comfort control center" that would integrate the control of the furnace and the HP. (Right now if I turn on the AC, the fan runs all the time, which is really noisy.... I also won't talk about the night that someone had turned on the furnace switch and I woke up alternating beween frozen and cooking).

Reading this thread, I now know:

Penguin good... not sure I can find it at Camping World as you guys have. All they seem to carry now is Duo-Therm (Penguin not specified).

Camping World will install it, but may rip me off for wiring.

I probably don't need 11,500 BTU because my trailer is smaller than the OP's.

I need a drain pan from Airstream.

What I don't know is:

How do I get the coveted Comfort Control Center? Is that something that comes with the heat pump?

Do you need extra wiring to convert from the mechanical thermostat on the vanity wall to the CCC?

Is this something that MUST be done by Airstream? The nearest dealer is 300 miles from here.

Would anyone be interested in my mostly new / old AC?

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by longdog

Yet another super-informative thread. Thanks, everyone. Can I hijack it a bit?

I have a 2007 19 foot Safari SE with a standard AC (honestly not too sure of the BTU). I would LOVE to upgrade to a heat pump model, largely because I am hoping it would tie in to what SilverTwinkie has called a "comfort control center" that would integrate the control of the furnace and the HP. (Right now if I turn on the AC, the fan runs all the time, which is really noisy.... I also won't talk about the night that someone had turned on the furnace switch and I woke up alternating beween frozen and cooking).

Reading this thread, I now know:

Penguin good... not sure I can find it at Camping World as you guys have. All they seem to carry now is Duo-Therm (Penguin not specified).

Camping World will install it, but may rip me off for wiring.

I probably don't need 11,500 BTU because my trailer is smaller than the OP's.

I need a drain pan from Airstream.

What I don't know is:

How do I get the coveted Comfort Control Center? Is that something that comes with the heat pump?

Do you need extra wiring to convert from the mechanical thermostat on the vanity wall to the CCC?

Is this something that MUST be done by Airstream? The nearest dealer is 300 miles from here.

Would anyone be interested in my mostly new / old AC?

I don’t know about the Comfort Control Center, but I will say that I haven’t heard of an AC smaller than 11,500 BTU. Having said that, I can’t recall seeing anything smaller than 13,500 BTU for sale. I doubt that it would be overkill for your Bambi, and the flip side is the extra capacity in the heat pump.

I’m sure someone would be interested in your new/old unit. It would help if you could ascertain its size.

Let us know what you decide.

[SRW]

I have a 2008, 28' International with a 15,000 BTU Penguin II heat pump by Dometic. In cooling mode the unit does a great job cooling the AS. In heat pump mode it will heat the AS when ambient temp is in the low 40's.

The unit is some what noisy on the living side, but quiet enough in the bedroom so as not to disturb.

SRW

[szimmerer]

FYI

The Dometic plant in Mexico was totally destroyed by fire in early April 2009. I know they made the some Penguin models there. There are shortages of some models until they can initiate production at other facilities. So if you need a particular unit now you may have to wait.

[szimmerer]

I started this thread in February of 09 as I was in search of the best replacement/upgrade for my stock 11K btu A/C for my 25' Safari. I live in Mississippi and camp mostly in the south so the 11K unit was not cutting it. I also had a cracked pan (from the factory) and condensation was dripping into the interior. So rather than just fix the pan and reinstall the 11k unit, I decided to upgrade.

In March of this year I purchased a 13.5K btu Penguin Heat Pump from a local RV dealer and had it installed (closest AS dealer is 5 Hr drive). The unit was installed properly but on our first extended trip we discovered that the heat mode worked well however the A/C mode blew only outside air temps (no cool). Dometic Rep confirmed it to be a defective unit. RV dealer ordered a replacement unit.

Replacement unit (unit # 2) delivery was delayed due to the fire at the Dometic Plant in Mexico in April. Delivery took about a month. Replacement unit was received at the RV dealer "damaged" (big hole in box and large dent on bottom of unit). Probably caused by a fork lift at the Dometic plant or by freight carrier. New unit ordered.

New unit (# 3) arrived about three weeks later. Installed by RV dealer and during checkout the tech noted there was a clicking/rattling sound coming from the compressor. Dometic Rep confirmed the compressor was bad.

Ordered new unit (# 4). The Dometic plant informed the RV dealer that a delivery date could not be provided due to a significant backlog and we would "just have to wait". Waited three weeks, contacted Dometic for a delivery date and they said they could not predict any delivery date and we would "just have to wait".

......now I am at the end of my rope and have missed many weeks of camping, so in frustration I cancelled the Dometic order.

The RV dealer, who has been great during this whole ordeal, has now ordered a 15K Carrier Heat Pump for me and it should be installed this week (hopefully). I realize there will be no drip pan installed with the Carrier unit but I will gladly put up with the condensation drips down the side on the camper as long as the unit heats and cools well and I can start camping again.

Bottom line is my experiences with Dometic product quality and customer support have been "very" negative. IMHO I would not recommend Dometic/Penguin A/C or Heat Pump products to anyone at this time because they obviously have serious quality and logistics issues ongoing since the fire at the Mexico plant.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by szimmerer

I started this thread in February of 09 as I was in search of the best replacement/upgrade for my stock 11K btu A/C for my 25' Safari. I live in Mississippi and camp mostly in the south so the 11K unit was not cutting it. I also had a cracked pan (from the factory) and condensation was dripping into the interior. So rather than just fix the pan and reinstall the 11k unit, I decided to upgrade.

In March of this year I purchased a 13.5K btu Penguin Heat Pump from a local RV dealer and had it installed (closest AS dealer is 5 Hr drive). The unit was installed properly but on our first extended trip we discovered that the heat mode worked well however the A/C mode blew only outside air temps (no cool). Dometic Rep confirmed it to be a defective unit. RV dealer ordered a replacement unit.

Replacement unit (unit # 2) delivery was delayed due to the fire at the Dometic Plant in Mexico in April. Delivery took about a month. Replacement unit was received at the RV dealer "damaged" (big hole in box and large dent on bottom of unit). Probably caused by a fork lift at the Dometic plant or by freight carrier. New unit ordered.

New unit (# 3) arrived about three weeks later. Installed by RV dealer and during checkout the tech noted there was a clicking/rattling sound coming from the compressor. Dometic Rep confirmed the compressor was bad.

Ordered new unit (# 4). The Dometic plant informed the RV dealer that a delivery date could not be provided due to a significant backlog and we would "just have to wait". Waited three weeks, contacted Dometic for a delivery date and they said they could not predict any delivery date and we would "just have to wait".

......now I am at the end of my rope and have missed many weeks of camping, so in frustration I cancelled the Dometic order.

The RV dealer, who has been great during this whole ordeal, has now ordered a 15K Carrier Heat Pump for me and it should be installed this week (hopefully). I realize there will be no drip pan installed with the Carrier unit but I will gladly put up with the condensation drips down the side on the camper as long as the unit heats and cools well and I can start camping again.

Bottom line is my experiences with Dometic product quality and customer support have been "very" negative. IMHO I would not recommend Dometic/Penguin A/C or Heat Pump products to anyone at this time because they obviously have serious quality and logistics issues ongoing since the fire at the Mexico plant.

You will like the Carrier AC.

However, the life of a "heat pump" model is less that the models that have "heat strips".

Heat pump models, run the compressor for heat as well as cooling. Therefore it uses the same amount of electricity regardless of use.

A heat strip type AC, does not use as many watts when in the "heat" mode.

We do not encourage the purchase of a "heat pump" type AC, no matter who the manufacturer may be, for those reasons, as well as the additional cost.

Andy

[szimmerer]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

You will like the Carrier AC.

However, the life of a "heat pump" model is less that the models that have "heat strips".

Heat pump models, run the compressor for heat as well as cooling. Therefore it uses the same amount of electricity regardless of use.

A heat strip type AC, does not use as many watts when in the "heat" mode.

We do not encourage the purchase of a "heat pump" type AC, no matter who the manufacturer may be, for those reasons, as well as the additional cost.

Andy

Thanks Andy,

I have read many of your helpful responses on numerous topics and I genuinely respect your knowledge and insight on this issue. I understand the compressor will work "double duty" so to speak, however I really like the other attributes of the Heat Pump. In cold, damp weather (above 40 degrees) they provide consistent warm dry air exchange inside the cabin and I really like that. They also work great in southern climates. Never did care for the strip heater in my first unit, it was rather anemic.

All things considered, it is worth the shorter compressor life and propane savings to me to have the benefits of the Heat Pump.

[RLS]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

You will like the Carrier AC.

A heat strip type AC, does not use as many watts when in the "heat" mode.

Andy

Is this really true? I thought the reason for a heat pump was to save electricity. If what you say is true, then what purpose does the heat pump serve

I also thought heat strips would give you dryer air compared to a heat pump.

If I am reading this right, it is the general consensus that a 15k unit on a hot day will keep a 25 Classic cool, say a comfortable 76? Reason for asking is that mine does not. When outside temp gets above 94, the unit will run all day and not cool down to 76.

Thanks, Bob

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by RLS

Is this really true? I thought the reason for a heat pump was to save electricity. If what you say is true, then what purpose does the heat pump serve

I also thought heat strips would give you dryer air compared to a heat pump.

If I am reading this right, it is the general consensus that a 15k unit on a hot day will keep a 25 Classic cool, say a comfortable 76? Reason for asking is that mine does not. When outside temp gets above 94, the unit will run all day and not cool down to 76.

Thanks, Bob

Bob.

Put an AC thermometer directly in the exhaust of the cold air.

It should read 15 to 20 degrees cooler then the interior temperature of the trailer. If not, then that suggests the unit is not functioning correctly. It could be a tad low on freon.

If you do measure that difference, then the next things to look for are the shades or drapes closed, windows and doors tightly sealed, lights at a minimum, no oven use, minimal stove top use?

Are the awning(s) out? How is the trailer oriented with the sun movement?

Also, when you know it's going to be a hot day, don't wait to turn on the AC after it gets that way.

Turning the AC on, earlier in the day, gives the interior a chance to cool down, before the heat sets in.

That costs a little more for electricity, but it provides the extra comfort that we all seek.

Keeping a trailer at say a constant AC setting, especially on hot days, is nearly impossible.

Learning the little tricks, pays dividends.

Andy

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by RLS

Is this really true? I thought the reason for a heat pump was to save electricity. If what you say is true, then what purpose does the heat pump serve

I also thought heat strips would give you dryer air compared to a heat pump.

If I am reading this right, it is the general consensus that a 15k unit on a hot day will keep a 25 Classic cool, say a comfortable 76? Reason for asking is that mine does not. When outside temp gets above 94, the unit will run all day and not cool down to 76.

Thanks, Bob

Dimensionally Bob, your 25' Classic is the same as my 25' Safari. I have the 15k unit and I can get it down to well below 76 on a hot day, in full sunlight. I've had it below 70 degrees with the outside temp at about 93, but I was not in direct sunlight. One thing that I did, was seal my crappy HEHR windows. Of course being a Classic, you have far better windows and better window seals. I actually had some windows without ANY window gaskets. I also modified the main entry door seals a bit to help better seal the trailer and keep the outside out. I have two roof vents, but no skylights, no wrap around front windows, and also no street side awning. You can ask anyone that visited my trailer at the midwest rally a few years back when we had a heat wave....folks were coming in for the trailer tour in parkas.

I don't know if the heat pump uses less electricity or not compared to the heat strip, but I will say, I had a Bambi ('03) that had the strip. Unit would run all day and night if I let it in heat strip or A/C mode. Middle of the night I would be sweating bullets with the heat strip. One of the things I like about my 15k unit is that it actually shuts down when the desired temp is reached, the whole unit shuts down, not just the compressor cycling. Very comfy on both modes (heat pump and A/C).

[RLS]

Thanks Andy, Silvertwinkie,
Guess I will go buy an A/C therm. and see what's going on
I have put some insulation up over the skylight and fans. I think it needs some freon or whatever they use now. It just does not seem that cold coming out, but as Andy stated, a therm. is the only way to know for sure.
I do like how it operates. I also found out that it does have heat strips and they automatically come on when it gets cold enough

Bob

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, szimmerer. I also have the 11,000 BTU air conditioner with heat strip and I'm happy with how it works in my 25' trailer. Also because I have a Yamaha 2400 portable generator, I wouldn't want to upgrade to a larger A/C even though they say it will still power it. My question for you is: My 11,000 BTU A/C has it's controls on the roof unit, does your's? And if yours did, how did you set-up the A/C, Furnace, Thermostat system? And at what extra cost?

[klattu]

Dang...y'all make me want a Carrier too (two)

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by RLS

Thanks Andy, Silvertwinkie,
Guess I will go buy an A/C therm. and see what's going on
I have put some insulation up over the skylight and fans. I think it needs some freon or whatever they use now. It just does not seem that cold coming out, but as Andy stated, a therm. is the only way to know for sure.
I do like how it operates. I also found out that it does have heat strips and they automatically come on when it gets cold enough

Bob

I seem to recall newer (within the last 5 years or so) RV AC units use R-134a. I however have found that there is an alternative to 134a and that is R-12a. Now I am not suggesting you run out if you need refrigerant in your rooftop unit and switch immediately to R-12a, but I would in fact do some research on it. Yes it's flammable, but so is 134a. I am leaning toward this as a replacement should I ever have problems with any of my mobile cooling systems.

[szimmerer]

My 11K Penguin was a manual control unit. It was not tied into a central control thermostat to control both furnace and A/C. The 11K unit was OK for cooling in 70 - 85 degree situations but in 90+ degree heat , plus high humidity conditions (which is Mississippi for several months of the year) the 11K unit was not cutting it for us.

[gunner]

I have the same problem that everyone has stated which units to purchase. The factory recommends the Duo-Therm Penguin A/C unit. I currently have the original 1984 year Coleman units and one works perfectly and the other works 50 % of the time (don't know why). I don't want a mismatched set due to appearance but I want the best unit with drainpans that are dependable and will cool. I read another thread where some of the Penguin's did not work well. No one is mentioned the Coleman as as replacement why is that? Based on what everyone is saying I don't believe there isn't a clear front runner that is recommended.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by szimmerer

My 11K Penguin was a manual control unit. It was not tied into a central control thermostat to control both furnace and A/C. The 11K unit was OK for cooling in 70 - 85 degree situations but in 90+ degree heat , plus high humidity conditions (which is Mississippi for several months of the year) the 11K unit was not cutting it for us.

IMHO, Airstream should not even consider offering the 11k unit on anything larger than a 19' Bambi. Any larger trailer should have the 13.5k unit standard. Last I saw the 13.5k was an upgrade avail only when the "LS" package was purchased. I would argue that the 15k should be part of the LS upgrade or the 15k be made standard after 23'.

I had an 11k unit on my 19' Bambi and though it worked well, it did struggle in high temps and direct sunlight combined with high temps and humidity. I am sure that furnaces are different that A/C units, but in my Safari I have a 25k BTU furnace, yet standard, without options, they put an 11k A/C unit in them? Just doesn't make sense to me, but then again, I'm no engineer.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by gunner

I have the same problem that everyone has stated which units to purchase. The factory recommends the Duo-Therm Penguin A/C unit. I currently have the original 1984 year Coleman units and one works perfectly and the other works 50 % of the time (don't know why). I don't want a mismatched set due to appearance but I want the best unit with drainpans that are dependable and will cool. I read another thread where some of the Penguin's did not work well. No one is mentioned the Coleman as as replacement why is that? Based on what everyone is saying I don't believe there isn't a clear front runner that is recommended.

There sure is a front runner.

You want a Coleman? You need a drain pan. But, they are no longer available.

You want Dometic? Read the posted negatives. Plus, you must have a drain pan.

Carrier? Read the posted positives. Plus, "no" drain pan is necessary.

Andy

[Jaxon]

We're fixin' to move our Airstream to an RV park here in Austin (be neighbors with Kevin & Prim ). We are upgrading from the 13.5k Dometic to a 15k Carrier. The 13.5k did well in the mornings and OK late at night during the beginnings of our summer (already 105 and it ain't even July yet!) but during the mid-day, the 13.5 was barely keeping up. Since we will be spending quite a bit of time there, we figured we'd have better luck with the 15k.

If that's not sufficient, I've still got a 13.5k AC to mount over the bedroom!

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by Jaxon

If that's not sufficient, I've still got a 13.5k AC to mount over the bedroom!

If you do actually find you need two A/C units, you will most likely have to upgrade to 50a service.

JCanavera has a 30' slide w/ the 15k. Seems to work fine. I would suggest that your seals are all good and fits are tight so there are no air leaks.