Refrigerator while moving

[Len n Jeanne]

We NEVER drive with the fridge turned on. We also turn it off a lot when we're boondocking to save on the battery (which propels the fan).

We NEVER have had a problem with spoiled food, let alone food poisoning.

I have a Canadian FoodSafe certification, BTW.

First off, a new AS has a really well insulated fridge. Before you start your trip, try to start with your food well-chilled or frozen. That way you're not trying to cool room-temperature food with the fridge before it's had a chance to run for a while. We either pack things in the fridge or in a separate picnic cooler with several of those blue freezer gel pacs.

Then we have a sort of perpetual rotating system with them. At night when the fridge is on, the gel pacs live in the freezer. When we drive or when we turn off the fridge at a multi-day boondocking site, one or more of them goes into the fridge compartment to keep cold food cold-- exactly like a picnic cooler except better insulated. Usually at the end of the day-- even for desert camping-- the cold pacs in the fridge compartment are still mostly frozen. We turn on the fridge. Then back they go into the freezer ready for the next day.

We were in a nasty accident with Bambi the First in 2014. In some ways it was a freak accident, but fundamentally it was not-- a driver ahead of us fell asleep at the wheel. The front right end of the AS was badly smashed. Thankfully the utility pole that she hit and that toppled into us missed the propane tanks, but the sudden impact was severe. I don't know what that kind of impact would do to a turned on propane system; but the point being, turning the propane off isn't for normal driving conditions-- it's in case (Heaven forbid) you get into an accident.

Oh, and did we tell you about the time we nearly hit a moose in Montana? Running into large wildlife is a fairly common type of accident in wooded areas.

To us, it's just not worth the risk.

Nor is the risk worth it to car ferries. Even if you park on the surface deck, you will be asked to shut off your propane. If it's a long journey, you'd want some alternate method of chilling your food, anyhow.

[Len n Jeanne]

So here's the main issue, which is not your beautifully maintained propane system and responsible driving habits, but what can happen when they leak:

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=...e-b039479dfb6f

http://www.ktvz.com/news/bend-man-se...-fire/35220256

http://accesscamping.com/blog/2014/0...e-safety-tips/

[raidergal]

Ditto, who wants to deal with ice and ice chests. I would think that these refrigerators would not like to be switched on and off all the time. Enjoy your travels!!

[tvketchum]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

Assuming that you didn't want to be told "run the fridge on propane," there are a few other ways to deal with the situation.

1 - Don't even carry refrigerated/frozen foods in transit. Buy them at your destination. You can pick up regional specialties this way.

2 - Carry an ice chest and use either bagged ice or Blue Ice packs, or even dry ice for stuff that absolutely must stay frozen.

3 - Use a portable 12v fridge that plugs into a power outlet in the tow vehicle. Dometic makes several in different sizes (I have the smallest, to carry soft drinks within easy reach of the driver) but none as big as your trailer's fridge, of course.

One thing you probably won't be able to do is load up your fridge and then keep food cold in it without running the fridge. It's not insulated well enough for that.

You can use ice, or dry ice, in the fridge to maintain cold. Don't let it touch something directly, or it will freeze.

An alternate to dry ice, is to take a couple of tablespoons of salt, added to a half gallon plastic milk jug, fill with water leaving an inch of space. Cap, and freeze in your home freezer. You will need to shake it once an hour for two or three hours, but when it freezes, it will be colder than ice from fresh water. Salt lowers the freezing point of water, so this block will be colder than regular ice. Put in the fridge, and it should keep things chilled for hours.


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Tom
TVKetchum

[Len n Jeanne]

Originally Posted by raidergal

Ditto, who wants to deal with ice and ice chests. I would think that these refrigerators would not like to be switched on and off all the time. Enjoy your travels!!

One reason to deal with ice or freezer pacs might be how long it takes food placed in a warm fridge to chill to a safe temperature.

Bacteria that happen to be present in food multiply rapidly at temperatures between 140 degrees F (60C) and 40F (4 C). The upper one is a safe "hot holding" temperature, the lower one is like your fridge or freezer.

If your AS has been stored in hot summer weather, it takes your fridge a while to chill to 40F (or 32F, for your freezer.)

Basically the US and Canadian food handling standard is that you have 2 hours to chill food that should be chilled to 40F if its temperature is between 140F & 40F. After that, the FoodSafe standard is that it should be discarded.

So if you keep your fridge on while you drive, just make sure you turn it on well in advance of your departure on the trip, so that you get it to 40F before the food goes in, and then chill foods to 40F before you put them in the fridge. If your fridge will take a while to chill, it's a good idea to add some freezer pacs or ice in a leak-proof container.

Hopefully nobody's fresh food has bacteria in it to start with. But food poisoning is a risk with improperly raised or handled food. Just ask Chipotle.

The picnic cooler with freezer pacs also comes in handy for the extra beer.

Dunno if it bothers a fridge to be turned on and off a bunch. Ours doesn't seem to mind.

[Foiled Again]

Lots of common sense here. I run with mine on and turn it off while refueling... which at a diesel pump IS an abundance of caution.

Either way you go, one thing to consider is how hot your Airstream can get while you are towing. In Eastern Virginia - heat and humidity are a real issue in the summer and a trailer can easily be 20 degrees hotter than the outside temperature. Even if the fridge is running, it will probably struggle when the inside temp is over 100F. Under these conditions it's probably a good idea to to run the fridge AND have some of those blue cold packs or frozen water bottles in the fridge.

Also, you CAN run with your fantastic vents open unless some idiot installed the to open facing forward... duh. When I think about it ahead of time, I'll hand crank one or both up about an inch. It makes a BIG difference inside. Of course it's still great to see how fast you can cool a whole trailer down with the door open and one fan on high speed exhausting air.

[paiceman]

We have traveled in or towed an RV for over 40 years, my parents in a 30" AS for 20 years and 200,000 miles before my wife and I and all have run the refrigerator on Propane and when in campground with electric we let the unit switch over to electric. Every dealer I've dealt with has recommended same.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by tvketchum

Salt lowers the freezing point of water, so this block will be colder than regular ice.

Actually, that's a myth. Salt water DOES have a lower freezing point that fresh water, but everything in your freezer reaches the same temperature, based on the thermostat setting. If your freezer is set to 0°F, then saltwater ice in the freezer reaches 0°F, and freshwater ice in the freezer also reaches 0°F. And so does your vodka, your frozen meats, etc.

The important thing to remember is, keep the freezer as full of something as you can, consistent with allowing air flow around everything. Six pounds of frozen anything takes longer to thaw than one pound of frozen anything. Anyone who has ever tried to thaw a frozen turkey at Thanksgiving knows that. So if you don't have enough frozen food to fill the freezer, then use blue ice packs, ice, saltwater ice, vodka, whatever, to make up the difference.

[Drathaar]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

Actually, that's a myth. Salt water DOES have a lower freezing point that fresh water, but everything in your freezer reaches the same temperature, based on the thermostat setting. If your freezer is set to 0°F, then saltwater ice in the freezer reaches 0°F, and freshwater ice in the freezer also reaches 0°F. And so does your vodka, your frozen meats, etc.

The important thing to remember is, keep the freezer as full of something as you can, consistent with allowing air flow around everything. Six pounds of frozen anything takes longer to thaw than one pound of frozen anything. Anyone who has ever tried to thaw a frozen turkey at Thanksgiving knows that. So if you don't have enough frozen food to fill the freezer, then use blue ice packs, ice, saltwater ice, vodka, whatever, to make up the difference.

The manual that came with my Yeti cooler recommended using crumpled newspaper to reduce the air volume. We loosely packed it in plastic bags. It works in the Yeti, and should in the refer.

In the AS, we use a small battery powered fan to move air around and keep the temp even.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I've tried to find evidence of actual problems and came up empty.

The closest I came was a hydrogen fire from a defective fridge while someone was under way in a motorhome. While turning off the propane would have prevented a fire in that particular place and time, it likely would have just postponed it until parked somewhere -- not any safer. No one was hurt.

Even accidents while refuelling don't seem to occur. The all-causes fires at gasoline pumps are in the single digits to low teens nationwide each year, with static electricity being blamed for most of them and cigarette smoking for most of the rest.

Actually, the 'stories ' of hydrogen fueled fires in an RV are not accurate. I was directly involved in a Norcold fridge fire that totaled the coach it was in. It had their 'recall kit' in it that I installed, along with about 200 others several years ago.

The owners insurance company insisted that I was liable as they insisted that the recall kit, consisting of a heat sensor at the boiler section and a 12 VDC disconnect was not properly installed, as they were designed to mitigate a fire.

Only problem was the recall kit was designed to remove 12 VDC from the control board, thus automatically closing the LP valve at the fridge and removing the heat source.

This is NOT EFFECTIVE when plugged into shore power and the fridge is operating on 120VAC, as the heating elements require quite a bit of time to cool from their operating temperature of approx. 600 degrees F. It does shut down from the recall kit, but try placing your hand on a hot burner from an electric range just after you turn it off.

This fiasco continued to a formal inquiry where I was absolved of any liability. There were 3 paid fire inspectors present at this inquiry, along with my attorney and myself.

I was told by the Norcold rep that in situations like this, a small pinhole leak that generally forms in the ammonia circuit is responsible for spewing very hot, pressurized ammonia into the boiler section of the fridge and it is the ammonia that he described as being in a 'plasma state' was responsible for the fire.

All of the hydrogen (and there is actually very little of it in a gas/absorption fridge) leaves the unit via a low temperature mechanical device called a 'fuse' that is placed higher up in the cooling unit.

In short, it's the super heated ammonia, not the hydrogen that fuels the fridge fires.


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center*AMS Lithium Batteries
Lifeline AGM Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[Siegmann]

You clearly had experts looking at this, but as a one-time chemistry major, I'm still curious about the burning ammonia. A quick google search turned this up:

"Ammonia is a nonflammable gas but will ignite at a temperature of 1204°F within vapor concentration limits between 15% and 28%".

Seems like it would take the propane flame to ignite the ammonia. Could it be that it all happens too fast for their shut off to work? The reason that I ask, is I always thought it would be safer to operate it on electric then gas, in light of these fridge fires. Not trying to argue, just trying to resolve a puzzle.

We always hear how we live in a litigious society. It has got to be tough on a business operator. My sympathies that you had to have this experience.

[lewster]

Thanks Siegmann! That and $8000 to the attorney!!!!! Norcold left me hanging in the breeze on that one. That event is the reason I no longer touch RV refrigeration. In fact, nothing LP related either. Just too much exposure!!

The Norcold guy, who said that they have had 'hundreds' of similar fires, basically agrees with your findings as he stressed 'super heated' ammonia.

Live and learn!!

Be careful out there ............


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center*AMS Lithium Batteries
Lifeline AGM Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[rmkrum]

Lew, now I understand your liking Danfoss-style refrigeration systems. Thoughts to ponder.


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[lahrfarm]

If I were concerned about the propane fridge catching on fire, I would be more concerned about running it while sleeping than driving. I say use propane on the road and never when sleeping while boondocking.

[dkottum]

I'm surprised some people don't use it traveling. It's among the basic conveniences of our Airstream and any risk, especially of injury seems extremely small to me. It is after all designed to operate on propane while moving, and does work very well.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Lew, now I understand your liking Danfoss-style refrigeration systems. Thoughts to ponder.


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Actually, my 'fixation' with Marine compressor fridges started long before Norcold decided that their units required a safety recall. After you work on a hundred or so gas/absorption units and start to catalog the operational complaints from the owners, it clearly points the way toward a better product that is not dependent on 120 year old technology.

Like anything else in our 'modern' world, it becomes strictly an issue of money. Despite all of the fires that Norcold is responsible for, especially considering those that still occur with their 'recall kit', one would think that they would re-design the offending area and upgrade it to eliminate the possibility of an ammonia blowout in the tubing.

When I posed that exact question to the fire inspector that was representing Norcold at my inquest, he actually told me (off the record, of course!) that they felt it was more cost effective to simply settle the fires on a case-by case basis rather than putting money onto the design, testing and production of a safer product!

THAT….as the saying goes…….was the icing on the cake for me!!!

[rmkrum]

Yup. That's getting to be the attitude all too often. Safety issues being treated as a business expense item.

My first conversion was a van I did myself. Had a danfoss style fridge in it.


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[Len n Jeanne]

Originally Posted by dkottum

I'm surprised some people don't use it traveling. It's among the basic conveniences of our Airstream and any risk, especially of injury seems extremely small to me. It is after all designed to operate on propane while moving, and does work very well.

We never drive with the propane on-- and I repeat myself only so that newbies don't have to feel it's essential if they're uncomfortable about it. If y'all want to drive with the propane on, hey-- it's your call. Driving with it off is our call.

Re-freezing freezer pacs (or plastic water bottles, as some have suggested,) when you're stationary is a very, very minor routine.

When we bought our first AS in 2007 (from Can-Am in Ontario,) our salesman told us that most people drove with the fridge on, but that it was a good idea to turn it off-- just in case we were in an accident. (Not as an issue during normal travel.)

Nobody expects to get into an accident. But we did in 2014, and our AS was a write-off. Since the propane was shut off, it's hard to say what would have happened with it on, but at least during the instant when we scrambled out of the truck after impact, it wasn't something we had to worry about-- with an elderly driver still in her flipped car, and a swaying snapped-off utility pole with live wires above our heads.

We came very close to another accident a few years before that, when a moose ran right in front of our truck on a narrow 2-lane highway, en route to Glacier NP. Although we were doing about 60 mph, we could brake somewhat and pull into the opposite lane, when the moose suddenly decided to turn straight and then veer off the road. Equally thankfully, there was no oncoming traffic.

For any city folk who haven't encountered a moose in the wild at close quarters, they're the size of a horse. If you hit one at a high speed, they do tend to crash through your windshield. This happened to an acquaintance of ours. At a time like this, you don't want to worry about your propane.

I could imagine other reasons for cutting back on propane use as a conservation measure, but really it has more to do with the rare but possible chance of a traffic accident.

So to each his/her own.