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markdoane · 09-22-2003, 06:50 AM

Steps for floor removal:
1. Use chalk line to mark the crossmembers and the 1 inch angle in the center. Only mark the first two full width sections.
2. Set your circular saw to just less than the plywood thickness. Cut just outside the crossmembers.
3. Finish opening the cuts with a Sawzall.

markdoane · 09-22-2003, 07:01 AM

4. Mark the location of the screws.
5. Chop the plywood off just to the side of the screws. I used a 10 tooth hacksaw blade, works OK for sawing short distances in plywood.
6. Turn the recip. saw sidways and saw through the screw.

Nice thing about this method is you end up with a nice stack of plywood ready to haul to the dump.

OOPS-forgot to mention: before I started, I dimensioned EVERYTHING to the nearest 1/8th inch.

59toaster · 09-22-2003, 07:15 AM

Nice tip. That will make things easier.

I had originaly wanted to get the ply wood off in one peice to use it as a templet. Not enough of it left to bother LOL. Its's all patched in down the center Rotted out on both curside corners. I think I can get the street side corner off at each end in one peice and use it for the radius.

markdoane · 09-22-2003, 07:23 AM

I measured everyting carefully and this is what I found:
The corner radii were all slightly different.
The nearest i could determine, the front corners were 22" radius, and the rear were 22 1/2". Hard to believe they were that similar, but not the same.
I'm thinking about a single sheet of plastic for the floor under the bathroom, the rest edge-epoxied plywood. What do you think?

74Argosy24MH · 09-22-2003, 07:35 AM

A weight calculator to give you a rough estimate of what you are dealing with. The motor homes are different than the trailers, but it was probably worse breaking it loose than actually lifting it (but I did use a backhoe so that might have helped).

John

59toaster · 09-22-2003, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
I measured everyting carefully and this is what I found:
The corner radii were all slightly different.
The nearest i could determine, the front corners were 22" radius, and the rear were 22 1/2". Hard to believe they were that similar, but not the same.
I'm thinking about a single sheet of plastic for the floor under the bathroom, the rest edge-epoxied plywood. What do you think?

I'm thinking of something simular. Under the bath I was going to use a roofing membrane. It has adheasive on one side. They use it in Valley's and where ice daming is a problem. Nails and screws will seal where they pass through it.

I was going to put down a solid sheet flooring that is a pure vinyl with no backing. Just glue down around the edges. That will let it give when the coach flexes without tearing. Still deciding on that. It should form a gasket of sorts where furnature is screwed down over it. Should cost under $100 to do the whole floor. No seams for water to get into. Iwill still seal the wood.

What product are you going to use to seal the wood?

Somebody had menetioned a epoxy sealer used in boats. It lets the wood breath some, minimal outgasing, water proof. I think the post was lost with the forum crash. I have been looking for it with no luck.

In the living areas we are pretty set on a laminate flooring. That will get installed over the sheet vinyl.

greg176 · 09-22-2003, 10:42 AM

I was going to seal the plywood with West System epoxy.I used it when I replaced the floor and transom of my boat about ten years ago and still like new.I was also going to try to insulate floor with styrofoam glued/screwed to bottom of plywood.

Inland RV Center, In · 09-22-2003, 10:47 AM

Greg.

Because of the twisting and tweaking, styrofoam should not be used.

In time, it will fail.

Also, the bottom of the floor should breathe.

Lots of fiberglass insulation works wonders.

Andy

markdoane · 09-22-2003, 11:39 AM

Andy, thanks for the insight. I can imagine opening the belly pan in 10 years and finding nothing but a pile of styrofoam sawdust.
Greg: Believe it or not, there is a West Marine store closer to me than the Home Depot. I like andy's idea of leaving the bottom open to breathe. I was just going to do the edges, in about 2 inches. More for weight and cost than breathability.
Toaster: You're making great progress. Is this the week you were going to take off? I'll be slowing down now that winter has arrived in Minnesota.
...and waiting for my new axle...
...and greywater tank...
...and POR-15...

59toaster · 09-22-2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
Andy, thanks for the insight. I can imagine opening the belly pan in 10 years and finding nothing but a pile of styrofoam sawdust.
Greg: Believe it or not, there is a West Marine store closer to me than the Home Depot. I like andy's idea of leaving the bottom open to breathe. I was just going to do the edges, in about 2 inches. More for weight and cost than breathability.
Toaster: You're making great progress. Is this the week you were going to take off? I'll be slowing down now that winter has arrived in Minnesota.
...and waiting for my new axle...
...and greywater tank...
...and POR-15...

Next week is when I have off. and I just took friday off of this week for supply chasing. Start drilling rivets tonight. Get that knocked out in the evenings and then saturday I'll start pulling the body loose.

I have Delta's main repair hub here you would think I could find somebody local to me that would stock 2024-t3 that would counter sale.....ARGGGGG.

I'm not sure how much I need. I was hoping not to have to make a 70 mile round trip but it looks like I will have to.

Couple more places to call. I'm pretty sure Tull metals will have it just a long drive.

The real bummer is there is a place 3.5 miles from my house called "Metal Coaters". They apply finishes on the stuff. They have tractor trailers lined up all day with huge rolls but doesn't look like they have counter sales. If they can't sell 1,000lb at a time I'm not worth the trouble.

POR 15....In stock at Year one www.yearone.com Guess I'll swing buy on my way to pick up the aluminum for the belly pan.

Hay let me run this by you. I'm thinking about using some aluminum for the shower walls and cover over the black water tank that the toliet will sit on. There was some serious issues with water getting where it wasn't wanted and I think I can do a better job with the aluminum sheet. Put a lip on it to make sure it all drains into the shower pan.

Would that be to much CCD for a vintage?

greg176 · 09-22-2003, 01:00 PM

That fiberglass insulation worked great. It was soaking wet and all balled up in bottom of floor pan and full of mouse droppings.What was left on top of frame acted as a reservoir to hold water to rot top of frame.
59Toaster - On a positive note I was told that I can get aluminum from the same outfit that supplies us here at AirCanada.Apparently if they have damaged sheets that can not be certified for aircraft (any scratch of dent)they will sell for half price over counter.Keep that in mind when looking for aluminum.

74Argosy24MH · 09-22-2003, 01:17 PM

Dow makes insulation board called Thermax and Tuff R. It doesn't break up like styrofoam and won't hold water like fiberglass, double sided foil faced. Lowes and HD shoud have it in 1/2" and 1" sheets but it comes up to about 2 1/2".

John

markdoane · 09-22-2003, 01:36 PM

Greg, your point is well made.
My wife always loved the smell of the airstream because it took her back to her childhold (40 years ago) When I told her I had located the source of that unique "smell" in the bellypan, she asked if I could put it the smell back in when I'm finished.

markdoane · 09-22-2003, 01:41 PM

Toaster, I'm thinking the same thing. The one area in my shower that was pristine was where they built the side lip out of plywood covered with aluminum.

59toaster · 09-23-2003, 02:36 PM

Priced 2024-t3 for the belly pan yet?

For four 4ftx12ft sheets I just got quoted $1000

Yep I called around and most places would not even see if they could get that.

Looks like I will bee patching in the visiable edge and saving as much as I can. Middle is fair in mine. so If I replace about 10 inches all the way around and the one corner that is a complete write off.
I have them checking of a different grade to see what it goes for. Might have a little two tone effect going but still have some cash left in my bank.

markdoane · 09-23-2003, 02:55 PM

Don't worry about the grade. From what I read, the original belly pan was 2024 NOT AlClad, whereas the body WAS AlClad. So the bottom would never polish up to a mirror finish anyway. Besides, who would polish a bellypan.

59toaster · 09-24-2003, 10:28 AM

In Keeping with having this post have every step of the process and links to vendors that have material I am Adding this from another thread we had going.

Allright I just spent about $250 with www.airpartsinc.com
Price was INCLUDING shipping.

SUPER NICE and friendly folks. Family run buisness I think (girl on the phone had to ask mom for the formula to figure out the right length rivets She was very knowledgable this was just some formula she didn't know off the top of her head). Very understanding as to my confusion and took the time to give me a little education.

I splurged and went with the 2024 and will peice it in. All normaly visable surfaces will shine up (bottom will look like hell but ohh well). Said they had it all in stock. Should ship tomorrow at the latest and be on my door step Monday or tuesday.

On the 2024 they were $75 cheaper with shipping then I could get it local. Since I bought coil it can go UPS instead of freight for the Sheet.

I Also ordered 2ft of (4ft wide) .032 2024 for any repairs I might need to do to the main body.

I ordered 30 temporary fasteners and the tool for them,
A tool designed to cut the head off rivites without messing up the sheet. $10 for the tool and $3.25 for the blades. I ordered 3 blades.
300 1/8 inch buck rivets.

Thats all for the $250-260, she still had to add in the rivets but wanted to make sure she was sending me the correct length.

I think the prices were reasonable and I recomend them for the materials on their customer service and knowledge alone not to mention they have a great price.

Mark I told them you would be calling!

74Argosy24MH · 09-24-2003, 10:59 AM

Quote:

A tool designed to cut the head off rivites without messing up the sheet

When you get that post a picture of it. I never heard of anything like that, just a good old drill bit.

John

markdoane · 09-24-2003, 11:21 AM

Be sure you get the hardened 2117-T4 Brazier head rivets, 5/32. Check this web site: http://www.aspenrivet.com/items.asp?cat=260&subid=41

59toaster · 09-24-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 74Argosy24MH

When you get that post a picture of it. I never heard of anything like that, just a good old drill bit.

John

I'll do that. Here is the page it is on.
http://www.airpartsinc.com/catalog-gif/Page18.htm

It's listed as a Rivet head shaver. It's not the same as the finishing shaver at Airstream Dreams. This is actually the cutting blades that go with the "Micro counterstops.
You have the main body and from what the helpful lady said it will center on the rivet as it cuts to help prevent walking off the rivet when you remove the head.

That page also lists the Temporary sheet fasteners and the tool for them. I think those will be handy when I put this jig saw puzzle back together.

59toaster · 09-24-2003, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
Be sure you get the hardened 2117-T4 Brazier head rivets, 5/32. Check this web site: http://www.aspenrivet.com/items.asp?cat=260&subid=41

5/32? I thought the stock rivets were 1/8th and only need 5/32 if you went with the Olympic that needs a larger hole. I'm bucking the exterior rivets.

markdoane · 09-24-2003, 12:06 PM

Then I'd check very carefully. The body rivet holes I removed would pass a 5/32 drill bit, maybe a little tight which I assumed was work hardening. Very loose with a 1/8"
Also, I think "Modified" Brazier heads are the closest in head size to what I took off.

59toaster · 09-24-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
Then I'd check very carefully. The body rivet holes I removed would pass a 5/32 drill bit, maybe a little tight which I assumed was work hardening. Very loose with a 1/8"
Also, I think "Modified" Brazier heads are the closest in head size to what I took off.

Hmmm Look at this thread. This is where I got the 1/8 from.
http://www.airforums.com/forum...ght=drill+bits
Now the weird thing is Andy sells a 5/32 drill bit in this thread.
http://www.airforums.com/forum...ght=drill+bits

markdoane · 09-24-2003, 03:46 PM

Again, I'd wait until you get a lot of them drilled out, then check the hole sizes. I was very careful not to wallow out the holes. Many of them I would pop the head off with a #21, then switch to a #30 to drill out the stem. This left a nice clean hole. When I carefuly removed what was left of the stem, the hole was a lot bigger than 1/8. The ones that were slightly smaller than 5/32" I assume are from "shrinking" the aluminum as the rivet head is worked.
When rivets are installed, we assume that the rivet tail expands to fill the open space between the tail and the hole. That's true, but there is also a slight amount of cold flow of skin aluminum toward the rivet shaft. This is my explanation for why some of the holes were a few thou smaller than 5/32.
Anyway, I planned to ream all the holes out to 5/32, rather than have some loose and some tight.
The Mod. Brazier head rivets have the same head size as the rivets I took out.
Let me know. Maybe they ran out of 1/8" rivets the day they built mine, and had to use the next larger size. I know for a fact that the belly and side skins of my tradewind have never been repaired or modified

greg176 · 09-24-2003, 04:08 PM

If the 1/8 drill is not a tight fit you should ream holes to 5/32.That would be a MS20470-AD5-6 rivet. The formula for rivet lengh is the thickness of the material riveted plus 1 1/2 times the diameter of the rivet used.That works out to about a 5 1/2.The length is in 16ths.
The tool you bought is used to trim the rivets to the correct length.

markdoane · 09-24-2003, 05:06 PM

Greg: Thanks for the part number. Why did you go with Universal head (MS20470) instead of the modified Brazier (MS20456)? I think the mod. Brazier looks more like the original.

greg176 · 09-24-2003, 05:19 PM

The ms20470 rivets are the ones I can get cheap here.

markdoane · 09-24-2003, 05:43 PM

Cheap is good. I like cheap. Keep up the good work. How is your project going, eh?

greg176 · 09-24-2003, 06:07 PM

The frame is a real mess.I will have to wait till I,m on afternoon shift again(two weeks) till I have time to visit local suppliers and figure out what my options are.
The frame main c channel is rotted pretty bad by the front jalousie window (40 years of leaking).I can rebuild it with lots of work for cheap or pay a couple thousand for a new frame.I am keeping trailer on frame right now as I have no place to put it and I will need it for shelter as rain will be starting here soon.It is a bit of a problem as I would like to tow frame around to local trailer repair outfit and maybe to a place where they rent a big sanblaster.

59toaster · 09-24-2003, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by greg176
The frame is a real mess.I will have to wait till I,m on afternoon shift again(two weeks) till I have time to visit local suppliers and figure out what my options are.
The frame main c channel is rotted pretty bad by the front jalousie window (40 years of leaking).I can rebuild it with lots of work for cheap or pay a couple thousand for a new frame.I am keeping trailer on frame right now as I have no place to put it and I will need it for shelter as rain will be starting here soon.It is a bit of a problem as I would like to tow frame around to local trailer repair outfit and maybe to a place where they rent a big sanblaster.

Greg:
How far are you from Surrey? I have an internet buddy that was working fabricating trailers in that area. He's the guy I pester when I have welding questions. Any way I am going to send him a link to your other post and find out where exactly the place is he works. I'll get you that info.
I'll let you know something soon.

greg176 · 09-25-2003, 06:03 AM

I'm only a few miles from Surrey. Would appreciate any info.

59toaster · 09-25-2003, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by greg176
I'm only a few miles from Surrey. Would appreciate any info.

Just heard from him. He is not longer doing trailer work, he is now doing tooling. Here is where he recomended in the area.

Quote:

I don't work at the trailer place anymore. The place I work at now builds aircraft tooling. Right now we're doing a ton of tooling and support platforms for the new Airbus A-380 in Spain.

If I were him I'd go down to a place called LangFab, it's a little ways outside of Vancouver but they don't mind doing small jobs or dealing with the public. I'd get some new cross members formed at the very least, or even look at towing the old frame down there and having them copy it with all new steel.

The guys to talk to are either Joe or Adrian...it's been quite a while since I worked there but they aren't the type of place to rip a guy off. Their main bread and butter is gravel trucks and stuff, but they also build small flat decks and other custom work too. Hell, if I wasn't so darn busy with work and stuff I'd build him a new frame myself.

LangFab :604-530-7227

www.langfab.com

Rene

greg176 · 09-25-2003, 07:11 AM

Thanks for info. I wil definitely go by there when I get the frame loose.

markdoane · 09-25-2003, 09:28 AM

Toaster:
Got a little help from Ultradog diagnosing my frame. He discovered there is another length of tubing INSIDE the front tongue. We don't know where it starts and ends, but you should know about this for designing your new front assembly.

59toaster · 09-25-2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
Toaster:
Got a little help from Ultradog diagnosing my frame. He discovered there is another length of tubing INSIDE the front tongue. We don't know where it starts and ends, but you should know about this for designing your new front assembly.

Well isn't that special!

Hmmmmm makes you wonder about a lot of things.

There are no rossette welds anywhere to hold it in place?

Try tapping on the frame with a hammer and see if you can tell where it starts and ends from the sound.

The tube has been hammerd flat on ours up under the hitch. Have to pry it open and see whats in there.

I may have a bent frame behind the axle on ours. Looking at the underside the belly pan seems to be concave in the center. With the mess the floor is inside I can't tell yet. I'm not going to know for sure till I get the floor up and the bell pan off. There is also a hole drilled through the frame for a drain from the vanitly sinke in the same area it appears the worst.

That little trick there may make for a very simple way to take car of the problem if it is indeed bent. I can pull it straight and drive a peice in up to the bend and double the strenght of the frame in the process.

Thanks for the heads up.

markdoane · 09-25-2003, 10:44 AM

We looked but didn't see any rosettes or evidence of plug welds. Like yours, my outer tube is hammered flat at the end under the hitch assbly. I think maybe the inner tube goes back to the bend, may be tied in where the guard plate is on inside of the bends. The forward end may be where the tube is bent in to match the angle of the hitch

59toaster · 09-25-2003, 12:41 PM

Mark:

Was it you that mentions a sealer product that you used on a boat from West marine? WHat was the brand name? Going to pick up some tomorrow.

greg176 · 09-25-2003, 01:51 PM

It was the West System 105 resin and the 206 slow hardener.

59toaster · 09-25-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by greg176
It was the West System 105 resin and the 206 slow hardener.

Thanks!
Any idea on how long it needs to dry befroe you can handle it? I'm going to seal the full sheets then dress the edges after I have the deck on and the holes for plumbing cut.

greg176 · 09-25-2003, 02:28 PM

An hour should do it.Even with slow hardener the stuff sets up pretty quick.Mix it up in small batches about two cups at a time and use it right away it starts to set up in just a few minutes.

markdoane · 09-25-2003, 02:31 PM

Thanks for info on epoxy. Ordered fame pieces and new crossmembers today and started grinding of the excess stuff from the frame. Stuff like anti-sway ballsocket and mounting plates for load springs. Taking of the front crossmember and plate, first two outriggers, rear crossmember, and one in the middle where the new greywater tank is going.
Recieved sample of COMDECO plastic floor today. Comparing the flex modulus, looks like I can make it work with maybe an extra stringer or two. Or not, haven't got prices yet.

CanoeStream · 09-25-2003, 06:34 PM

I have used System Three & West System products in boatbuilding applications. Applications in aviation and other wood systems are also appropriate. Many hardware store epoxies are not necessarily waterproof. Be sure and wear disposable gloves (nitrile fit well and are available at our farm/hardware outlets). Mix it in old yogurt containers or other unwaxed disposables. Cheap foam brushes work well for application.

There are some strong particulars at every stage. Cleanliness is a plus in working with epoxy. It is a potent sensitizer and once an individual reacts they can not work near the stuff again. Mixing large pots produces heat which greatly impacts handling and success. Mechanical finishing of epoxied surfaces produces heat and you should wear a paint spray respirator (not a paper mist/dust mask). Painting epoxied surfaces needs specific products and technique.

My old reliable for good background info is available online at www.systemthree.com . Select 'Literature' and fill out the form to access the downloadable pdf file, "The Epoxy Book." I think you will appreciate this for the clear and broad recommendations provided.

59toaster · 09-25-2003, 07:06 PM

Bob:

Thanks for the heads up. I have not worked with this type of product before. I had a few concerns that you have helped with. I will be working outside in mid 70's temperatures so ventilation should not be an issue. I'll keep the mixed quantities to a minimum.

My main concern is to seal the decking. I wanted to do as much as I can to prevent future rot cause by water leaks that will inevitably happen. Appearence is not of concern. There will be a Vinyl flooring installed over it. Eventually a wood laminate or possibly Cork flooring in the main areas of the coach over that.

markdoane · 09-25-2003, 07:32 PM

Canoe'stream,
Thanks for the info. Read the book-very informative. The ClearCoat sounds like the product to use for coating plywood. If I did one side, cost would be about $150. Weight addition would be about 15 lbs. That sounds very attractive.

greg176 · 09-25-2003, 07:47 PM

The SystemThree book is great -it is the book I used when I rebuilt my boat.

CanoeStream · 09-25-2003, 08:03 PM

You shell-off adventuresome folks are ahead of the game in ability to follow leaks in the long term -- the downfall with any system. You have a plan anyway.

Mixing and applying epoxy isn't really offensive to breathing. Ventilation requirements are modest at this point. Don't panic if you get a little on your skin. Wash the area with soap and water as soon as reasonable. Just don't leave it sit there.

Don't expect epoxy to soak in much more than a sixteenth of an inch in softwoods. End grain and rotary cut plywood veneers absorb a fair amount. Before the material sets re-wet the surface when it looks dry and soaked in. That way you will end up with a solid plastic barrier. I would avoid quick setting formulas. Even slow set can be worked with the next day (though I find medium SystemThree works fine for me). If you mix more than 1/2 cup at a time, do so in a broad flat container so heat is spread out. Look at cheap paint roller frames and thin foam rollers for applying to broad plywood surfaces. You'll figure it out...

Using a floor system with adhesives would probably turn out best if you tried it first on plywood samples you epoxy treated the same way. Be sure you've washed off the amine blush layer (oily surface feel) and probably sanded to give the surface some "tooth."

BTW -- I don't know that the low viscosity Clear Coat is really what you'd want. You'll get a good result with the normal System Three Resin. It is the consistency of warm honey when mixed. You can stop short of the full-build decoupage thicknesses -- which is done by adding another layer or two after the first one sets (follow instructions for recoating).

And 59toaster -- just where do you come by temps in the mid-70's????

59toaster · 09-25-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

And 59toaster -- just where do you come by temps in the mid-70's????

Yeah really got chillie here the last couple weeks. Might even need a light jacket in the mornings next week. Another cold front coming through this weekend Got cold like Summer in Detroit! Probably have to put the hard top on the truck for the season around Holloween this year. Don't think I'll make mid Nov like we did last year. Feels like a cold winter and might get another blizard (6-7 inches) and be out of work for a week like back in 95

SO glad my folks got sick of the snow back in 79 and moved us down here.

59toaster · 09-26-2003, 06:56 PM

Anybody else having problems finding 5/8's ply?

I checked several places and even tried to order it and for what ever reason I can't find it here. Ended up going to 3/4.

I understand the center U-Channel has a lip on it that wraps under the deck. I'll have to take the router and mill it backdown to 5/8's. Not happy about the extra weight but what else can I do?

markdoane · 09-26-2003, 08:03 PM

I don't know that your model has the channel that the plywood fits into. On mine, the channel just sits on top of the floor. You may still need to thin it down if you want the original rivet holes to line up.
But if you're redoing the belly pan that won't be a problem.
Haven't tried to find 5/8 lately, but didn't have any problem when I remodelled my bathroom a few years back. Maybe the problem is Isabel? I know 5/8 is a common thickness, did you ask for 19/32?

59toaster · 09-26-2003, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
I don't know that your model has the channel that the plywood fits into. On mine, the channel just sits on top of the floor. You may still need to thin it down if you want the original rivet holes to line up.
But if you're redoing the belly pan that won't be a problem.
Haven't tried to find 5/8 lately, but didn't have any problem when I remodelled my bathroom a few years back. Maybe the problem is Isabel? I know 5/8 is a common thickness, did you ask for 19/32?

Only Thing I could come up with in 5/8's that was void free was OSB. I asked what was the next size up and all they had that wasn't a finish grade like a maple veneer was the 3/4. Nice and clean on one side, reasonable on the other.

Have you priced it yet? Guy was telling me the price has gone up 50% in the last 3 months due to the demand the military has and it's going to Iraq.

markdoane · 09-26-2003, 10:33 PM

I guess I'll be happy to use 19/32" C-C plugged, group 1, Exterior grade. It may not be pretty. Make sure you get APA quality standard. I don't want to go to all this work and use a material I would have doubts about.

59toaster · 09-29-2003, 07:05 PM

I'm to that "what the hell am I doing" point. Now 1.5 days behind.

Have 12 ft of rivits to drill and the body is free of the floor.

I have some corrosion to the aluminum in a couple of places. one appears to be a reaction to chemicals from the toilet so either the tank is leaking or the seal from the toilet to the tank was bad. I think the later is the case.

Some of the corrosion is from electolisis and a electrical fire....yes a electrical fire. Something shorted out on the main plug for juice to the coach. At that point the PO put a very dangerious set up on that has the potential to leave a hot set of mail plug!

So what is the "Propper" plug I need for the coach?

Do I need to do anything to nutralize this corrosion to prevent future problems?

Left side is chemical reaction right side is electrical.

thenewkid64 · 09-29-2003, 07:49 PM

As you are doing a complete refurb.................

The proper AC power cord would be a 30 AMP one. Get a standard 25 foot extension form CW and lop off the female end. Gives you a molded plug and the proper gauge wires.

OR

You could get a chrome 30 AMP marine shore power coneector and have a marine style power cord. This is how many of the new units are setup. It eliminates the opening up of the electrical system when it is time for a new cord. The plate and connector should cover the hole from the old cable.

Option one is low cost, option two tends to run about double option one.

There was a thread that talked about the corrosion and how to stop it but I cannot remeber where it is.

59toaster · 09-29-2003, 08:18 PM

Found one addressing this same corrosion from William Henshall for over a year ago.

http://www.airforums.com/forum...ight=corrosion

It has a few good tips.

59toaster · 09-30-2003, 07:12 PM

Update 9/30/03

Body is off.

They did some weird stuff on our unit I think. Several of the ribs were riveted to the belly pan before the skin was put on. started lifting it and found theat. Real fun drinning out a rivet from the back side!

Finnaly got that done and at 6:30 the frame was out from under the body. Now I have a nice shinny Gazebo on our front lawn.

Tomorrow the floor get ripped up. Taking the baby over to Grandmas at 9:30 am for the day. Chili Pepper is going to start sealing the ply wood while I get the deck off. HAVE TO HAVE THE BODY BACK ON BY SUNDAY! looks like a few long days of work ahead!

markdoane · 09-30-2003, 08:45 PM

WOW! looks great. I spent the last few days (when it was warm enough) stripping the frame. Going to put "slippers" over the front frame where it's rusted. Got some 12 ga. U channels made which fit over the frame. Planning to weld them up in a couple of weeks. Meanwhile, waiting for new axle (5200#) and greywater tank.
Picture of frame repair channels:

markdoane · 10-01-2003, 07:11 AM

Hey 59Toaster,
When you get a moment, give us a daily update. Following your progress with great interest.
Had an idea for the floor: Once you get the body back on and screwed down, run a fillet of epoxy up against the floor channel to seal it against water getting under the channel. Kind of like a cove base. I guess you could use Vulkem, but why not go first class,
Then I thought, why not just pour the floor channel completely full of epoxy resin. Would cetainly seal it and stabilize everything with a kind of rim loist.
Then I thought-WOW, and I getting out of control with this project or what?
LOL

CanoeStream · 10-01-2003, 06:14 PM

Of course "The Epoxy Book" would tell you how to modify the material for fillets -- using certain fillers to make a thixotropic blend.

With the small movements that will occur between your major subassemblies I wouldn't bank on a rigid material like epoxy to keep a seal. ... yes, I knew you were kidding.

Temps are high enough to use epoxy when the water in the birdbath is "un-thawed." ( a real Minnesota-ism! )

59toaster · 10-01-2003, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
Hey 59Toaster,
When you get a moment, give us a daily update. Following your progress with great interest.
Had an idea for the floor: Once you get the body back on and screwed down, run a fillet of epoxy up against the floor channel to seal it against water getting under the channel. Kind of like a cove base. I guess you could use Vulkem, but why not go first class,
Then I thought, why not just pour the floor channel completely full of epoxy resin. Would cetainly seal it and stabilize everything with a kind of rim loist.
Then I thought-WOW, and I getting out of control with this project or what?
LOL

I had put some thought to ideas like that and came up with a few problems.

Sealing wall: Most leaks from the outer skin work between the wall and then come out from under the wall. Sealing that may cause a leak to go un-noticed for a long time.

Filling the U-channel: Simular problems. The wood is under the track so filling the chanel you still have the potential for water between the channel and the wood.

I want to see leaks. I want it running out from where ever the leak is and my feet wet so I know it's happening as soon as it happens. That way I can fix the minor problem before it becomes a major problem.

I think the best bet is still the epoxy and fully seal the plywood. Then leave the rest as it was designed.

Todays update:

Took the youngest to Grand-ma's for the day so both Chilie (Janice) and I could work on it and try to make up time. We didn't make up time but both of us being able to work on it kept us from getting any more behind.

Belly pan fought us tooth and rivet! It took us 4 hours to get that thing off. All the rivets at the center seam were seel shank so made it a pain to drill them. It now lays becide the frame.

Pulled out a nice size bee hive. All dead. My Fater-in-law killed them but the bodies and hive were still in there. Speaks for keeping holes in the pan repaired and to a minimum!

Looks like my luck is on the upswing. Frame looks in pretty good condition. YEAHHHHHHHH! I have one cross member to replace. The very last one is done. Thats where the worst unchecked leak was. Looks like Gregs. Surpisingly the frame appears ok. About 2 hours to replace it and it will be fine. Rust is minimal everywhere. All surface for the most part and what is pitted is not deep or in critical places so I can sand blast it and paint and be ok.

Our step is not original. My wife says that's the only one she ever remembers. So the PO to my PO did that in. The current set is about 3-4 inches less in width and fits between the brackets from the original. The replacement the step was solely suported by the wood that was rotten. I'll be welding in a suport plate for that or we may try to find a step at the local RV place that is the original width. What we have is not to bad of shape but new would save me some sand blasting and painting. Couple extra inches would also be nice fore entry. See what they have in stock in the morning when I go get the steel.

Started documenting where stuff goes like U-Channel and what peice goes where. Just need to get the placement of the holes we need for stuff like black water outlet, drain lines etc measured for placement and size. Make the templets of the corners and the deck can come off. Hope to be painting it tomorrow afternoon.

We also managed to get the epoxy on the bottom facing side of the new wood. So hopefully I can bolt on the new deck Friday morning and throw the top coat on. Then have it cured enough for me to put the vinyl floor down before dark. While it's drying I can fix the problems with the belly pan on the grass and get it ready to go.

Saturday I'm going to see if Grandma can watch the youngest again so we can tag team it and make sure Sunday we can drop the body back on. Supose to have some rain on Monday. Needs to be buttoned up by then.

Here is a shot of Chili Pepper drill rivets.

59toaster · 10-01-2003, 07:05 PM

Bee Hive when we dropped the pan.

59toaster · 10-01-2003, 07:09 PM

Bee Hive loose. It's about 14x18 inches close to 4 inches thick.

Sending it to the sicence teacher at the oldests school. She didn't like the huge horned beatle we sent last time....she should love this!

markdoane · 10-01-2003, 07:24 PM

You sure are making great progess.
I was kidding about the epoxy. Started out as a "what if" and evolved into something much more dangerous and ludicrous.
I only found a few small mud-dabber nests in my belly pan.
Regarding the step, mine is broken but can be repaired easily with a few stitches. Original design wasn't that great. Broke at the back of the slot. If you decide to make your own it's pretty simple. I can send you a drawing if you want.
I've decided to upgrade my axle to 5200# and add a leaf to the springs. That will let me add some of the improvements I have planned.
Too cold in Minnesota to work outside. Below freezing last night and a hard freeze tonight.
How are you proceeding with the longer hitch?

59toaster · 10-01-2003, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
You sure are making great progess.
I was kidding about the epoxy. Started out as a "what if" and evolved into something much more dangerous and ludicrous.
I only found a few small mud-dabber nests in my belly pan.
Regarding the step, mine is broken but can be repaired easily with a few stitches. Original design wasn't that great. Broke at the back of the slot. If you decide to make your own it's pretty simple. I can send you a drawing if you want.
I've decided to upgrade my axle to 5200# and add a leaf to the springs. That will let me add some of the improvements I have planned.
Too cold in Minnesota to work outside. Below freezing last night and a hard freeze tonight.
How are you proceeding with the longer hitch?

Down right nice here. Low 70's in the afternoon. Crisp in the mornings around 50f. I wasn't happy leaving all my friends in 79 when my folks decided to move here from Detroit. Sure am glad I'm here now. Before the Honda and the Burb all four of our Vehicles had removable tops.

1970 Pontiac LeMans Sport Convertable, 1975 GMC Jimmy (last year for full convertable), Has a 79 Blazer (most of the top came off) 89 Supra Targa. With kiddo #2 it was time for some four doors, So in came the honda to replace the 79 and the Burb replaced the Supra to get us a tow rig.

I am on a time constraint now. I think I'm going to skip the hitch lengthing. If I cant fit the battery on the A frame then I may move them inside. Not real happy about having them in the camper but I'm against the clock now.

I hate to loose storage space since there will be four of us but the logical place would be to loose the center drawer on the goucho and locate the battery there. Put it in a sealed box and vent it through the bottom. I could fit two batteries there without much problems and I could also get the charger in there as well. Take the drawer front and put some clips on it so I could access the charger if need be without pulling up the Goucho.

Our unit had the spare hangin on the back bumper. Chili want to get a tire cover done up for it but the mount is pretty cheesy. Seperation concerns also. I'm thinking of hanging it between the frame rails like newer units. That would offsett the weight of a grey water tank I plan to fabricate in the future.

I have some ideas on the removable belly pans. Still working it out. I think you will like what I have in mind. Should have it worked out by tomorrow and installed by Saturday. Solves a lot of issues and concers and should only add about 5lb. Will allow full access to the whole bottom without having to worry about the belly pan being over lapped by the outer skin. Last 12 inches where it wraps under the skin will be fixed and the rest removable. Will be a total of 4 removable pannels for the underside. Will let me get the body back on faster as well. Mess with the pan latter if I run into any more time crunches.

flyfshr · 10-01-2003, 10:03 PM

What a project! I find it hard to believe that you're getting hard freezes at night. Its still too hot to work outside during the day here at 105 degrees. Nights are starting to cool down some though.

greg176 - please tell me you didn't toss out the water purifier from your '61 cabinets. I've been looking for 2 years for one. PM me if you need to part with it.

FF

markdoane · 10-01-2003, 10:13 PM

If you make the perimeter belly skin sections 24" wide (half a 48" sheet/coil), they will reach from the body joint all the way to the frame, where you can put a nice lap joint to the center removable sections.
At least that's the way I was planning to do it.

59toaster · 10-02-2003, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by markdoane
If you make the perimeter belly skin sections 24" wide (half a 48" sheet/coil), they will reach from the body joint all the way to the frame, where you can put a nice lap joint to the center removable sections.
At least that's the way I was planning to do it.

This is where my cheapness has screwed me.

The outer edge of my pan is damaged all the way around the coach. Because of the price of the 2024 I'm only replacing the outer 12 inches This will replace all the visiable portion of the pan. My removable pannels will be 36 inches wide as a result. What I am going to do is run a 1/8 inch thich 1 inch wide aluminum strip at the 12 inch mark parrallel to the edge of the coach. That will put it outside the frame rail.

I may also weld a 1 inch strip on the radius of the outrigger ends to put more surface area where the pan wraps the rockers to hopefully prevent wear though issues. about 50% of ours have poked through.

74Argosy24MH · 10-02-2003, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Down right nice here. Low 70's in the afternoon. Crisp in the mornings around 50f. I wasn't happy leaving all my friends in 79 when my folks decided to move here from Detroit. Sure am glad I'm here now.

Be real glad. I live about 20 miles from where you lived until '79. It has been 20 degrees below normal for the last couple of weeks. I am working inside/outside on wiring for the chassis and it is miserable with some very stiff winds. It is windy enough now that it really would be questionable trying to get the body safely back on.

John

greg176 · 10-02-2003, 06:14 AM

About the water purifier - sorry, threw the baby out with the bath water.It was badly corroded.

59toaster · 10-02-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 74Argosy24MH

Be real glad. I live about 20 miles from where you lived until '79. It has been 20 degrees below normal for the last couple of weeks. I am working inside/outside on wiring for the chassis and it is miserable with some very stiff winds. It is windy enough now that it really would be questionable trying to get the body safely back on.

John

In 79 My Family moved from Detroit (actully Troy) to here. Just missed you.

59toaster · 10-04-2003, 06:36 PM

Update:

Sorry we were husseling today! Didn't think to grab the camera and take pictures.

We made great progrese today but I still not positive the body will be on it tomorrow as planned.

Floor was pealed off yesterday and started sand blasting. 75-85 lb of sand later and the frame was clean. That also included some quality time with a flap wheel. spent extra time on the hitch so we could get a good base coat of paint down. Nice and smooth should look good once it gets sprayed silver. went with rustoloam and rolled it on to get a good thick coat. Ran out of sand on the bumper. Will fish stripping it at a later date with chemical. did get the inside of the bumper sand blasted and painted. Just need to do the outside.

Also welded in the one bad crossmember. I also added a brace for the step.

TWO peices of the new floor are on. Need to cut in the next two for around the wheel wells and we can put the top coat of epoxy on. Plan to start early so I can get that cut in. Hope to have Chilli putting down the epoxy by 11am. Some minor work on the body to be done while we wait for that to dry. 2-3 put down the floor covering and U-Channel. Have Chilli folow around behind me with the epoxy to seal the edge. 5pm hope to be rolling the deck under the body and start the lowering process.

Wish us luck. It's going to be a long day.

markdoane · 10-04-2003, 07:06 PM

Good luck. On Monday you can go back to work and catch up on some sleep.
Finished sandblasting and wirewheeling my frame today and took delivery on new axle and hubs. Plan to weld in new stuff next saturday, weather permitting.
Haven't ordered plywood or epoxy yet.
Of course, I'm not planning to move mine until next spring.

59toaster · 10-05-2003, 07:22 PM

Denied!

Trated at 8am. worked till 830pm and still not back on. Supose to have rain Monday all day. Wrapped it up and have to wait it out.

Got the deck finished including sealed. sheet flooring is down and cut in. Need to mount the U-channel. I have 8ft of new U-track made out of 1/16 that needs to replace 8 feet of good .032 u-track in the striaght places. That 8-feet needs to be notched to form new radius for the rear where it was a total loss. New u-track is to thick to easily cut to for the raduis curves. Couple peaces need to be straightedn out at the front where at some point the tow vehicle bumper got into the front of the coach. Do that tomorrow in the garage while it rains after work.

Couple things I did. I cut the radius of the corners a 1/8 inch short. My thought is I can make up for it with the u-track. Most of the radius was held on with screws and not bolts. SO it can easily be moved if need be from above. My reason was not to end up with the same problem William Henshall ran into with not being able to get the body back on. I double, tripple, quadruple checked that the over all width and over all length to the flats was dead on.

Let you folks that have not made it to this point know how this works out.

A few observations I came up with along the way. The floor and frame are assembled upside down. I thing this is the reason for the angle iron brackets. They are alingment points for assembly. If your think about it it makes perfect sense. It would be much easier to put an upside down frame onto the pre layed out deck. Then once it's bolted up flip it back on it's wheels to receive the shell.

Epoxy is the messiest stuff on the face of the planet! No matter how carefull you are this stuff is going to get everythwere! It on my tools, on my hands and clothes. THe wort part is if it hasent had the harner mixied it will be a sticky mess forever.

Vukem is the second measiest stull on the face of the planet! Atleast it can be cleaned up with mineral spirits so it is not number one. There is hope.

Get twice as many cut off wheels as you thing you will need when cutting bolts. Marks trick is great but I had multiple bad repair jobs to contend with and nurmorous other problem. I had bolts, screws, nails, staples in unpredicatable places. Pretty well forced me to do things the hard way becuase of the chance of running int them with the radial saw.

The angle grinder with a cut off wheel and my air powered cut off tools ran all day. One big advantage to cutting off the bolts on at least the first and last peice is you can lay them up on the new deck and double check your fitment.

No matter how well you plan your time stuff will happen to get you behind. I spent a lot of time chasing stuff and it ate up well over a 1.5 day's. If all that stuff had not happen then the body of the coach would be on already.

Elevator bolts that are too long just suck! I used a pretty good quality of ply and we had a heck of a time getting them to sink flush with the surface. 1/4 inch bolts will not take the amount of torque it takes to get them flush on their own. We had to bang them down with a hammer and retorque a few times to get the amount of crush required without overstressing the bolts

It takes one person with help 3-4 days 7-8 long, hard days to to this job.

My wife is awsome lady. We dropped off the baby a few days with Grand-ma so she could lend me a hand. My wife was in the there working just as hard as I was and took on the nastiest of the jobs. She did all the epoxy work. It was a huge amount of mess to deal with. Got down on the ground drilling out rivets under the coach. Ran the sand blaster for several hours as well. Then we both dove into painting the frame with 4 inch roller and a brush. I would be so much farther behind without her help.

markdoane · 10-05-2003, 09:01 PM

Congratulations on a great piece of work. I wish my wife was handy with a wrench.
But she wouldn't be much help anyway-she's laid up with a busted ankle for the last 7 weeks. Maybe it's best she can't see what I'm doing to 'her' airstream. She does keep track of the mounting invoices.

74Argosy24MH · 10-06-2003, 06:16 AM

Quote:

The floor and frame are assembled upside down. I thing this is the reason for the angle iron brackets.

When you get caught up and a little rested I am curious as to why you say this. I don't know what you are talking about with angle iron brackets. But I would think another clue would be are the screws through the wood into metal or through metal into wood. It would be pretty unique if they were flipped, I worked in a trailer factory in the 60's and they were assembled deck to frame right side up.

John

59toaster · 10-06-2003, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 74Argosy24MH

When you get caught up and a little rested I am curious as to why you say this. I don't know what you are talking about with angle iron brackets. But I would think another clue would be are the screws through the wood into metal or through metal into wood. It would be pretty unique if they were flipped, I worked in a trailer factory in the 60's and they were assembled deck to frame right side up.

John

Here is the reason I think they were assembling the floor and frame upside down. They used these waffle peices that were installed into the botom of the deck, not the top. It would be less problem to flip the deck with the frame with the attached deck then just the deck to get it on the frame.

Also is eaiser to attach the insulation, Install some of the plumbing and install the belly pan. That belly pan is an absolute bugger with it right side up and gravity fighting you. With gravity helping it would be easy to deal with.

Now this is only at the stage that the deck is being attached to the frame and pan installed. Once that step is occomplished it goes rightside up. It may have changed from that these days but back in 59 when my coach was built I'm conviced that's how they were doing it. Most of the work would be so much eaiser. One guy under the upside down deck drilling holes and sticking the elevator bolts in and a guy above putting the nut on. Once that part is done all the rest of the work is at the edge for the u-track. Lay the pan on and put the rivets into the frame rails and off it goes.

The angle iron brackets were at the ends of the last full width outrigers. In the case of the rear this is 4ft from end of deck. in the case of the front this is 37.25 inches. My guess is these were used for indexing or pushing it along the assembly line while it was upside down. . They were not attached to the body or the u-track. Infact they were about 1/4 inch off the body. The only angle iron brackets that were doing anything once the coach was together is at the bottom of the door frame. The extruded frame was riveted too an angle iron bracket. I think it's in this post where either Greg or Moark had posted a picture of these brackets.

Now this is on a camper and I'm sure it's totaly different for a MH. The frames for a MH come assembled with engine ready to go. Everything below the U-track is a whole different ball game then a trailer.

greg176 · 10-06-2003, 07:49 AM

A picture is worth a thousand words.

74Argosy24MH · 10-06-2003, 07:52 AM

Interesting and I bet you are right. I guess it really doesn't mattter how you build the frame, top or bottom up, but it would be easier to do a lot of the bottom work from the top. Were the waffle pieces joining the sections of plywood for the deck?

It would also make it easier to set axles upside down. I wonder if the angles were used to flip it when complete. Are they on both sides? Any holes in them?

You're right about the mh, pretty conventional structure. 1x2 and 2x2 tube welded to the chassis and perimiter support except for the curves in the rear. From the way it looks I would say jig built and set in place as an assembly because it has a belly pan that goes above the frame rails.

John

markdoane · 10-06-2003, 11:55 AM

Hey, the picture of the upside down chassis, I think that's my '59 Tradewind. I recognize the tires.
I've got mine "almost" tipped on it's side. Sure will be easier to paint the bottom.
The missing crossmember fwd the axle is where mount for new greywater tank will go.