Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-21-2015, 10:55 AM   #21
Rivet Master
 
batman's Avatar
 
1964 22' Safari
modesto , California
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 770
Copper-vs-PEX

Good question!
Because of the obvious reasons stated above we went with PEX on our rebuild on the 64. However there are serious questions about PEX, like exposure to sun light, chlorine deterioration, leaching chemicals, etc.
Here is an article that may shed some light on the subject.
How Safe is PEX Tubing? | GreenBuildingAdvisor.com
Weighing the pros and cons

"As with most building materials today, it's not easy to determine the relative merits of copper and PEX for domestic water supply," writes Robert Riversong. "There are significant benefits and liabilities, including deleterious health impacts of both."
Here's a paraphrase of Riversong's advice: Copper should be soldered with lead-free solder, but soldering flux is not only toxic but also corrosive to copper. Copper is vulnerable to corrosion and pin hole leaks. Water turbulence in copper lines can increase the amount of dissolved lead and copper in the water, especially when the pH is less than 6.5.
When acidic or soft water sits in the line for more than six hours, the line should be flushed for up to 60 seconds before the water is used for drinking or cooking. And in these conditions, hot water should never be used for cooking or drinking.
PEX, on the other hand, is resistant to acids, better at resisting freezing damage, and doesn't scale or corrode. It's been used in Europe since the 1960s, and even "plastic-phobic" California embraced PEX.
One Achilles' heel with PEX, Riversong reports, it is chlorine resistance. "Even short-term exposure to sunlight can dramatically reduce the resistance of PEX to chlorine and result in premature rupture of the pipe," he writes. "Studies show just a one-week exposure to sunlight may reduce the chlorine resistance lifetime of some PEX pipes by half; with a two week exposure completely depleting PEX of any chlorine resistance.
"California’s January 2009 approval of PEX relies upon the less-protective PEX chlorine resistance standard ASTM F2023, instead of the much superior NSF P171 standard," he says. "ASTM F2023 only assures an adjusted lifetime of 25 years, while the NSF P171 standard assures a 40 year adjusted lifetime."
PEX can't be melted and resued, an environmental drawback, and it produces toxic smoke when it burns. More troubling, the California lawsuit alleged PEX could indeed leach certain chemicals, including methyl tertiary-butyl ether (the MTBE referred to in the original post) along with ETBE, a related chemical, Riversong says.
- See more at: How Safe is PEX Tubing? | GreenBuildingAdvisor.com
__________________

batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2015, 10:58 AM   #22
Site Team
 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,373
Images: 59
I vote with Kevin. If copper were free I would still use Pex.
__________________

markdoane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2015, 05:07 PM   #23
4 Rivet Member
 
mnmhays's Avatar
 
1973 Argosy 26
1966 30' Sovereign
Currently Looking...
Southern , Wisconsin
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 273
Images: 1
I am finally going to start the replumb on my Argosy this week (life happened and she wound up sitting for the past 3 years with no work being done) PEX all the way. I will use 1/2" (original copper was 1/2") and make dedicated runs to each fixture (no splicing of lines) using manifolds for hot and cold supply. I will use crimp rings as well.
__________________
All that is gold does not always glitter...those who wander not always are lost....
mnmhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 08:08 PM   #24
3 Rivet Member
 
garypk's Avatar
 
1998 31' Land Yacht
lafayette , Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 169
IMHO & most in industry pex is superior. It has been extensively tested & used for years. Crimp ftgs are preferred but I have used a lot of sharkbite without problems. It's easy to use, you don't have to hit holes perfectly, resists cold, cost effective (when clamped, Sharkbite gets pricey). I did my whole house & MOHO & use it at work. I clamp & add sharkbite where it will be handy to take apart. ! shortcoming- Don't expose (except shortly) to sunlight. No outside use. UV rays attack PVC& can make it brittle.
garypk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 10:57 PM   #25
2 Rivet Member
 
MtnCamper07's Avatar
 
1993 30' Excella
Salida , Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 90
Mixter,

I am a contractor and have been in the business for more than 20 years. Pex is definitely the way to go. Pex has virtually replaced all other plastic pipe (PVC is now mostly used for drain applications).

I love copper but Pex is what you need for this application. First, Pex is almost freeze proof - copper is not. Second, copper is very expensive; Pex hose is relatively cheap (only the fittings are bit a expensive). Third, Pex is flexible and can be bent and shaped; copper cannot and must be cut to fit or shaped to fit around things or obstacles. Copper will require careful measuring, fitting, cleaning, and soldering... again, not a problem if you are good at it. But this is time consuming and tedious. With Pex, you simply measure, cut, insert the fitting, and crimp closed. And when done properly, the fitting will never come loose. Pex also resists vibration better than copper does. And if your copper line should spring a leak, you will need to use a coupler to solder a splice into your line. Pex is easier and faster and will not require the number of tools you will need to fix your copper. That's why everyone in the industry to changing over to it.

Good luck with your resto...
__________________
NB
MtnCamper07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 07:41 AM   #26
Rivet Master
 
Mixter's Avatar
 
1976 27' Overlander
Tampa , Florida
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 796
Great write up. Thanks for sharing!
Mixter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 08:31 AM   #27
retired USA/USAF

 
2001 30' Excella
Somerset , New Jersey
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,373
PEX for sure. As good as copper is there's not even a race here. GO PEX and never look back.
__________________
Roger in NJ

" Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the rest"
Winston Churchill 1948

TAC - NJ 18

polarlyse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 09:29 AM   #28
Rivet Master
 
BambiTex's Avatar
 
1955 22' Safari
1967 26' Overlander
1955 22' Flying Cloud
Clear Lake Shores , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,320
Another vote for PEX. Have replaced copper with PEX in two vintage trailers. I used Sharkbite for the first one (no leaks but $$ and hard to remove). I used Sea Tech for the second one (no leaks, less $$, removable without tools).
BambiTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 10:12 AM   #29
Rivet Master
 
toastie's Avatar
 
1955 22' Safari
Currently Looking...
Great Lake State , .
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,476
Being a blank sheet of paper design I went with copper, with copper you will have to pre-plan every inch. Here is my thread

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...-38289-59.html

toasted
toastie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 12:51 PM   #30
4 Rivet Member
 
mnmhays's Avatar
 
1973 Argosy 26
1966 30' Sovereign
Currently Looking...
Southern , Wisconsin
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 273
Images: 1
Pex all the way here. I've used it in both residential and travel trailer plumbing. Lightweight, easy to work with and repair. I use the copper crimp rings and brass fittings.
__________________
All that is gold does not always glitter...those who wander not always are lost....
mnmhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2015, 09:33 AM   #31
in the rising sun toaster
 
1956 26' Cruiser/Overlander
Wimberley , Texas
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 52
5 years ago, I went 100% PEX w/ Sharkbite re-usable fittings (Sharkbite is costly but OH SO EASY/FAST!!!) for my TX home and my vintage AS. Also went with PEX for our 8000' NM mtn cabin which has seen as low as minus 30 degrees with NO freeze damage to the PEX, and that's after just the simplest gravity-drain, not any air blow-out. All three previously had copper but I just got tired of the (admittedly only occasional) inconvenience and time and bruised knuckles of replacing freeze-split copper (and I grew concerned that all the ancient solder in the joinery of the copper was leeching its Pb (lead) straight into my drinking water, but then plastics also seem to have a potentially negative "leech factor" of their own, I suppose) and I was especially convinced to go PEX by the "This Old House" projects - what a resource this program has been, especially for all those years before YouTube arrived. Water-Ice filled PEX is supposed to be able to expand 10% without freeze-breaking, then rebound when thawed; that 10% is a critical difference, a tad more than ice expansion itself. I have read that some PEX users have seen the brass fittings themselves freeze-break, but none of mine ever have in the 5 years time since I installed PEX everywhere. So, I HIGHLY recommend PEX. One more convenience to PEX: you can elect to color-code your water lines with red, blue and white PEX.
rsjmcg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2015, 11:53 AM   #32
1 Rivet Member
 
2014 22' FB Sport
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 9
PEX vs Copper

I'd use the PEX pipe and the brass fittings with the crimp rings. I'd avoid the Shark Bite fittings since they have an o-ring in them that will fail at some point. But if you use some Shark Bite fittings, make sure they are accessible so they can be replaced. I would not put them in a concealed wall.

My 2014 Sport 22 has PEX with plastic fittings installed at the factory, but I think the brass fittings are superior. In the past, with plastic water pipe systems, the pipe has been fine. It's the plastic fittings that have been a problem.

As far as copper, one nice feature about soft copper water pipe is that it can freeze three times before the pipe will burst. But it's expensive, heavy and harder to work with.

Good luck!
The Pirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2015, 12:11 PM   #33
1 Rivet Member
 
2014 22' FB Sport
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 9
PEX vs Copper

Also, the reason PEX is not used for propane or natural gas lines is that it's not rated for that use or designed for it and not safe for it.

There are chemicals in propane and natural gas that would damage the PEX pipe over time and cause a leak that could lead to an explosion.
The Pirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2015, 10:47 PM   #34
2 Rivet Member
 
1974 21' Globetrotter
staten island , New York
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 55
Last year I switched out the copper with its many, many patches for pex with shark bite fittings. I didn't like the shark bite fittings, I felt that with all the movement, and vibration with hauling my AS small leaks would appear. i simple jostling of the fitting would usually stop the leak but that is not satisfactory to me. So this year I am going to replace everything with the Uponor expansion fitting system. Once this is done I am done worrying about the H2O system.
dcorona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2015, 11:57 PM   #35
Rivet Master
 
1974 Argosy 20
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Kooskia , Idaho
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pirate View Post
Also, the reason PEX is not used for propane or natural gas lines is that it's not rated for that use or designed for it and not safe for it.

There are chemicals in propane and natural gas that would damage the PEX pipe over time and cause a leak that could lead to an explosion.
Special yellow PEX type pipe is commonly used for propane outside the home, as long as it is buried where the sun cannot get to it. My propane dealer put it between my tank and my home 16 years ago, and it is still working fine. It is also commonly used for natural gas outside, underground.
idroba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2015, 06:26 AM   #36
Rivet Master
 
Skater's Avatar
 
1995 30' Excella
Bowie , Maryland
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcorona View Post
Last year I switched out the copper with its many, many patches for pex with shark bite fittings. I didn't like the shark bite fittings, I felt that with all the movement, and vibration with hauling my AS small leaks would appear. i simple jostling of the fitting would usually stop the leak but that is not satisfactory to me.
Did you actually have this happen, or was it just a concern that it might happen? I ask because a few people on here have reported switching to shark bite fittings, and I don't recall seeing anyone mention a problem before. I also used shark bite fittings to replace a line that leaked in mine, and it's a connection I have to be able to get apart - at the water pump. (The pump threads were damaged by a PO by cross-threading them, so I carefully installed the fitting and used pipe dope to keep it sealed, then I just disconnect the shark bite connection for winterizing.) So, if there is a problem with the shark bite solution, I'd like to know about it.
__________________
1995 Airstream Classic 30' Excella 1000
2014 Ram 2500 Crew Cab with Cummins 6.7L Diesel

Sold but not forgotten: 1991 Airstream B190
Sold: 2006 F-250 6.0L Powerstroke Supercab
Skater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2015, 06:42 AM   #37
Rivet Master
 
rideair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,342
I would think about this stuff

I personally would think about this stuff.

Easy to use, a couple of hose clamps and you're done.

Silicone Braided Hose FDA and NSF 51 Grade On Harrison Hose & Tubing, Inc.

Just me,

Enjoy,
__________________
Paul Waddell
rideair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2015, 08:13 AM   #38
Regular Guy
 
NavyCorpsman's Avatar
 
1978 31' Sovereign
Hot Springs , Arkansas
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 599
I just wonder what the health consequences will be over the years. Polybutalene was a easy install back in the day except for the special crimper it required. It has been directly linked to a host of connective tissue and rheumatological problems.... Is PEX any different? We know the effects of Bisphenol-A in baby bottles and other food contact plastics. Just because the FDA and EPA say its OK ,is it really? Follow the money.
PEX is cheap, easy to work with and doesn't need special tools or skills.
Copper is expensive, requires fitting skills and is less forgiving. In most cases you need flaring tools, a special cutter, and something to solder with.
I have some PEX patches on my rig from the PO. I do believe I will ultimately replace them.
On the other hand, my drinking water from the tank is filtered, so with the comparatively small amount I consume, does it really matter?
Probably.
NavyCorpsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2015, 02:34 PM   #39
Rivet Master
 
1974 31' Sovereign
1979 23' Safari
Wayland , New York
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,632
Images: 3
PEX is the way to go. It's been used extensively in Europe for 4+ decades and can be expected to have a service life of 75 years when installed properly . Don't let it sit in direct sunlight for long while waiting to install, it is weakened by uv light like most plastics.
The old gray PBX lines were susceptible to chlorine embrittlement, not good when cities use chlorine to treat drinking water in municipal supplies. PEX doesn't have this problem.
It provides a buffer to freeze protection with its ability to expand, but not intended for multiple freeze thaw cycles.
It's flexible making it easy to run around curves and absorb some vibration. Still want to use tubing to/from pump and fresh water tank suction. Fittings are easy whether crimp or push on. Less susceptible to sweating, causing water drips onto wood floor in trailer.
As far as the CA lawsuit , everything in CA is know to cause cancer, I think including living in CA. I saw some wood, just wood, not PT or anything, that had a label to use caution when cutting because the dust was known to the state of CA to cause cancer.
HiJoeSilver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2015, 04:18 PM   #40
3 Rivet Member
 
2001 30' Excella
Full-time traveling , Hmmmm. what day of the week is it?
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 134
Blog Entries: 19
Does anyone know if a 2001 Excella 30 footer came from the factory using PEX. What I see is grey tubing
__________________

JBBeaubeaux is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shell on shell off? Newbie Dustycowgirl Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 28 03-12-2015 01:12 PM
Shell on? Shell off? Althea68 Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 55 04-01-2011 10:35 PM
Yet Another Shell-off Resto Star-Man Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 11 11-07-2010 09:02 PM
Copper vs. PEX ckeysor Fresh Water Systems 19 07-11-2007 01:03 PM
Shell Off vs Shell On Summary mbatm01 Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 82 01-09-2006 06:46 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.