Toyota suspends sales...

[BillTex]

So the great myth of “Toyota Quality” has been exposed; lie, cover-up, manipulate data, and you can lead consumers to believe you make the best product of its kind on the planet! It is interesting to note that the NHTSA has stated that they may change laws so that foreign companies that wish to sell automobiles in the US will be subject to the same disclosure laws…are you kidding me? How long have foreign companies been able to skirt the recall regulations? No wonder they have been so successful in marketing their product to some Folks…it’s all smoke and mirrors.

Let’s hope this whole charade convinces more Folks to return to our roots. Buy American products, produced by American owned companies. Some may argue they are no better than foreign products…they are certainly no worse, and they are subject to laws and regulations that protect the consumer! At the very least, the profits stay here, in our own economy.

Bill

[Gene]

Let's be fair, Bill. I'm as angry as anyone about how Toyota has handled this, but the emphasis on quality by auto manufacturers started in Japan, not Detroit. If the Japanese hadn't created cost saving strategies like "just in time" and initiated advanced quality control efforts, who would have? Detroit did it because they had to, not because they wanted to. Toyota lost its way in an effort to become the world's biggest and they are paying a huge price for it. Ironically, GM used to be dominant, far more than Toyota, decades ago and got complacent and arrogant, and paid a huge price. This whole mess is more a comment on how humans (mis)manage companies, no matter where they live, than about foreign manufacturers.

Gene

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

So now it turns out it just might be a 'puter problem after all. No S. S.

I hear the US Chairman said yesterday that we consumers may not be using their vehicles properly...or more accurately, the company did not take into full account how we consumers use their vehicles.

Holly Cr@p it is OUR fault....

There was never any chance that the problem was in the pedal. It has always been a computer problem and that is why they are taking so long. They have not figured out how to fix it.

MY QUESTION Has anyone had their car repaired yet. Toyota Claims 50,000 day, but then again there were 10,000,000 people at "Woodstock" if you ask individuals where they were that weekend.

What I can't figure out is why the company that made the pedals has remained quite so long.

[safari62]

Originally Posted by BillTex

So the great myth of “Toyota Quality” has been exposed; lie, cover-up, manipulate data, and you can lead consumers to believe you make the best product of its kind on the planet! It is interesting to note that the NHTSA has stated that they may change laws so that foreign companies that wish to sell automobiles in the US will be subject to the same disclosure laws…are you kidding me? How long have foreign companies been able to skirt the recall regulations? No wonder they have been so successful in marketing their product to some Folks…it’s all smoke and mirrors.

Let’s hope this whole charade convinces more Folks to return to our roots. Buy American products, produced by American owned companies. Some may argue they are no better than foreign products…they are certainly no worse, and they are subject to laws and regulations that protect the consumer! At the very least, the profits stay here, in our own economy.

Bill

Bill
What have you been smoking?

I just do not get this blind loyalty you have with American vehicles. Have you never been disappointed by ANY American vehicle you have owned or can even admit that there were huge quality issues with many of the big three makers over the past thirty or so years?

I have owned them all. And paid dearly and treated badly by their dealers so long I can never go back. Why reward them for what THEY did there own product line?

And owning a Toyota means that I profit from it. Not really worried about the fatcats profit line.

My made in Indiana Toyota will out last any US of Mexico made truck X2. Or more.

Keep rewarding the fatcats and seedy dealers if you want but don't tell me how to waste more money supporting an inferior product.

Put that in your profit pipe and smoke it!

Gary

[Gene]

Howie, I think CTS has nothing to gain by speaking out. Toyota is taking all the heat and few people pay attention to the parts company.

I lived less than 100 miles from Woodstock, but in the grand scale of things, I was there!

I just talked to someone at the local dealer and they are no longer requiring recall letters because there's such a backlog in sending them out. Even though I think there's a good chance it's in the electronic module(s), it is important to get the fix (they either replace or modify the pedal) because if something happens afterward, Toyota can't claim you didn't get the pedal fix and that's what caused a problem. And if it is the pedal, it's fixed, maybe.

Gene

[firedog]

buy Ford , GMC Dodge more reliable.

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Let's be fair, Bill. I'm as angry as anyone about how Toyota has handled this, but the emphasis on quality by auto manufacturers started in Japan, not Detroit. If the Japanese hadn't created cost saving strategies like "just in time" and initiated advanced quality control efforts, who would have? Detroit did it because they had to, not because they wanted to. Toyota lost its way in an effort to become the world's biggest and they are paying a huge price for it. Ironically, GM used to be dominant, far more than Toyota, decades ago and got complacent and arrogant, and paid a huge price. This whole mess is more a comment on how humans (mis)manage companies, no matter where they live, than about foreign manufacturers.

Gene

The Japanese learned everything they know from an American; Dr. Deming. The Japanese took American ideas and did a great job of implementing them.
They are great imitators. Not innovators.

And yes, Toyota has admitted they have lost their way in pursuit of sales...

The reality is you cannot buy a "bad" automobile today (even a yikes! Korean car!) will last 150k miles.
That is my point; if they are all good, and they are...why not "buy American".

Some of you know I had a bad experience with a yota a few years back...I'm all set with that. Went back to GM and have stayed since,
in my case, there is no foreign truck offered with the capability to carry and/or tow my toys...so I drive American trucks by choice and necessity.

I don't really think Japanese vehicles are any worse (although the current situation is...troubling?) but I do not believe they are any better either.

I'll buy American.

Bill

Maybe we'll see Gene in a nice new truck soon?

[Bluto]

This will be a nice wake up call for the entire industry.
Things need to get shook up every once in a while to keep these companies honest.
The comsumer should come out the winner on this in the long run.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by BillTex

Maybe we'll see Gene in a nice new truck soon?

Bill, are you going to buy me one?

Yes, Toyota learned from Deming, but US companies learned from Toyota. Hyundai learned from Toyota too. Even Kia's are getting better. Almost everyone copies someone else. The Greeks knew the world was round thousands of years ago, Basques visited Newfoundland before Columbus "discovered" America, Vikings were here, Siberians settled the Americas, so it's hard to be first and the credit goes to the people who write the history and capitalizes on the "discovery"—Columbus. Americans invented disk brakes, Europeans adopted them, Americans finally caught on.

Toyota trucks have still rated higher than US ones in reliability before the acceleration thing came up. I think that's unfortunate because things being equal I would certainly look at other brands. We have only 30,000 miles on our Tundra, so it will be some time before we need a new truck. I hope there are choices.

Of course, I want to buy a new truck before the old one wears out. My wife has never said no because she likes them as much as I do. I told her when we bought the Tundra to say "NO!" when I start talking new truck and slow down when I pass Toyota dealers. So far, she'd followed instructions, but after about 4 or 5 years she will weaken. Only one or two years, seven months to go. Whoppee! Do I want a red one, a silver one?—decisions, decisions. I'll bet Tundras are heavily discounted now.

Gene

[BillTex]

CrawfordGene;814319]Bill, are you going to buy me one?

What color Chevy would you like?

We have only 30,000 miles on our Tundra, so it will be some time before we need a new truck.

Let's hope...

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by HowieE

There was never any chance that the problem was in the pedal. It has always been a computer problem and that is why they are taking so long. They have not figured out how to fix it.

Howie,

Kinda thought the same thing.
Back when GM went drive by wire I was still working at a Chevy store. Luckily we never had a random acceleration concern, but I remember we did replace several modules for a no response problem.
It just stands to reason that if you can't get off idle on one hand, that it is not out of the realm of possibility that the opposite condition just might also occur.
I don't have the gray matter of an engineer, just the common sense of an ex-knuckle buster.

Just hope everyone stays safe and the condition gets fixed ASAP.

opps.. gott'a go Mr. Toyoda on the tube right now.

[Denis4x4]

I purchased a Plymouth Arrow pickup (Mitsubishi) in the later '70's. Great mileage and plenty of performance. Carb went south and I went to Pep Boys for a rebuild kit. Not sure if it was Manny, Moe or Jack that laughed at my request. Went to the dealer and was told that it was a sealed carb, no rebuild kits and a new one was $300 exchange. Put an Offenhauser manifold on that puppy with a set of tube headers and a Weber carb. Now I had great performance and even better mileage, but thanks to the tree huggers at the California Air Resources Board, I couldn't get a smog certificate to register the truck. I had a certificate from AAA that the engine met all emissions, but I flunked the "visual" test because of the performance equipment.

This is a round about way of taking a shot at the EPA, CARB and the rest of the alphabet outfits that have made emissions and mileage standards so onerous that manufacturers have to take extraordinary measures to meet these standards. I just sold and '04 Wrangler to a guy in CA. He had to pay an extra $250 to registered it because in came from CO and lacked CA smog equipment. Yet, it passed the smog test to get the certificate to be able to pay the $250!!!

Finally, I bought a new Wrangler and instead of paying cash, I got a zero interest loan from GMAC (right after Obama gave them another 3.2 billion dollars). I called the 800 number to set up a direct deposit payment and talked to "Brad" in Manilla PI who could barely speak English.

At this point in time, I'd rather see Obama's drivers license, not his birth certificate.

Let's get the government out of the car business.

[BillTex]

Wow...that's pretty depressing...

Toyoda faces lawmakers: 'I'm deeply sorry' - Yahoo! News

[Gene]

Bill, I'd have to see the color chips, but silver or red are good choices for my new Chevy at your expense. Want the most expensive model, of course, with leather, but don't need the DVD or navigation systems. Our Tundra doesn't have a compass, so we need one. Will it be delivered here or do I have to come to Rhode Island? I hope a Chevy 1/2 ton can easily tow my trailer, go effortlessly 70 mph up Vail or Monarch Passes, handles very well, has powerful brakes, and gets better gas mileage than our Tundra (latter wouldn't be difficult). Glad you didn't offer a Ford with the flaming cruise control.

Now getting more serious, I don't understand car (or most any other) computers. But I am told that cheaper chips (the not floating point something type) can round off the numbers and build up error to the point it matters. I am also told that it is very difficult to reproduce the possible circumstances when this might happen. I imagine the electronic control module that controls speed, fuel/air mixture, etc., gets inputs of gazillions of numbers and has to make calculations millions or billions of times during the life of a vehicle. Sooner or later, it would seem, it can make a really bad mistake that is almost impossible to replicate in a lab. Maybe the possibility of this happening is reduced with floating point something chips, but it still may be possible with them, just less likely. Perhaps a supercomputer could analyze the system and come up with the answer, but I don't know.

I have been watching the hearing today with Toyota CEO Toyoda, but no one has really gotten to those questions directly.

Another issue that hasn't been asked directly is the question of consequences of installing the system that cancels the fuel when the brake is depressed. Some vehicles already have that and I believe all cruise control system cut off fuel when the brake is used. But when you have to start on a steep grade, sometimes it is safer to give the vehicle some gas before releasing the brake so you don't roll back. This can prevent rolling back into another vehicle or rolling backwards off a cliff. Using the emergency brake instead of the foot brake can achieve the same result, but emergency brakes aren't always adjusted properly. Questions about this were not asked either.

If I recall correctly, Toyoda campaigned for his job last year because of concerns the company was losing its way. He appeared to be concerned the company his grandfather founded was not living up to the family's commitments. He may be one of the good guys although he's taking the heat.

I now have an appointment to have the pedal fixed next week. This pedal gets the metal plate that's supposed to prevent the pedal from getting stuck while depressed. As much as I try to figure out how this will help, I can't. Maybe the dealer will show me and I'll certainly ask.

Gene

[HowieE]

This is a direct quote from Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda in his apology to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

"In addition, Toyoda said the company is making changes so brake pedals can override a sudden acceleration and bring a runaway vehicle to a safe stop."

Guess where this override of sudden acceleration will take place. IN THE COMPUTER that they have always said was not the problem.

It is beginning to look like the problem is in the Cruse Control System. Even when deactivated at the dashboard it look like the system is calling for full acceleration as when RESUME/ACCELERATION is applied at the dash controls. The brake pedal normally sends a signal to the cruse control system to return to idle speed once the brakes are applied while cruse control is activated. Looks like they are going to attempt to use that signal even when the cruse control is not activated.

[RedSHED]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

...But I am told that cheaper chips (the not floating point something type) can round off the numbers and build up error to the point it matters. I am also told that it is very difficult to reproduce the possible circumstances when this might happen. I imagine the electronic control module that controls speed, fuel/air mixture, etc., gets inputs of gazillions of numbers and has to make calculations millions or billions of times during the life of a vehicle. Sooner or later, it would seem, it can make a really bad mistake that is almost impossible to replicate in a lab. Maybe the possibility of this happening is reduced with floating point something chips, but it still may be possible with them, just less likely. Perhaps a supercomputer could analyze the system and come up with the answer, but I don't know.
...
Another issue that hasn't been asked directly is the question of consequences of installing the system that cancels the fuel when the brake is depressed.
...

Very very close. Fixed point math is excellent for embedded controls, but requires adherence to a particular discipline. Failure to be properly indoctrinated into this discipline, failure to follow industry standards, or shortcuts in testing product can produce (particularly in C) Undefined Behavior (decent wiki description behind the link). The exact methods of how usually involve overflow and attempted division by zero. In very simple terms, if you assign the fingers on your right hand to be one variable, and the fingers of your left to be another, what happens when you attempt to count to six on your right hand? Do you anticipate and control it, or do you not expect it and allow it to clobber whatever your left hand was counting? St Matthew in this case had it right: "let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth."

Floating point math has its own strengths and weaknesses, and requires a slightly different discipline. I wouldn't say that it is better or worse than fixed point, but just different and historically more expensive.

There are ways of processing pedal positions and mapping them to throttle positions that are more reliable than cables. Making it happen that way involves considerable work and cubic yards of intellectual property. It's either heavily patented or very much not for public dissemination, as well as being fairly complicated.

Almost nobody in the automotive or related industries is enjoying watching this. That said, I fully expect relevant Federal Aviation Regs or Mil Specs for fly by wire systems get fast tracked into the automotive realm for implementation starting around 2012 or 2014. To be perfectly blunt, given where I think the industry is headed power-train wise, this is probably OK.

The brake/throttle interaction would need some pretty careful thought in order to be "right."

On a final note, it appears today's FBI raid of some of Toyota's suppliers may have been related to an anti-trust price fixing investigation, not the topic of this thread.

[BillTex]

Bill, I'd have to see the color chips, but silver or red are good choices for my new Chevy at your expense. Want the most expensive model, of course, with leather, but don't need the DVD or navigation systems. Our Tundra doesn't have a compass, so we need one. Will it be delivered here or do I have to come to Rhode Island? I hope a Chevy 1/2 ton can easily tow my trailer, go effortlessly 70 mph up Vail or Monarch Passes, handles very well, has powerful brakes,

Gene, I know you are a fan of ½ tons; at 403 hp, 417 lb-ft of torque, and 1900# payload I think even a little ½ ton would have no problem with that if the load was light enough.
I’ll let my Wife pick the color and we’ll have it sent over to you…
(Compass included...)

I now have an appointment to have the pedal fixed next week. This pedal gets the metal plate that's supposed to prevent the pedal from getting stuck while depressed. As much as I try to figure out how this will help, I can't. Maybe the dealer will show me and I'll certainly ask.

Gene

I have to wonder what Toyota's response will be when the NHTSA starts finding "repaired" Toyotas in a ditch with stuck accelerators? The shim is a joke, you may even say an insult to Customers...ask them to show it to you...a slight increase in spring pressure is no cure for the type of failures I have seen reported.
Good luck Gene, check it out thoroughly, and be careful.

I'll even throw in "floor mats" with the new Chevy!

Bill

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

B
I now have an appointment to have the pedal fixed next week. This pedal gets the metal plate that's supposed to prevent the pedal from getting stuck while depressed. As much as I try to figure out how this will help, I can't. Maybe the dealer will show me and I'll certainly ask.
Gene

Gene

Try and watch the recall work. You will note at the end the tech will plug in the OBD2 scanner and re-flashes the Computer. The pedal piece is just for show they need to get access to the Computer.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by BillTex

I have to wonder what Toyota's response will be when the NHTSA starts finding "repaired" Toyotas in a ditch with stuck accelerators? The shim is a joke, you may even say an insult to Customers...ask them to show it to you...a slight increase in spring pressure is no cure for the type of failures I have seen reported.
Good luck Gene, check it out thoroughly, and be careful.


Bill

Bill, I also wonder about whether there will be Toyotas in a ditch after the pedal fix. I'm skeptical about the fix.

Gene

[Gene]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Gene

Try and watch the recall work. You will note at the end the tech will plug in the OBD2 scanner and re-flashes the Computer. The pedal piece is just for show they need to get access to the Computer.

Howie, I will be asking the questions and wanting to know about the computer. Our local dealer is pretty easy to deal with unlike big city dealers, so I'm hoping they will be flexible and not quote insurance regs.

Gene