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Old 08-03-2022, 05:54 PM   #1
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Maintenance Free Batteries vs Maintenance Batteries?

My 2018 Flying Cloud came with old-school batteries that require routine checking and filling with pure water. I bet your AS did, too.
Is there a reason to use these legacy technology batteries when all my cars, truck, boat, and motorcycle come with Maintenance Free batteries?
Just wondering . . .
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Old 08-03-2022, 06:12 PM   #2
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I see no point in buying batteries that need maintenance. That being said, I wouldn't replace the ones you have until they die. For me, the last 7 years. YMMV.
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Old 08-03-2022, 06:25 PM   #3
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The old tech batterries that you have to water every once in a while, will cost about $225.00/$250.00 to replace. If you go to an AGM battery you can easily spend $500.00/$600.00 for a set. I do not mind putting in some water occasionally. Choice is yours.
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Old 08-03-2022, 06:32 PM   #4
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Some of the new maintenance-free batteries are not AGM, they are simply lead acid batteries which are sealed and theoretically don't lose water.
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Old 08-03-2022, 06:40 PM   #5
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go with Lion batteries

the Capex ( initial Price) maybe higher
but the OPEX( operating cost and lifetime) is far superior

also they are 75% lighter and can go down to 5% capacity with no degradation unlike lead acid whos lifetime drops if you go below 50%
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Old 08-04-2022, 09:06 AM   #6
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Great info. I am learning more about batteries-cost, weight, life-span.
I am not replacing these until they die. Just looking ahead.
With the other thread about FB dimple and skin separation it may be that 75% weight reduction is worth the cost (when its time).
THX
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Old 08-04-2022, 09:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PC Conner View Post
My 2018 Flying Cloud came with old-school batteries that require routine checking and filling with pure water. I bet your AS did, too.
Is there a reason to use these legacy technology batteries when all my cars, truck, boat, and motorcycle come with Maintenance Free batteries?
Just wondering . . .
Mine still does!
Two Interstate group 24 deep cycle. They've worked perfectly for 5 years.
I always keep them topped off using only distilled water.

Deep cycle batteries might be different than your car, truck, motorcycle which use high draw for a short burst to start.

Sadly, Interstate batteries sold to a Canadian company, so I'm looking for replacements.
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Old 08-04-2022, 10:50 AM   #8
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The reason, flooded lead acid are most commonly installed by the factory is because they are the least expensive option. AGM and other VRLA batteries can be twice as expensive. Lithium batteries have dropped in price so they are competitive when based on actual usable energy.

Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) / AGM (VRLA) / Sealed Lead Acid (VRLA) / Gel (VRLA) are all types of lead acid batteries. VLRA means valve regulated lead acid. Deep cycle batteries should be used for house batteries.

What they all have in common are:
1. They all have the potential to vent explosive and corrosive hydrogen sulphur gas. Flooded will always, VRLA vent when overcharged.
2. For maximum life, they should be brought to 100% on a very regular basis to prevent lead sulfate crystal formation. (maintenance)
3. For maximum life, they should not be discharged below 50%.
4. They are heavy.
5. They have a cycle life of 250-1000 depending on the battery.
6. If properly maintained, FLA/VRLA can last many years. In most cases, if the battery is regularly discharged only 20-25%, brought to 100% charge on a very regular (preferably daily) basis and kept at float stage when not in use, they can last 5-10 years.
7. A specific multi-step charging profile is required. As the battery is charged, volts and amps are reduced to prevent overcharging which leads to longer charging time. Also, lead acid batteries have a 80% charging efficiency and lose about 20% of incoming energy due to electrolyte conversion and heat produced.

Flooded lead acid need to be maintained. Keeping the battery between 90-100% prevents sulfation. Water levels need to be maintained or the battery will dry out. Periodic equalization should be done to displace crystal build up and eqaulize the cells. Due to gases produced, attention should be given to cables and terminals to remove corrosion build up. Also the gases will corrode nearby metal. These batteries need to be in a well ventilated area. These batteries should not be charged when frozen. Flooded batteries the least expensive option which is why they are commonly factory installed.

Valve regulated lead acid (VRLA) have a different charging profile which is supposed to reduce gassing. Should there be enough of a gas buildup, the valve will release it. This will over time dry out the battery. These batteries also should be in a ventilated area to prevent a build up of explosive gas. These batteries should not be charged when frozen. VRLA batteries will suffer from sulfation and should be charged to 100% to prevent lead sulfate crystal build up. Only Lifeline batteries have an equalization recommendation, however they recommend equalization only after there is a noticeable reduction in battery capacity. I suppose if the battery is dying anyway - why not try.

Lithium batteries have advantages and disadvantages.
Disadvantages are:
1. These batteries should not be charged when frozen.
2. To charge to 100%, a lithium battery charger should be used. A lead acid battery charger will only charge to 80% due to the higher nominal voltage of lithium batteries.
3. To charge to 100%, lithium compatible solar chargers should be used.
4. A shunt based battery monitor is needed. Lead acid batteries have a linear discharge curve. The voltage is directly relative to the state of charge. 12.8v = 100%, 12.1v = 50%, etc. Lithium batteries generally maintain a constant voltage of over 12.8v throughout most of the discharge. So with only 20-30% of capacity left, the higher voltage reading gives a false sense of security.
5. A battery management system (BMS) is required. This is circuitry which protects the battery. It regulated charging and discharging, prevents over charging/discharging, balances the cells and other protections. The BMS quality is as important as cell quality. All 100A BMS are not the same. The lower quality have 100A discharge, less than 100A charge (usually 50A) and no low temperature charge protection.

Advantages:
1. 50-75% lighter than FLA/VRLA batteries. A 100ah is about 30lbs and a 400Ah 8D is about 100lbs.
2. Higher usable capacity. Lithium batteries can be discharged on a regular basis to 20% capacity. They can be discharged 100% but all the lights go out and it will reduce cycle life.
3. Faster charging. Due to a 99% charge efficiency, all watts and amps going in are stored for future use.
4. Longer life. The cycle life is 2000-5000 cycles.
5. Higher constant voltage. The discharge curve is such that over 12.8v is maintained throughout most of the discharge (depending on load)
6. Higher nominal voltage. Lithium batteries maintain 12.8v nominal and lead acid batteries maintain 12v nominal.
7. No gas vented, they do not have to be stored in a vented area.
8. Lithium batteries can be in a partially discharged state indefinitely without damage. The battery can be at 30%, 50%, 60%, etc. capacity and it will not hurt the battery.

In both lead acid and lithium batteries, there are good quality and bad quality.
With lead acid, better quality manufacturers use more lead, better materials and cost more. Their batteries usually weigh more because they use more lead.

With lithium, better manufacturers have BMS which have high charging and discharging amps, low temperature protection and a better warranty. Batteries with LED displays and on-board bluetooth does not mean a better battery. LED displays reduce moisture resistance and the on-board bluetooth is still a developing technology and not as accurate as a shunt based battery monitor.
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Old 08-04-2022, 10:52 AM   #9
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Hi

There are many types of "sealed" batteries. Most are not at all useful in an RV. An AGM battery done with a deep cycle design will work. Flooded lead acid cells (also deep cycle) will work. You can head down to Costco and get a usable flooded cell battery on sale for < $80 most of the time. A *good* AGM could might you > $300.

Both lead acid designs weigh around 60 pounds in the "typical" sizes you see in an AS.

Lithiums can cost anywhere from $500 to $1200 depending on the brand and a few of the details. You get 2X the usable capacity so that compares pretty well with the "dealer price" AGM's.

A typical lithium will weight in around 35 to 40 pounds.

In terms of impact on the trailer, the difference in weight is trivial. Playing with tongue weight to fix this or that is highly likely to get you into problems with sway. Weight distribution to prevent sway is far more complex that just a simple percentage number .....

Bob
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Old 08-04-2022, 11:28 AM   #10
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45 years of trailering, and if you really don't want to constantly monitor your batteries (Add water, desulfinate, trickle charge, have them tested to see why they weren't holding a charge -which always was a single bad cell), go with the AGM type and add some solar. Or go fully fledged into solar and lithium.

We learned long ago that Costco carried the regular Interstate batteries because we always needed to replace them, usually half way through whatever trip we were taking. Or we simply lived in the dark.

When we got the Airstream, we had to store where there was no power for a trickle charge/Battery Minder and decided on minimal solar and AGM. No regrets, and it's been 4 years. Always charged and ready to go, sunshine tops of the batteries when it's available, never living in the dark.

Next step for us is Lithium and some more solar. We just haven't done it yet because what we have is still working perfectly!
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Old 08-04-2022, 11:42 AM   #11
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If you have to replace batteries and plan on keeping your trailer for a while, buy lithium for all the reasons above. We have been happy with the Renogy with Bluetooth and built in shunt.
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Old 08-05-2022, 09:01 AM   #12
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JimDelane,
THX for the brief graduate course in batteries. Great info and presented well.
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Old 08-05-2022, 09:05 AM   #13
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SPORT16STL,
THX! Does the Renogy system include everything (BMS) needed? I already have solar trickle charging. Live in FL, so plenty of sunlight all year.
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Old 08-05-2022, 08:28 PM   #14
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Yes, good bms, can see battery status on phone using Bluetooth. Check their website, frequently has 10-20% off sales.
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Old 08-06-2022, 11:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PC Conner View Post
SPORT16STL,
THX! Does the Renogy system include everything (BMS) needed? I already have solar trickle charging. Live in FL, so plenty of sunlight all year.
Hi

Pretty much every battery that you can buy to put in an RV these days has a built in BMS. The only exception would be a DIY battery built from raw cells. Very few folks do that these days. Just what features this or that BMS has ( an what unusual issues ....) is very much a "that depends" sort of things.

The BMS simply protects the battery. It does not replace a converter / charger, a DC/DC setup, or a disconnect. As far as your usage of the battery it should be pretty much invisible.

Bob
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Old 08-10-2022, 01:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PC Conner View Post
My 2018 Flying Cloud came with old-school batteries that require routine checking and filling with pure water. I bet your AS did, too.
Is there a reason to use these legacy technology batteries when all my cars, truck, boat, and motorcycle come with Maintenance Free batteries?
Just wondering . . .
No. You can get very reasonably priced maintenance-free flooded cell batteries for your AS. I just replaced my maint-req. batteries with the maint-free ones and will never buy the others again. Even the proprietor of the battery shop (car, truck, boat, and RV batteries is ALL they do) said he didn't know why people bought the maint-req versions anymore; other than perhaps not all sizes come in sealed version.
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Old 08-11-2022, 07:47 AM   #17
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Flooded lead acid not as maintenance intensive as all believe

I have two flooded, lead acid Crowne commercial 6V 240AH golf cart batteries. I do not find maintenance to be any chore. At worst, I may need to top them off with distilled water every other month or so during the season. Not a big deal. We added solar in 2018 and since then they are always topped off and ready to go and do a relatively good job when boonedocking, provided we don't have extended cloudy days. After our Parallax single stage converter/charger failed, I replaced it with a true multi stage charger. The batteries are 4 years old now.

I have considered lithium, and perhaps wish I knew more about them when we had JC add the solar panels in 2018. The biggest advantage for me would be they are substantially lighter as I do not leave batteries in the trailer over harsh winter months and there are more useable amp hours for their size. However, a retrofit now is quite costly. New solar charger, relocate the batteries because they won't fit in the outside compartment, high gauge wiring, more solar panels to fully charge two 100AH lithiums, new lithium converter charger, several misc devices such as shunts and TV add ons and re-wiring so they don't overload the alternator.

If you are up to all that, then I would go with lithium. I don't believe the "maintenance free" are worth the added price. If not, high quality deep cycle flooded lead acid can do nicely and are much less expensive overall. They key to any battery is the quality.
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Old 08-11-2022, 10:37 AM   #18
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Hi

There are indeed flooded cell batteries made for auto use that they call "maintenance free". They are a bit odd. They become "maintenance free" by adding a bit more room at the top. They fill that space with "extra" water. The theory is that you will never need to refill them. In typical automotive use, that apparently is a good bet. Ask most drivers when was the last time they put water in the battery in their car / truck ... Typically they are tough to find in hot / dry climates where water evaporates faster ... hmmm ....

RV's are a very different beast. The charging process and depth of discharge are very different than a car or truck. This blows off water from a flooded cell *much* faster than in a car or truck. They are not at all the same as the AGM's that are "maintenance free" in an RV.

Yet another very good reason we don't tend to use the term "maintenance free" when describing RV batteries.

Bob
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