What about towing with more truck than you need?

[mefly2]

Originally Posted by LNBright

That's a needle in a haystack. You don't find those on the lot every day, or even every month, you'd have to hunt for a long time to find. You did well.

Yes, trying to find your choice of TVs is nearly impossible at this time ... and likely to get worse. Make a good choice because you may have it for some time unless thing change for the better.

[jondrew55]

Originally Posted by mefly2

Yes, trying to find your choice of TVs is nearly impossible at this time ... and likely to get worse. Make a good choice because you may have it for some time unless thing change for the better.

I was so lucky to find my truck on the lot in July. Had 90% of the things I wanted and it was in my preferred color.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

Your response is so rediculous, to be generous I'm assuming you didn't read my entire statement as I'm sure you missed the part of my statement that said "I'm under the trucks limits at each axle" .
Feel free to retract your comment from this thread.

I retract nothing. Your statement "I'm under the trucks limits at each axle" implies that you are not under some of the other limits of the truck. When you have to stipulate exactly WHICH limits you are observing, it concerns me. Actually, that is what caught my attention and made me respond, your stipulation of exactly which limits you are under.

If you state that you are under ALL of the trucks limits, we can talk.

I, myself, am under every limit on my truck when towing.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If we are talking about "at the limit" on this or that number, are you really?

If you dig into it, this or that number likely is for a vehicle at sea level and going 45 MPH. There are also restrictions on the grade. As you go up from sea level, the various numbers drop by some percentage per thousand feet. As you go over the Rockies you may well have "lost" 20% of this or that number.

Are the manufacturers ever very clear about this stuff? Nope, not any of them that I have run into. There are folks out there who have done the digging. If you look at what they had to go through to get the information .... yikes .....

Bob

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

I retract nothing. Your statement "I'm under the trucks limits at each axle" implies that you are not under some of the other limits of the truck. When you have to stipulate exactly WHICH limits you are observing, it concerns me. Actually, that is what caught my attention and made me respond, your stipulation of exactly which limits you are under.

If you state that you are under ALL of the trucks limits, we can talk.

I, myself, am under every limit on my truck when towing.

My set up is under the gross weights on both the truck and trailer, and at each axle and the combined gross weight for truck and trailer. I'm sure you realize "payload" is a formula, not a limit. if you are under the gross vehicle weight and at each axle, payload is a given. AND when you are under the gross truck/trailer weight, then you are well within design/engineering intent. At this point it is all about your feeling of safety, your personal safety threshold. Who knows your context, your personal threshold may be way different than an others. But your threshold doesn't define actual safe use of a given rig setup.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

My set up is under the gross weights on both the truck and trailer, and at each axle and the combined gross weight for truck and trailer. I'm sure you realize "payload" is a formula, not a limit. if you are under the gross vehicle weight and at each axle, payload is a given. AND when you are under the gross truck/trailer weight, then you are well within design/engineering intent. At this point it is all about your feeling of safety, your personal safety threshold. Who knows your context, your personal threshold may be way different than an others. But your threshold doesn't define actual safe use of a given rig setup.

And now we know which ratings you are choosing to ignore. Thank you. I am quite sure that manufacturers put the payload rating on the door pillar just for giggles.

[RedSHED]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

And now we know which ratings you are choosing to ignore. Thank you. I am quite sure that manufacturers put the payload rating on the door pillar just for giggles.

I read it as payload = gross vehicle weight - empty weight. If he's under gvwr, by definition, he's under payload weight, which is what he meant by formula. However, he's also choosing to respect axle limits, as payload isn't the only limit involved, and the sticker is there so we don't have to do arithmetic. Mebbe I misread ?

[Mattedfred]

Originally Posted by RedSHED

I read it as payload = gross vehicle weight - empty weight. If he's under gvwr, by definition, he's under payload weight, which is what he meant by formula. However, he's also choosing to respect axle limits, as payload isn't the only limit involved, and the sticker is there so we don't have to do arithmetic. Mebbe I misread ?

So did I. Not sure how anyone could be under GVWR but over payload. Perhaps someone else misread his post.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by RedSHED

I read it as payload = gross vehicle weight - empty weight.

I read it as payload = number posted as payload rating on door pillar.

Originally Posted by RedSHED

If he's under gvwr, by definition, he's under payload weight, which is what he meant by formula.

I am not sure that your "definition" is accepted by the rating agencies or manufacturers, otherwise, why post the rating on the door pillar?

Originally Posted by RedSHED

However, he's also choosing to respect axle limits, as payload isn't the only limit involved,

Well, at least he isn't ignoring ALL the limits. I have never said payload is the only limit to respect. I even stipulated that my F-150 towing my 23' Airstream meets ALL limits. Including axle limits AND payload limits.

Originally Posted by RedSHED

and the sticker is there so we don't have to do arithmetic. Mebbe I misread ?

Ummm, yeah, OK.

[RedSHED]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

I read it as payload = number posted as payload rating on door pillar.





I am not sure that your "definition" is accepted by the rating agencies or manufacturers, otherwise, why post the rating on the door pillar?





Well, at least he isn't ignoring ALL the limits. I have never said payload is the only limit to respect. I even stipulated that my F-150 towing my 23' Airstream meets ALL limits. Including axle limits AND payload limits.





Ummm, yeah, OK.

If the formula for payload is defined to be gross - empty, then the definition is the formula. The door sticker starts there and sometimes includes an extended definition of "empty" such as full coolant & lubricant plus around 12 pounds of fuel and one human occupant. That variation sometimes varies by mfg. 12 pounds, 14 pounds, 21 pounds... none of which budges gvwr in the slightest. (By using the standard fuel load in payload calculations, if they weigh it they know how much to subtract.)
At the assembly line they generally put in 2 gallons of fuel more or less. This is enough to do a couple of checks and get it to the dealer. At 6 lb per gallon, there's 12 pounds. 14 for diesel.
Can it happen that a payload sticker shows a number that would exceed gross? Sure, but it should be rare, and technically an error. When doing a weight and balance on a 172 or whatever, the "useful load" is a good place to start, but the gross weight is the hard stop.

[DewTheDew]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

I read it as payload = number posted as payload rating on door pillar.


I am not sure that your "definition" is accepted by the rating agencies or manufacturers, otherwise, why post the rating on the door pillar?


Well, at least he isn't ignoring ALL the limits. I have never said payload is the only limit to respect. I even stipulated that my F-150 towing my 23' Airstream meets ALL limits. Including axle limits AND payload limits.


Ummm, yeah, OK.

I have never thought to weigh everything I put in my truck including that extra jacket I tossed in back yesterday. Do you weigh everything?

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by RedSHED

I read it as payload = gross vehicle weight - empty weight. If he's under gvwr, by definition, he's under payload weight, which is what he meant by formula. However, he's also choosing to respect axle limits, as payload isn't the only limit involved, and the sticker is there so we don't have to do arithmetic. Mebbe I misread ?

Yep, you got it, simple isnt it.
Some guys here are funny. This so simple.
Gross vehicle weight is the limit. Axle weight tells you how it is distributed. "payload" is merely the difference between gross vehicle weight and dry weight. The STICKER is merely a tool for comparison, it isnt always accurate. Weigh your truck yourself.
The man with a theory is always at the mercy of the man with experience. I've weighed my rig, i know what it weighs dry and loaded, i know where the weight sits on each axle. I know what a WD hitch properly installed does with the weight. I know my setup is under all the limits and i know payload is merely a comparison tool.
What i dont know is the limit of some people's arrogance, assuming they know more about mine or anyone else's rig, which they have never seen nor weighed, but are willing to make bold and unsubstantiated statements.
Just funny

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

I am quite sure that manufacturers put the payload rating on the door pillar just for giggles.

No not giggled, comparison. I dont trust anyone, i want to know for myself, so i weighed it myself. And i can actually do the math myself, payload is the difference between the gross vehicle weight limit and its actual dry weight, regardless of what the "sticker" says.
Here is how simple this is - if you are over the gross vehicle weight, you are over its payload, if you are under the gross vehicle weight, you are under its payload. If you are more inquesitive like i am, you will weigh each axle, it may be possible to be under your gross weight and over your axle limit, that would be unsafe.

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by RedSHED

I read it as payload = gross vehicle weight - empty weight. If he's under gvwr, by definition, he's under payload weight, which is what he meant by formula. However, he's also choosing to respect axle limits, as payload isn't the only limit involved, and the sticker is there so we don't have to do arithmetic. Mebbe I misread ?

Absolutely!!!!!!! Nailed it, simple isn't it
Know your setup

[1StreamDream]

Lots of focus on the hard numbers and thats a good thing. One thing not mentioned here is the additional stability you feel in real world highway towing in cross wind, in heavy truck traffic, etc, when you have a bigger/heavier truck (ie, having more truck than you need). This is difficult to describe or accept, unless you have towed a variety of trailers and/or tow vehicles. I do have first hand experience, towing my 25' FC with a half ton (F-150) and then the exact same trailer and WD hitch, with a 3/4 ton (F-250) and independent of the payload gain, the stability gain at highway speeds is immediately evident, and for me, a clear win in the comparison between them. With the F-150 I would often feel the truck/trailer combo being "pushed around" by wind, or passing trucks, and towing with the F-250, that is significantly reduced. I don't have much other towing experience so I can't make a wider, more general comparison based on experience, but I can for my trailer. I have posted in other threads that a primary reason I upgraded my truck was for this additional stability, but it is also true that the CAT scale tickets proved in my (F-150) case that my (F-150) rear axle was above its rated limit, even though I still had several hundred pounds of payload remaining based on the payload number on the yellow sticker. Its complex, I dont think one answer can serve all, and in my view, the only way you know where you stand is take your rig, loaded for your style of travel (water tanks filled or not, etc) and get the answers at the scale (aka CAT scale). I do think the 3/4 ton class vehicle is the best choice, but as long as you have weighed your rig, and nothing (axle, payload, GVWR, GCWR) is above the mfr ratings, then if you like 1/2 ton, I don't see any issue.

[civeng99]

Originally Posted by mefly2

Yes, trying to find your choice of TVs is nearly impossible at this time ... and likely to get worse. Make a good choice because you may have it for some time unless thing change for the better.

I don’t get what the big thing is about ordering a vehicle. We did last year. Pick what you want. Wait. Not a big deal. Personally I wonder if this is just going to be the new way of doing business. Can you imagine the dealer costs for carrying $10, $20mil in cars on the lot?

[LLninja]

This is what I want as my next tow vehicle. I personally know the CEO, but unfortunately, they are focused on fleet customers and not general consumers at the moment

https://zeuselectricchassis.com/

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by RedSHED

I read it as payload = gross vehicle weight - empty weight. If he's under gvwr, by definition, he's under payload weight, which is what he meant by formula. However, he's also choosing to respect axle limits, as payload isn't the only limit involved, and the sticker is there so we don't have to do arithmetic. Mebbe I misread ?

I completely agree. The payload sticker is for making a decision on which TV to buy. After you buy it, it is not so useful because you can’t measure it. You can measure GVWR and the axle limits which is what I believe you need to be under.

Now as to the question of having too much TV, my answer is definitely, but I realize that I am in the minority here. Too much TV means the wrong tool for the job. Too expensive, too large, turning radius too big, suspension too firm for your Airstream, etc. I love my Tundra, but I am a small vehicle person and do wish that it was smaller.

Dan

[jondrew55]

I loved my Tundra too. I'd given it to my son several years ago and it's still chugging along at 150K miles or whatever. I will say that my RAM 2500 Diesel is every bit as easy to drive as the Tundra was. I think the turn radius is very similar (Tundra was a long bed). And gas milage wise? The Tundra was and is a pig with that 5.7 in it. I really wish Toyota had made the leap to the 3/4 ton truck.

Originally Posted by TouringDan

I completely agree. The payload sticker is for making a decision on which TV to buy. After you buy it, it is not so useful because you can’t measure it. You can measure GVWR and the axle limits which is what I believe you need to be under.

Now as to the question of having too much TV, my answer is definitely, but I realize that I am in the minority here. Too much TV means the wrong tool for the job. Too expensive, too large, turning radius too big, suspension too firm for your Airstream, etc. I love my Tundra, but I am a small vehicle person and do wish that it was smaller.

DanAttachment 411086

[jcl]

Originally Posted by 1StreamDream

Lots of focus on the hard numbers and thats a good thing. One thing not mentioned here is the additional stability you feel in real world highway towing in cross wind, in heavy truck traffic, etc, when you have a bigger/heavier truck (ie, having more truck than you need). This is difficult to describe or accept, unless you have towed a variety of trailers and/or tow vehicles. I do have first hand experience, towing my 25' FC with a half ton (F-150) and then the exact same trailer and WD hitch, with a 3/4 ton (F-250) and independent of the payload gain, the stability gain at highway speeds is immediately evident, and for me, a clear win in the comparison between them. With the F-150 I would often feel the truck/trailer combo being "pushed around" by wind, or passing trucks, and towing with the F-250, that is significantly reduced. I don't have much other towing experience so I can't make a wider, more general comparison based on experience, but I can for my trailer. I have posted in other threads that a primary reason I upgraded my truck was for this additional stability, but it is also true that the CAT scale tickets proved in my (F-150) case that my (F-150) rear axle was above its rated limit, even though I still had several hundred pounds of payload remaining based on the payload number on the yellow sticker. Its complex, I dont think one answer can serve all, and in my view, the only way you know where you stand is take your rig, loaded for your style of travel (water tanks filled or not, etc) and get the answers at the scale (aka CAT scale). I do think the 3/4 ton class vehicle is the best choice, but as long as you have weighed your rig, and nothing (axle, payload, GVWR, GCWR) is above the mfr ratings, then if you like 1/2 ton, I don't see any issue.

If you were within the GVWR, and over the rear axle rating, then that suggests you didn't have sufficient WD, eg bar tension. Doing so would not change your overall weight, but it would shift some forward virtually.

Having the WD set up as you did would also impact how it felt on the highway. If you wanted a larger truck, great. But the first step is often setup of the combination.