Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries

[lajuene]

Originally Posted by SCOTTinNJ

6 batteries? Wow.

I know but we love to boondock in Quartzsite and other places and we never turn off the inverter because we are fulltime and like to live just like 5 years ago when we had a house. I don't think we'll ever go the "run the AC off the batteries" route that I have seen others do with lithiums but they do make me jealous.... of their setup NOT their battery purchase bill.

This is our current setup until Thursday anyway.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by lajuene

I know but we love to boondock in Quartzsite and other places and we never turn off the inverter because we are fulltime and like to live just like 5 years ago when we had a house. I don't think we'll ever go the "run the AC off the batteries" route that I have seen others do with lithiums but they do make me jealous.... of their setup NOT their battery purchase bill.

This is our current setup until Thursday anyway.
Attachment 302821

I don't want to veer too far off topic, but I assume you recharge with solar? How much solar do you have?

I'd be interested to see if the lithium batteries accept a faster charge than your current batteries.

I have 300 Ah of Battle Borne batteries and 200w of solar on my roof. Thus far I've found that 200w just about keeps up with our usage if we are in full sun, even in the winter. By conventional standards I should have more like 300w-400w of solar.

I did size my wires and controller for that, but haven't added the panels yet.

[switz]

We put five 100 watt solar panels on the roof of our 2015 23D with a 300 amp-hour lithium battery and nine 100 watt panels on the roof of our 2014 31' Classic with a 600 amp hour lithium battery. Those nine panels generate all the power the TriStar 60 MPPT solar charge controller can digest.

The lithium batteries can accept all you can throw at them from solar system charging and even extremely hi charge rates from shore power.

[lajuene]

We have five 150W panels for 750W total. I read somewhere that the solar total should be the same as battery bank or higher. I suppose that's just for efficiency. Big solar and small battery equals wasted money on panels.
We dodn't meet that rule of thumb because we had 900AH bank and 750W solar. Now with Battle Born Lithiums we will be even further off on it's face with 750 solar and only 600AH bank but the Lithium will give us a slightly larger usable AH than the bigger 900AH Lifeline AGM's.

Here's the roof before and after solar panels were installed by AMSolar in 2012...
PS - We have basement AC so there's more room on the roof.
[ATTACH]before panels[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]After panels[/ATTACH]

[lajuene]

Here's the reason we like lighter batteries. This was us on the Cassier Highway a couple years ago.

http://walkaboutwithwheels.blogspot....nt-happen.html

Enjoy and learn from our mistake if you move your batteries to a new location.

[JayTheCPA]

Great discussion!

Want to dust this off a bit seeing as the conversation slowed down . . .


Looked like we covered two of the three charging paths (shore & solar) pretty well. What about the more common setup of charging from the tow vehicle?


I caught a mini seminar in the marine application and have a couple questions coming from that perspective, so they may, or may not, apply.

Seeing as the lithium battery can / will accept a huge amount of current (relative to a lead battery) for as long as it wants, does this have an effect on the tow vehicle's alternator(s) health? Scenario: boondocking for the weekend on battery only (no solar or generator) and hook the trailer up for the tow home. Or is a lower-end ~110 Amp to mid range 140 Amp alternator able to handle this and operate at 100% output for however long to charge the trailer's lithium battery (or at least get up to the float level)? Granted the TV's battery(ies) will act as a capacitor and help to push current back to the trailer, but the alternator will still need to replenish the whole system.

Related question. IIRC the hot lead wiring for the trailer is commonly 10 or 12 gauge to the 7 pin, so was this the focus of an early comment about needing to address the wiring? Similar to the alternator handling high output question, is the tow vehicle wiring up to the task? Same question for the 7 pin. Or is this not a factor just like with lead batteries where the length and gauge of the wire serves as its own form of throttle?

[bbandeddie]

Originally Posted by JayTheCPA

.

Related question. IIRC the hot lead wiring for the trailer is commonly 10 or 12 gauge to the 7 pin, so was this the focus of an early comment about needing to address the wiring? Similar to the alternator handling high output question, is the tow vehicle wiring up to the task? Same question for the 7 pin. Or is this not a factor just like with lead batteries where the length and gauge of the wire serves as its own form of throttle?

Nailed it in one Jay. That’s a very long wiring run for the kind of amps the Li would be pulling. Huge voltage loss and risk of electrical damage. Yes, you can do it and there are discussion threads covering it, but it does require running, IIRC, 2/0 or 4/0 power cable from alternator/battery to the trailer and from the trailer hitch to the batteries. I suspect some other safe guards would also be required but that’s beyond where I stopped paying attention after deciding it wasn’t feasible for me to DIY.

[SilverHouseDreams]

Originally Posted by JayTheCPA

Great discussion!

Want to dust this off a bit seeing as the conversation slowed down . . .


Looked like we covered two of the three charging paths (shore & solar) pretty well. What about the more common setup of charging from the tow vehicle?


I caught a mini seminar in the marine application and have a couple questions coming from that perspective, so they may, or may not, apply.

Seeing as the lithium battery can / will accept a huge amount of current (relative to a lead battery) for as long as it wants, does this have an effect on the tow vehicle's alternator(s) health? Scenario: boondocking for the weekend on battery only (no solar or generator) and hook the trailer up for the tow home. Or is a lower-end ~110 Amp to mid range 140 Amp alternator able to handle this and operate at 100% output for however long to charge the trailer's lithium battery (or at least get up to the float level)? Granted the TV's battery(ies) will act as a capacitor and help to push current back to the trailer, but the alternator will still need to replenish the whole system.

Related question. IIRC the hot lead wiring for the trailer is commonly 10 or 12 gauge to the 7 pin, so was this the focus of an early comment about needing to address the wiring? Similar to the alternator handling high output question, is the tow vehicle wiring up to the task? Same question for the 7 pin. Or is this not a factor just like with lead batteries where the length and gauge of the wire serves as its own form of throttle?

I think my thread here comes closest to talking to that subject: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...rn-173827.html

There is no conclusion at this point though, however due to the voltage mismatch between your lithium battery bank and the TV...by default not much is going to happen, and in most cases the voltage may actually flow from the TT to the TV (due to lithium higher voltage potential). One possible solution is to look at an isolate DC-DC converter, such as the Victron Orion-TR 12/12-18A. This device would allow converting the lower TV power to actually charge the TT batteries, while preventing flow of electrons from the TT into the TT as well as act as a "power regulator" to keep from drawing too many amps across the tiny 7-pin power line.

[switz]

We isolated the lithium battery from tow vehicle charging in both trailers as there is no voltage regulation in the TV that is appropriate for the lithium iron phosphate battery. Also, if the temperatures are 32 degrees or less, then the lithium battery, as of now, does not want to be charged.

[waninae39]

Originally Posted by SilverHouseDreams

I installed a Battle Born LiPO4 battery in our 22FB last week. ...

can you please post photo of the install in the 22FB

i have a 22fb AND want to install them under the bed on the left hand side

TWO will fit
what are the dimensions of the battery
are they the 2x 100A size

i want to do this in the spring once we get the trailer out of storage

[Engstroms]

Great thread, thanks all.

Battle Born 100ah size is 12.75 x 6.875 x 9 (LWH). I just purchased 2 of them and plan to install them on end under the bed, left side front of our 27FB.

[Engstroms]

As a part of my Battle Born LiFePO4 upgrade I worked with Progressive Dynamics to get the PD4655V charger with the new LI/WIZ jumper. I had purchased the PD4655V last June, it was the old board that didn’t have the ability to turn off the 4-stage charging. Progressive Dynamics was great to work with. Here are pictures of the new board and LI/WIZ jumper

[waninae39]

hi i have the old Pd4655 with no li ion support
i cant find the model you mention on their site
any insight
https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/po...#charge-wizard

[SilverHouseDreams]

Originally Posted by waninae39

can you please post photo of the install in the 22FB

i have a 22fb AND want to install them under the bed on the left hand side

TWO will fit
what are the dimensions of the battery
are they the 2x 100A size

i want to do this in the spring once we get the trailer out of storage

It is a tight space that is very dark, so it was difficult to actually get photos that showed very much. I ordered a "NOCO BT31S Black Group 24-31 HD Battery Tray" from Amazon to mount it in. I then found an arrangement that worked for me and screwed it to the floor. I would buy a dual-battery tray if you plan on doing 2 batteries, so far I don't think I will need 2 but I will know more after the season for using it returns

I am not sure I see a use case for me personally to need 200Ah, as it just makes it take longer to charge...and since I am anti-inverter and do not own one, 100Ah should last at least 4 days if it is warm enough to not need the furnace and we don't really plan to do a lot of cool weather stationary boon docking at this point. I will be adding a DC-DC inverter to allow the TV to charge the TT while in transit.

[waninae39]

Denis from PD called back

both the old 4655 and the new 4655 have the exact same model number
the new supports Lion. the site has NOT been updated. There is no way to tell which one you have unless you look at the board and see the switch for LI wiz jumper

he stated that the old unit can go up to 14.4v in boost mode. It will auto turn off after 4 hours

[waninae39]

Tnx silverdreams,
you have good posts

i am just thinking about options
YES it is very tight. I would like to clean the area and have better wiring
also does it make sense to have the converter by the fridge instead of under the bed ie reduce power losses

i called battle born 4 times today, no answer- are they still in business

[Engstroms]

Originally Posted by waninae39

Denis from PD called back

both the old 4655 and the new 4655 have the exact same model number
the new supports Lion. the site has NOT been updated. There is no way to tell which one you have unless you look at the board and see the switch for LI wiz jumper

he stated that the old unit can go up to 14.4v in boost mode. It will auto turn off after 4 hours

waninae39,

Yes, no change to model number, user manual is even the same.

I sent an email to service@progressivedyn.com and they swapped the boards for me under warranty as an RGA. They said price for the board swap is $145. Easy to push the Wizard overide to put into Boost Mode, not sure I'd pay the $145 if I had to.

[SilverHouseDreams]

Originally Posted by waninae39

Denis from PD called back
...
he stated that the old unit can go up to 14.4v in boost mode. It will auto turn off after 4 hours

Which is true, but it doesn't tell the full story. The issue isn't that you can't *make* it charge, it is that you can't force it to be at a high enough resting voltage that it will act as an online converter powering the trailer while plugged in. I agree that the one you have is better than the factory converter, at least you can actually get it to charge by triggering the boost mode...however when it ends the 4-hour period you will likely end up with all of your power being drawn back out of the battery. (due to the battery having a higher resting voltage and willingness to provide power than the "normal" mode on the PD4655)

One manual solution is to use a BMS to track the state of your batteries, when you get to shore power you put the PD4655 into boost mode and when charging is complete you put your battery into "store" mode. This will force the converter to continue powering everything, other than your propane detector. In my case my solar remains connected to the battery when in "store" mode, so that covers the propane detector in spades. That way when you depart you know that your battery is fully charged and take it out of store mode, otherwise you'd have to manually initiate boost to restore to 100% SOC before departing.

Now with some creativity on the Victron BMS-7x2 and the charge relay settings you could possibly automate this to an extent, but it would take some testing to work through it.

I actually had plans of testing how this would actually work for those that don't have the Lithium upgraded PD4655, I can easily put mine into lead acid mode and use the Wizard remote to control it like you would...but the city issued a tow order on my AS and I had to take it to storage for the season.

Originally Posted by waninae39

Tnx silverdreams,
you have good posts

i am just thinking about options
YES it is very tight. I would like to clean the area and have better wiring
also does it make sense to have the converter by the fridge instead of under the bed ie reduce power losses

i called battle born 4 times today, no answer- are they still in business

Thanks, I try to be helpful and share what I've learned as it is the only way to repay everyone for all of the knowledge I've gained from the forum. What info are you wanting to get from BB? They are pretty small staff wise, so you may want to drop them an email as I doubt they have a team of people managing phones.

The issue would be then you would have to run AC power to the new converter location and the "home" for the converter would then be wasted space that can't be used for anything else. You'd also have to build some vented enclosure around it to protect the circuitry. Another option would be to run larger gauge wire from the batteries to the converter, I can't remember if the large gauge wires just run in some wrap under the cabinets or if it is within the wall/framing.

In theory AS sized the wiring to be adequate for the factory 55-amp converter, though the reality is that it was probably not sized expecting a battery that could actually take 55-amps continuously...and 2 BattleBorns should easily be able to draw 55-amps out of the converter. I would look at upgrading the DC lines from the power distribution center to the battery before relocating the converter personally. I don't have any DC loads that would ever put a strain on those lines, so it would only save me a small amount of time charging (in theory, but may be no measurable difference).

[waninae39]

tnx .

i check when i get the as22fb out of storage. i know that area is VERY ting ht and i may have to remove the hinge platform and the mattress to do any serous work

i just ordered these off amazon to get ready for the spring. hopefully i will have a new battery by then also. hopefully before our first trip

[NoResults]

I am confused as to why most everyone here wants to install their new batteries inside. It would seem they put a battery box on the outside for a reason.

Freezing temp? No if it is freezing out it is probably freezing in. Putting them inside takes away from your storage.