HELP! Lithium batteries dead but blow a circuit when plugged in

[John Ware]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Whatever the magic "recognition" process is ..... it's not working. The converter still thinks it has a lead acid battery. Is there some magic process to get it to reset and decide again what battery it has? I would not be surprised to find that the battery needs to be up at some magic voltage ( = fully charged ) *before* the converter is attached .... That's just a guess, so who knows .....

Bob

Bob, I think you're right because my converter got confused once and shifted to float mode on me last week at the lake. I got the blinking blue circle treatment at 2am.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by hikingcamera

Yeah, when I took that screenshot we were running both fans, the fridge, probably some other 12 volt things. But that’s it.



........

Hi

Unless you had the inverter running something fairly large ( = not a tablet charger ) it's unlikely those loads would pull > 20A.

Still, turn off / unplug all the 12V loads except the fridge. Keep the converter running. Watch the current shown on the BMV-712 and see if it gets up to > 20A. It should go up over 40A ....

If all is working properly, the converter should chug up to 14.6V putting out well over 20A the whole time. Once it gets there, it will back off to 13.6V. The "history" tab on the BMV-712 app will then show "max battery volts" of 14.6V.

Bob

Bob

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Silverminer

I wouldn't use an EMS with a generator. That's just me. If it's running then your good. Just make sure the generator is running then plug into the trailer.

Using the EMS with the generator can save your a/c motor from burning out as your generator runs out of gas in the middle of the night. Thought we could make it through till the morning, but didn't. The EMS cut off power instantly instead of having it peter out over a longer time. Not sure if it would cause damage or not, but with the EMS we're much safer.


Easy to use a generator & EMS, you just need a grounding plug adapter for the 30-amp outlet on the generator.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Using the EMS with the generator can save your a/c motor from burning out as your generator runs out of gas in the middle of the night. Thought we could make it through till the morning, but didn't. The EMS cut off power instantly instead of having it peter out over a longer time. Not sure if it would cause damage or not, but with the EMS we're much safer.


Easy to use a generator & EMS, you just need a grounding plug adapter for the 30-amp outlet on the generator.

^This

Not sure why you wouldn't run an EMS with a generator. For my single (20A plug) or when using two generators together I use 1 (or 2) of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Also to get the full 20A for one I use this and the EMS:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...e?ie=UTF8&th=1

https://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems-pt50x


Straight from the PI manual at Page 5 for the EMS-PT50X:

"The EMS can be used with a generator. A bonded neutral generator is recommended. If your generator is not neutral grounded you can find articles on multiple websites detailing ways to properly bond a generator."

[richard5933]

This is the neutral/ground bonding plug I got from Genconnex. Works great with my EMS.

[hikingcamera]

There seems to be some confusion here. I have a 30A trailer. We are currently connected to a 40 amp circuit with a 50 amp outlet, using a 50 to 30 dogbone, our EMS, and our 30amp cord. (This is not how we started this trip, but moved after our batteries died on the first night/morning.)

The reason I have not used an EMS with the generator is because it doesn’t have a 30amp port, but I guess I could use the 15 to 30 dogbone to do that. Also our generator is our truck so if it ran out of gas we’d have bigger issues. I only run it for a bit.

Attached is what my dashboard is reading now (input from solar, 30A cord, a few 12-volt lights, 1 fantastic fan running). It seems like according to the tag on my circuit breaker panel, maybe it is setup correctly? 13.6V presumably for a 30A connection (assuming that’s what is covered)?

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by hikingcamera

There seems to be some confusion here. I have a 30A trailer. We are currently connected to a 40 amp circuit with a 50 amp outlet, using a 50 to 30 dogbone, our EMS, and our 30amp cord. (This is not how we started this trip, but moved after our batteries died on the first night/morning.)

The reason I have not used an EMS with the generator is because it doesn’t have a 30amp port, but I guess I could use the 15 to 30 dogbone to do that. Also our generator is our truck so if it ran out of gas we’d have bigger issues. I only run it for a bit.

Attached is what my dashboard is reading now (input from solar, 30A cord, a few 12-volt lights, 1 fantastic fan running). It seems like according to the tag on my circuit breaker panel, maybe it is setup correctly? 13.6V presumably for a 30A connection (assuming that’s what is covered)?

The screen shot you're showing has nothing to do with the 120v input, so I'm not sure why you're talking about 13.6v for a 30A connection??

The 30A connection is your 120v input. Your 12v system is separate from that, and as long as you have enough current flowing into the system to power the converter it should be charging your batteries.

What does your BMS show? (The Victron 712, smart shunt, etc.)

[John Ware]

HC, ck out your model converter on the WFCO web site and it explains it's operation in detail. Be sure and go to the Lithium ion section. The part of your tag that is covered up doesn't say 30 amp.

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by richard5933

The screen shot you're showing has nothing to do with the 120v input, so I'm not sure why you're talking about 13.6v for a 30A connection??

The 30A connection is your 120v input. Your 12v system is separate from that, and as long as you have enough current flowing into the system to power the converter it should be charging your batteries.

What does your BMS show? (The Victron 712, smart shunt, etc.)

Well, as previously mentioned, I really don’t know what I’m talking about. I was just responding to the other comments about that panel. I’ve been told that my battery monitor should be reading 14.4V when fully charged, and it’s not been. But I also have not been able to take a fully charged reading at night with all the 12-volt items off. I’ll have that opportunity for the rfirst time tonight.

Below is the screenshots of my BMS that I shared earlier.

[WellSaid11]

They won’t stay at 14.4 for long as they will go into bulk at a lower number.

For example, per Battle Born on recommended settings for the CC with solar:

One component we often recommend is the Victron Energy SmartSolar MPPT charge controllers for systems equipped with solar. With Solar Charge Controllers we recommend the following settings:

bulk and absorption: 14.2-14.6 volts (aiming for a sweet spot of 14.4 is recommended)
float: 13.6

[John Ware]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

They won’t stay at 14.4 for long as they will go into bulk at a lower number.

For example, per Battle Born on recommended settings for the CC with solar:

One component we often recommend is the Victron Energy SmartSolar MPPT charge controllers for systems equipped with solar. With Solar Charge Controllers we recommend the following settings:

bulk and absorption: 14.2-14.6 volts (aiming for a sweet spot of 14.4 is recommended)
float: 13.6

True. If I read the web site correctly, the 14.4 charge rate is maintained for four hours. HC's problem may have cleared itself.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by John Ware

True. If I read the web site correctly, the 14.4 charge rate is for four hours.

Yep, give or take. The number he posted could be going up to the 14’s max or coming down into float.

[hikingcamera]

Okay, so if I’m reading this thread and the manual correctly, another test that it’s reading correctly is to wait another day or so to see if the voltage drops again to 13.2, then it would mean it’s setup incorrectly, because for a Lithium battery it should stay in absorption and not go down to float.

I’ve ordered a neutral bonding plug, so we’ll see how the generator works then. For now, I just need to figure out a way to charge my trailer at home. Might just need to leave my garage door open and maybe unplug my freezer so I can charge from the non GFCI circuit in there until we get the 30A installed.

[Silverminer]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

The one point not addressed:

Is your converter / charger properly set up for Lithium batteries? If it is still set up for lead acids, your results will be very poor.

Next up:

On most rigs, running the inverter is not at all a good idea. They pull a lot of current just sitting there and not doing much. Is that an amp or is it several amps? It depends on various settings ( if yours is programable ), the power rating, the model , brand and even the year it was made.

Bottom line is that running the inverter to power usb this or usb that is a really bad idea. Get some 12V USB charger gizmos and wire them up to a 12V circuit. The power drain will be dramatically less ( like half / a third / 10% ...).

Down the road:

First off, watch some YouTube videos on RV power. Learn what your multimeter does Better to learn in a relaxed fashion than at 3AM with various alarms going off and the trailer rapidly cooling to below freezing ....

Consider a shunt, like the Victron BMV-712 to tell you what your batteries are doing and where you are at. Without something like that, there is no way to know what's going on. If you will be relying on batteries, this is information you will need to have. Voltage readings (especially on lithiums) do not tell you what's going on. Voltage readings on a lead acid meter when running lithium will very quickly lead you astray.

Corrections:

Your 15A outlet if it is set up right, is plenty to charge your batteries. The previous post about it not being up to the task was confusing current at 12V and current at 120V. They are not the same thing.


Bob

I agree with Bob, running the inverter is not a good idea. Unless if you need to run a laptop for awhile when not on shore power.

[Silverminer]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

They won’t stay at 14.4 for long as they will go into bulk at a lower number.

For example, per Battle Born on recommended settings for the CC with solar:

One component we often recommend is the Victron Energy SmartSolar MPPT charge controllers for systems equipped with solar. With Solar Charge Controllers we recommend the following settings:

bulk and absorption: 14.2-14.6 volts (aiming for a sweet spot of 14.4 is recommended)
float: 13.6

My 2022 International came with the Victron Controller. I know nothing about the Lithium Batteries. Since we always like to be on shore power, I'll probably wait until our new Lead batteries get to the end of their life. With that said, bulk and absorption over 13.6 seems really high. I know with Lead batteries, Colonial Airstream said a showing of 14 or above could spell trouble. It seems from everything that's been said, your problem is the GFCI on your outlet. Remove it with the outlet on its own breaker is the way to go. Airstreams are very sophisticated depending on the year and make. All your troubles are probable due to the imbedded safety features. And if the battleborn batteries were not set up properly then you'll need to take it into service. From what I've been told when I was thinking about switching to the Lithium batteries, the setup is very complicated and takes hours to do properly.

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by Silverminer

With that said, bulk and absorption over 13.6 seems really high. I know with Lead batteries, Colonial Airstream said a showing of 14 or above could spell trouble.

This is from the BattleBorn manual:

How to Properly Charge the Batteries
To properly charge your Battle Born batteries, you will want to verify that any charging component in your system is capable of being programmed for the following specifications. Charging components can include, but are not limited to converters, inverter chargers, solar charge controllers, DC to DC chargers, etc.
• Bulk/Absorption: 14.2V – 14.6V
• Absorption Time: 30 minutes per battery (for parallel string)
• Float: 13.4V – 13.8V
• Equalization: 14.4V/ Disabled

The battery charge levels got brought up after folks looked at my Victron readouts and questioned the numbers, but it seems like, according to the converter panel and Batteborn manuals that everything is operating within spec on that front.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by Silverminer

With that said, bulk and absorption over 13.6 seems really high. I know with Lead batteries, Colonial Airstream said a showing of 14 or above could spell trouble.

Completely different scenario between the two battery types. Over 13.6 is not high at all and the info I posted above (as did HC) is directly from BB - they make the batteries and AS will print that info in the trailer's manual.

Originally Posted by Silverminer

If the battleborn batteries were not set up properly then you'll need to take it into service. From what I've been told when I was thinking about switching to the Lithium batteries, the setup is very complicated and takes hours to do properly.

Not sure who told you this, but the batteries do not really to need to be "setup" other than making sure your settings on the charge controller and a few others places are correct for your system. These tweaks can be done by most end users without taking it in for service.

If you are talking about the swap from AGM to lithium, etc., then yes, that will take time and often can be complicated. However, people do that all the time and there are endless examples on here of it being done DIY.

[Silverminer]

Originally Posted by hikingcamera

Okay, so if I’m reading this thread and the manual correctly, another test that it’s reading correctly is to wait another day or so to see if the voltage drops again to 13.2, then it would mean it’s setup incorrectly, because for a Lithium battery it should stay in absorption and not go down to float.

I’ve ordered a neutral bonding plug, so we’ll see how the generator works then. For now, I just need to figure out a way to charge my trailer at home. Might just need to leave my garage door open and maybe unplug my freezer so I can charge from the non GFCI circuit in there until we get the 30A installed.

If you have a freezer plugged in then that is the problem. That's not enough juice to plug the Airstream in and run both. It will trip your GFCI. Just a few times they're toast. I have a small dehumidifier running in my garage which is like a small refrigerator and that's all I dare to have on at the same time. And If I do turn on my AC in my Airstream, I make sure to turn off the dehumidifier first. I recommend what I did. You should have an electrical breaker panel in your garage. Have your electrician add a separate 30Amp breaker just for your RV outlet. It will be a double breaker. In my case I had to add a new larger electrical panel to accommodate it. I ran a line off it across the ceiling to the other side of the garage and out to a 30AMP outlet (no GFCI). The entire job cost me about $1000.00. I always turn the juice on and off from the breaker itself. With the 30Amp dog bone going into my EMS monitor, I never have to worry about be under voltage, etc. Regardless of whatever underlining issues are, this setup will set your mind free when it comes to charging your batteries at home. Sorry the photos are coming up side ways. You should be able to click on them. I do not recommend going from a 30Amp down to a 15Amp dog bone into a regular outlet. It may get too hot.

[hikingcamera]

Originally Posted by Silverminer

If you have a freezer plugged in then that is the problem. That's not enough juice to plug the Airstream in and run both. It will trip your GFCI. Just a few times they're toast. I have a small dehumidifier running in my garage which is like a small refrigerator and that's all I dare to have on at the same time. And If I do turn on my AC in my Airstream, I make sure to turn off the dehumidifier first. I recommend what I did. You should have an electrical breaker panel in your garage. Have your electrician add a separate 30Amp breaker just for your RV outlet. It will be a double breaker. In my case I had to add a new larger electrical panel to accommodate it. I ran a line off it across the ceiling to the other side of the garage and out to a 30AMP outlet (no GFCI). The entire job cost me about $1000.00. I always turn the juice on and off from the breaker itself. With the 30Amp dog bone going into my EMS monitor, I never have to worry about be under voltage, etc. Regardless of whatever underlining issues are, this setup will set your mind free when it comes to charging your batteries at home. Sorry the photos are coming up side ways. You should be able to click on them. I do not recommend going from a 30Amp down to a 15Amp dog bone into a regular outlet. It may get too hot.

The fridge is on a separate non-GFCI panel, not the GFCI panel I’ve been plugging into that has a few batteries charging on it which I disconnected when trying to charge my Airstream. As I said, my next step is to try the non GFCI outlet, but I’ll have to disconnect the freezer to do that for the reasons you stated above.

I’ve not tried powering things from the GFCI at home, all I wanted was to top off the batteries before our trip, but was not able to do that.

And yes, we are going to add a 30 amp receptacle, though I don’t have a breaker box in the garage. We are going to have the breaker on the receptacle panel.

[John Ware]

Looks like you have it under control, HC.