Electrical burning, heavy smoke w/ 3yr old grandson sleeping in AI

[pdavitt]

Pahaska


Not sure which ground wire you are referring to as being 14 AWG, there are two. If it is the AC Ground coming in from the AC Source to the Inverter/Charger, that may be ok. As long as the ground wire is about the same size as the AC hot and neutral wires. The ground wire that could be a problem is the Magnum's Chassis Ground, which is a DC Ground. According to ABYC this wire should be no less than one size smaller than the DC Positive wire connected to the inverter/charger. And, go directly to the DC Negative/Ground bus.


Pat

[Pahaska]

Originally Posted by pdavitt

Pahaska


Not sure which ground wire you are referring to as being 14 AWG.
Pat

I was referring to the bare wire that connects to a clamp on the bottom of the Magnum. That wire goes to a common grounding buss bar nearby.

The AC in and AC out are #14 Romex and their grounds are all connected with a wire nut inside the Magnum outer cover.

[pdavitt]

What size is the DC positive wire into the inverter/ charger?
Pat

[Pahaska]

Originally Posted by pdavitt

What size is the DC positive wire into the inverter/ charger?
Pat

According to the parts manual, both positive and negative leads are 2 ga. welding cable.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by pdavitt

What size is the DC positive wire into the inverter/ charger?
Pat

Hi Pat,

Since you pointed out earlier that the schematic shows the inverter ground wire being #8 gauge, I imagine you are aware that the schematic shows both the pos(+) and neg(-) DC cables as #1/0, and you are attempting to confirm that is actually the case -- is that correct?

[sajohnson]

Directly from the Magnum 1012 manual:

http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sit...Series_Web.pdf

Page 10:

WARNINGS:
• Do not mount the inverter near any flammable or
combustible fluid or components.
• Provide adequate clearance/ventilation to the inverter.
• Mount only on a non-combustible surface.
• Maximum ambient temperature around the inverter
must not exceed 77°F (25°C) to meet power specifi -
cations.

~~~

Ventilated – In order for the inverter to provide full output power
and avoid over-temperature fault conditions, do not cover or block
the inverter’s ventilation openings or install this inverter in an area
with limited airflow.

Allow as much clearance around the inverter’s
intake and exhaust ventilation openings as possible (see Figure 4,
Items 16 & 17). At the minimum, allow an airspace clearance of
3” (7.5 cm) on all sides to provide adequate ventilation.

If installed in an enclosure, a fresh air intake opening must be provided
directly to the front side (intake vent) and an exhaust opening
on the back side (exhaust vent) of the inverter. This will allow
cool air from the outside to flow into the inverter, and heated air to
exit away from the inverter and the enclosure.

When mounted in an
enclosed compartment, airfl ow must be at least 59 cfm in order to
maintain no more than a 68°F (20°C) rise in compartment temperature.
Minimum clearances can be reduced if airfl ow is increased, but
in no case should clearance around the inverter be less than 2” (5
cm) on all sides.

~~~

Safe – Keep any flammable/combustible material (e.g., paper, cloth,
plastic, etc.) that may be ignited by heat, sparks, or flames at a
minimum distance of 2 feet (60 cm) from the inverter.

~~~

Accessible – Do not block access to the inverter’s remote control
and accessory ports. Also, allow enough room to access the AC and
DC wiring connections, as they will need to be checked and tightened
periodically. See Figure 9 & 10 for the MMS inverter’s dimensions.
Mounting Orientation – To meet regulatory requirements, the MMS
Series inverter/charger can only be mounted on a horizontal surface
(shelf or table) or a vertical surface (wall or bulkhead) either rightside
up or upside-down, as shown in Figure 8. The inverter must be
mounted on a non-combustible surface...

~~~

Judging by what has been posted here (I haven't personally seen the installation in the AI) the above may be an issue.

If so, then at least some fault may lie with AS.

[wachuko]

It is under the rear side seat (seat cushion removed)



It is installed on a lose board...just a wood panel that is covered with the same laminate...

[wachuko]

Now I am just getting paranoid, but with reason...

This is how is usually setup... seat cushion in place... and the second photo is how I am keeping it for now... but when we travel it is made into a bed and everything is covered with bed sheets...with inside temps reaching 111 ºF I am worried...

And to top it all off... this morning I noticed the chassis battery lowered than I have ever seen it... what the heck is going on!!?? I have it plugged into the 15amp outlet!! I unplugged it... ran the AI and got it back to 12.9 (13.0 in the photo but it settled to 12.9). I will check all the fuses to make sure nothing is wrong with the ACR...

[gmillerok1]

Originally Posted by wachuko

It is under the rear side seat (seat cushion removed)

Seriously? The board the inverter/charger is mounted to is just sitting on top of something and not secured to anything? Just bouncing around as you drive down the road?

That would be problematic for many reasons, not to mention in violation of the installation manual instructions.

[pdavitt]

Originally Posted by sajohnson

Hi Pat,

Since you pointed out earlier that the schematic shows the inverter ground wire being #8 gauge, I imagine you are aware that the schematic shows both the pos(+) and neg(-) DC cables as #1/0, and you are attempting to confirm that is actually the case -- is that correct?

Yep. Was just curious if the installation wire sizes matched up with the drawing.


Pat

[Boom23]

Originally Posted by gmillerok1

Seriously? The board the inverter/charger is mounted to is just sitting on top of something and not secured to anything? Just bouncing around as you drive down the road?

That would be problematic for many reasons, not to mention in violation of the installation manual instructions.

On my 2018 TB GT, I was able to move up/down the right end of the board that the inverter is bolted on. It was resting on the wheel well insulation with some pieces of cardboard box between. The left end of the inverter board is attached to something.

As I did not like this install, I replaced the cardboard pieces with some thick felt material. I also modified a "L" bracket to attach the loose side of the board to the seat frame (right above the row of relays, in the picture).

Now, the inverter board has no play and the wheel well insulation is better protected.

[wachuko]

Boom23 - With everything shared on this thread, I will be doing the same... thank you for the idea.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by wachuko

It is under the rear side seat (seat cushion removed)



It is installed on a lose board...just a wood panel that is covered with the same laminate...

Wow.

First of all, nice looking coach -- what I can see of it.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Magnum would not approve...

That said, Magnum inverters have so much protection circuitry that if it does get hot the output will be reduced and if it really overheats it will simply shut down until it cools off.

IOW, while the installation is 'less than ideal', it may not have anything to do with the failure Alex experienced.

Regardless, it is not a good idea to ignore the mfr's installation instructions and rely on safety devices to prevent a 'meltdown' or fire.

I don't know much about protection circuitry, but I seem to recall reading that it should not be relied on repeatedly. That may not be the case here -- especially if most people are only using the 1012 to run small loads like the TV and/or other electronics. But if it's putting out close to its rated 1,000W for any length of time, it's gonna get pretty toasty under that seat.

I would think most owners would want to be able to use the full output on occasion -- if only for a few minutes. For example, using a toaster or making coffee. It depends on the unit, but some toasters and coffeemakers use less than 1,000W. Doing so will pull a significant amount of current from the batteries, but if they are healthy and have a good charge they will be fine. We make coffee all the time using inverter power and we only have 2 GC batteries.

In order to do that though, the 1012 needs some ventilation. For small loads it may be fine the way it is.

[Alex AVI]

General response to these folks who have been GREAT help in brainstorming ideas here:
PAT, SAJOHNSON GMILLEROK1, WACHUKO, BOOM23

SAJOHNSON - "If so, then at least some fault may lie with AS". I have already fired off a letter to Jackson Center with exactly those similar sentiments..

The Magnum inverter is indeed mounted on a piece of plywood with only the left side attached by a small bracket (towards rear of AI) and the right side (towards front of AI freely bouncing on top of wheel well and/or sliding a bit side-to-side with very little effort.

I have DEMANDED a conference call with AIRSTREAM and MAGNUM on this along with all the highlighted points SAJOHNSON had just posted because I read the same info from Magnum install manual earlier yesterday. Hang tight and will post their reply.

There are other things I have asked of them that I am not at liberty to post yet, since I do not know what their response will be. But rest assured, those include location of Magnum installation, clearance requirements , access requirements, temperature requirements, air circulation CFM requirements that are all specifically stated by Magnum - as it compares to it's current location in AI.

Maybe paranoid might be taking it too far, I certainly don't want you good folks out there going crazy for something that's only yet happened to me. But take this as a warning and do whatever pre-emptive precautions you think would serve you well until I get more info from them.

FYI - I have already consulted with 1 private attorney and 1 attorney from AG's office. I also have a good friend, a local Certified Class B mechanic that I am meeting with sometime this week. As you all can see, I am lining up my ducks. I have done this before (unfortunately) and know how to proceed if driven to such extremes but would prefer to not go through it again.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by Alex AVI

Maybe paranoid might be taking it too far, I certainly don't want you good folks out there going crazy for something that's only yet happened to me. But take this as a warning and do whatever pre-emptive precautions you think would serve you well until I get more info from them.

My unsolicited, non-professional advice would be to remove that cushion from on top of the inverter (or prop it up) when the seat is not being used. That should give it enough ventilation, even if it is used for heavy loads (e.g., a coffee maker) for short periods.

With the cushion in place it should be OK for light loads like an LCD TV.

Although what Alex experienced was clearly very serious, and needs to be thoroughly investigated, it's not as if there have been a rash of AIs bursting into flames, so there does not seem to be any reason to be overly concerned at this point. IOW, check the inverter, make sure it isn't getting hot, cables are tight etc, but don't be afraid to use it.

One thought -- apparently the 1012 is not mounted securely. A lot of rattling around could cause the hardware that secures the battery cable terminals to the 1012 to loosen.

A loose connection will cause arcing and that arcing becomes a vicious cycle. Arcing creates pitting and carbon deposits, carbon causes higher resistance which causes more arcing...

If it is allowed to continue, heat will begin to build up. Eventually it can get hot enough to begin to melt the insulation on the battery cables. That's where that wonderful smell comes from...

The maximum continuous input current is 133 amps. See page 15 of the manual:
http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sit...Series_Web.pdf

That's a lot of current. Even a fraction of that is enough to cause some serious arcing.

If I had to guess right now I'd say there's a good chance that's what happened.

Some handy info from page 34. Worth printing out:

~~~

Protection Mode

There are five fault conditions that will cause the inverter to shut
down: Low Battery, High Battery, Over-temperature, AC Overload,
and Internal faults. If your inverter has shut down, monitor the
status indicator and count the number of blinks that occur every
four seconds to determine the particular reason for the shutdown.
Refer to the Troubleshooting section to help diagnose/clear the
fault condition.

• Blinks on x1 every four seconds – Low Battery fault.
• Blinks on x2 every four seconds – High Battery fault.
• Blinks on x3 every four seconds – Over-temperature fault.
• Blinks on x4 every four seconds – AC Overload fault.
• Blinks on x5 every four seconds – Internal fault.

Charge Mode

The green LED status indicator provides additional information:

• Blinks off every four seconds – The unit is charging the
batteries connected to the inverter. The external AC power
(shorepower or generator) connected to the inverter’s input is
passing through the inverter and is powering the AC loads connected
to the inverter’s output.

~~~

And finally, from page 36:

4.1 Recommended Inverter and Battery Care

The MMS Series inverter/charger is designed to provide you with years
of trouble-free service. Even though there are no user-serviceable
parts, it is recommended that every 6 months you perform the following
maintenance steps to ensure optimum performance and extend
the life of your batteries.

WARNING: Prior to performing these checks, switch both
the AC and DC circuits OFF.

• Visually inspect the batteries for cracks, leaks, or swelling –
replace if necessary.
• Use baking soda to clean and remove any electrolyte spills or
buildups.
• Check and tighten all battery hold-down clamps.
• Clean and tighten (10 to 12 ft-lbs) all DC terminals
(battery and inverter) and connecting cables.
• Check/fi ll battery water levels (liquid lead acid batteries only).
• Check individual battery voltages (replace those that vary
more than 0.3 VDC from each other).
• Check all cable runs for signs of chafi ng – replace if necessary.
• Check the inverter’s cooling vents – clean as necessary.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by sajohnson

My unsolicited, non-professional advice would be to remove that cushion from on top of the inverter (or prop it up) when the seat is not being used. That should give it enough ventilation, even if it is used for heavy loads (e.g., a coffee maker) for short periods.

With the cushion in place it should be OK for light loads like an LCD TV.

SAJOHNSON - That is already my plan, only to put that cushion down when being used (which is rare). FYI - original incident occured when there not a single load on Magnum. Other than A/C running, which no one has been able to figure out how that is even related to Magnum load. MOe later. Thanks.

[wachuko]

Originally Posted by sajohnson

My unsolicited, non-professional advice would be to remove that cushion from on top of the inverter (or prop it up) when the seat is not being used. That should give it enough ventilation, even if it is used for heavy loads (e.g., a coffee maker) for short periods...

No kidding... this is how mine has been since reading Alex AVI first post...

I will check the points mentioned on that page 34. Thank you.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by sajohnson

.....I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Magnum would not approve...

... if it really overheats it will simply shut down until it cools off. ... if it's putting out close to its rated 1,000W for any length of time, it's gonna get pretty toasty under that seat.....

Expounding on these ^^ thoughts, where's the friggin' vent in Wachuko's photo?! The device to promote air circulation?

Let me give you another data point, not a Magnum but on the topic of inverters generally:

2,000 watt Xantrex, DIY system, see that grate at the floor level just left of photo center? That's the ventilation screen I built for it. I thought I was being all careful 'n' conscientious making this generously-sized screen out of perf'd aluminum, and guess what? It's not enough. That little sucker gets so hot at times that it shuts its own a** down. My vent alone is insufficient for that application. We need to yank off that protective cabinetry cover when we use it, and we plan to retrofit a small fan to help keep it cooler in there.

[wachuko]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Expounding on these ^^ thoughts, where's the friggin' vent in Wachuko's photo?! The device to promote air circulation

I know, right!!??



I am searching for high efficiency, low power consumption fans... want to use one or two for the fridge and one for the inverter area (along with a vent). I want to get some air flow in these areas but without adding too much noise or having a big power drain...

[Pahaska]

Originally Posted by wachuko

No kidding... this is how mine has been since reading Alex AVI first post...

I would put 3 or 4 louvered 2" round vents nicely spaced at the bottom of the door under the jump seat to allow some air flow up from near floor level. Maybe a vent or two at the bottom on the end facing the couch.

I use a 2" hole saw and the vents tap in securely without the need for fasteners. Just 2 2-inch vents, one top and one bottom, solved my heat problem with my circuit breakers.