Electrical burning, heavy smoke w/ 3yr old grandson sleeping in AI

[gklott]

Originally Posted by Alex AVI

I agree, if this can happen to a brand new 3 month old unit, everyone can be susceptible. ... Even the source of the smoke was hard to pinpoint, mainly because the Magnum fan was actively pushing air all over.
PS: The failure was greatly accelerated by having Magnum inverter/converter/charger fully operational (not Standby) and A/C running full blast, either from shore power or generator.

Originally Posted by Alex AVI

INTERBLOG - Thanks much. It definitely smelled of Printed Ckt Board burning. Having been around them since early 70's, you just know the smell.

I recently had the same "smoke" generator and PCB smell incident from my 24 month + 6 days old Magnum MMS-1012 charger/inverter. Luckily, I was sitting right next to it when it smoked, and I know exactly where the failure occurred. See this post for the details:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...ml#post2096260

Recommend reporting details to your local fire department, National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), and Underwriters Laboratory (UL). Magnum RV products are listed under UL/cUL 458, Standard for Power Converters/Inverters and Power Converter/Inverter Systems for Land Vehicles and Marine Crafts.

These safety bodies really need to know your details.

73/gus
Dr. Gus Lott. P.E.

[Boom23]

The plot thickens...

Airstream and Magnum NEED to correct this problem for their customers before something worse happens.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by gklott

Recommend reporting details to your local fire department, National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), and Underwriters Laboratory (UL). Magnum RV products are listed under UL/cUL 458, Standard for Power Converters/Inverters and Power Converter/Inverter Systems for Land Vehicles and Marine Crafts.

These safety bodies really need to know your details.

GKLOTT - excellent advice. A friend in the legal field who also owns rv's did mention UL. But you are the 1st to mention local FD and NFPA. It makes sense. I do plan to report, along with other recommendations (i.e. NHTSA)

Originally Posted by Boom23

The plot thickens...

Airstream and Magnum NEED to correct this problem for their customers before something worse happens.

Currently in open dialog with Airstream. No one has hung up on the other yet I am encouraged that response is still positive. But so far, have not gotten to dialog with BOTH Airstream & Magnum at same time. Pushing for it. I feel it's best & easiest way to sort things out. Will see if I have to approach each individually.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by HUSK N TUSK

Threatening court action is going to make the lowly call-center employee retreat and NOT be able to help you, as you've been finding out. Once you choose to threaten legal action, consider all your other previous options essentially moot. You've purposely introduced yourself to another level of "problem" in the retail world that has its own set of hidden rules set in stone. But, some people like it there. Have fun.

HUSK N TUSK,

In addition to the above, you wrote, quote:

"Some people like drama and thrive on it...such as suing over a fridge.

Whatever floats your boat...or burns your van lol!"

You may not have this intent, but your posts come across as flippant.

You seem to have made the assumption that InterBlog -- and perhaps Alex -- wake up every day looking for companies to sue.

From what I can tell InterBlog has done her best to deal in good faith with Sears and they have blown her off.

While there certainly are people who thrive on drama, I do not get the impression InterBlog is one of them.

At some point one has to say, "No more mister nice guy". It is sad that customer service has deteriorated as much as it has. Unfortunately, some retailers; car dealers; RV dealers, etc, require the threat of a lawsuit to be prodded to do the right thing.

I doubt InterBlog takes any pleasure in what she has had to go through.

Your comments would be appropriate for someone whose first reaction out of the gate was to contact an attorney -- rather than trying to work things out with the mfr or retailer/dealer. That is not the case here.

[TheCabin]

This might be of interest. A Safety Recall Report from the end of last year:


https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...7V704-4137.PDF

[wachuko]

That is spot on. Thank you TheCabin!

[Zil]

I for one am very interested in the outcome of Alex 's magnum investigation. I hope this thread doesn't get hijacked. Or else I may sue someone.

[Mansderm161]

I could not open that recall link

[Mansderm161]

I am very interested in outcome too. I'll be at JC in July and have mine checked out. I had an issue in winter when using one of the outlets. I'm afraid to plug anything in until it's checked out. And he also had issue with smoke alarm and that should have never happened.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by gklott

I recently had the same "smoke" generator and PCB smell incident from my 24 month + 6 days old Magnum MMS-1012 charger/inverter. Luckily, I was sitting right next to it when it smoked, and I know exactly where the failure occurred. See this post for the details:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...ml#post2096260...

SUPERB post and SUPERB cross-post.

The only thing I'd recommend for all posters is not referencing credentials such as an engineering license in this kind of context. It could be interpreted as a liability even though this is a strictly informal exchange. My husband and I are both licensed in our respective STEM fields, but everything we say in this forum consists of personal opinions uttered in the capacity of private individuals tinkering as DIYers. No warranties expressed or implied, and nothing that could be interpreted as professional advice. There are plenty of engineers and scientists on this forum. We know who they are.

I am hoping that someone posts pics of the interior of one of these failed Magnums so that we can see exactly what happened. A picture tells a thousand words.

When our Parallax multi-stage electrical converter smoked out (thread), I was unable to open it and take pics as I wished. It was still under warranty and breaking the seal would have given Parallax the excuse it needed to NOT kick us a replacement $200 unit (which they did). Fortunately in that case they were willing to tell me verbally what the problem was (although I still don't have a pic) - a burned out circuit trace.

[Titus]

Any of you understand this recall report well enough to speculate on how they modified the wiring to ensure 'that the inverters DC output remains connected to the conversion batteries during all modes of operation'? I wonder if this 'simply a wiring change' information is available through NHTSA. It sounds like this somehow makes things better (eliminates ripple current) when all the Magnum is doing at the time is passing through the shore or generator power. This report will certainly gives good fodder for a talk with Airstream and Magnum. In my past life of doing emissions defect reports to the US EPA we had to describe the fix in great detail, but that information could (sometimes) be claimed as CBI (Confidential Business Information).

I would like to understand which of the following usages can cause the ripple current problem:
1) We leave the battery disconnect on when parked in the driveway and rely on solar to keep the batteries charged - though there is essentially no load on the batteries. Magnum is totally out of the picture - I think - so no ripple current problem???

2) We plug into AC and turn on the fridge and load food a day before the trip.
a) As I understand it, the fridge gives preferential power to AC (if present) then converts this AC to DC to run the compressor. Could this AC to the fridge cause ripple current?

b) If we unplug the fridge from AC (which some have suggested doing in other threads) then the fridge is running off the batteries and not through the inverter. All the Magnum does is charge the batteries that are being drawn down by the fridge. Can Magnum charging cause ripple current?

3) On a trip we might plug into shore power once or twice a week. Is there a ripple current problem if the Magnum is simply charging the batteries? (I think this is the same scenario as 2)b) above).

4) When plugged into shore power we use the electric water heater. Can the resistance heating rod of the water heater cause ripple current?

5) Can the ripple current problem be caused in the inverter mode - such as using the inverter to run the TV when not plugged into shore power?

6) We run the generator probably once a day on average, but only long enough to heat something in the microwave. Could the microwave sage create ripple current problem.

7) other scenarios that I have not though of?

[wachuko]

Originally Posted by Mansderm161

I could not open that recall link

Let me know if this one works... I placed it in a shared folder in dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/home/AI-RV?p...7V704-4137.PDF

[Mansderm161]

Thanks got it.

[Boom23]

FYI. This is from Magnum tech support regarding the problem and the recall posted in this thread:

"The issue is not with our inverter but with some connections made on the dc side during installation. If proper maintenance is performed on the battery cables to and from our inverter to the dc loads there should be no problems. All battery cables should come with a fuse that will blow if there is a short or overcurrent causing thermal runaway installed from the manufactuer.

Crestline coach and Airstream do not wire the systems the same. Make sure the batteries are always connected when ac is applied to the coach. (shore or generator) You would not want to have shore power to coach with an open dc circuit that could cause ac ripple inside the inverter. No one should ever be plugged into shore with the battery cables off the inverter or have a battery switch open between house bank with shore power applied to input of inverter. If you need to work on batteries do not have the coach plugged into shore until batteries are connected to inverter. The battery B+ cable will have a fuse inline so that if there is a short on the battery side it will trip before the cables get too hot and cause thermal runaway. We have been making these units for 12+ years and never had any fire related problems because of overlapping protection inside unit and installation protection on the dc and ac side with proper breaker or fuse sizing."

So, I am not sure what to believe anymore regarding the inverter problem. Maybe Alex will have more information soon.

[Titus]

Thanks Boom, Guess that none of my scenarios are related to the recall issue, and the recall is unrelated to AVI's problem

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Boom23

FYI. This is from Magnum tech support regarding the problem and the recall posted in this thread:

So, I am not sure what to believe anymore regarding the inverter problem. Maybe Alex will have more information soon.

And so the wheels are turning (albeit a bit slow in my opinion). But nevertheless, some update:

1. Dealer has done as much testing with as much load and all look ok for now. I will pick up my coach tomorrow.

2. I have different reactive-type systems that JC and I agreed I can implement myself as a counter-measure (with some help from them). Will elaborate on this in due time, when I get them done myself.

3.The proactive measures I am requesting is the area that I can see us getting bogged down. Have sent them an email highlighting the discrepancies I find related to installation requirements by Magnum vs. actual installation by Airstream (all of these items that have been brought up before by many here - temperature, enclosure, airflow, materials, venting, wiring, etc.)

4. Dealer states Magnum has been overnighted to JC so analysis can start asap, and from all indications Magnum is already in the loop. Though I have not personally spoken with Magnum; one of my 'asks' is a conference call with everyone all on the line (AS, Magnum, dealer, myself).

5. My personal take while awaiting info from AS & Magnum.

- I will be removing that jumpseat completely. My queen bed will now be a 2/3 queen.
- Will expand electrical compartment/cabinetry vertically & horizontally. The goal is to achieve the 59 cfm airflow or more.
- Add active venting, multiple fans, may vent directly outside if feasible, though hate putting another hole on bodywork.
- Harden the enclosure a bit more by lining the interior panels with materials that can buy extra time in case of fire.
- Eliminating all the combustible materials like wood and seat foam around it will go a long ways towards that goal.

More to come . . .

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Titus

Any of you understand this recall report well enough to speculate on how they modified the wiring to ensure 'that the inverters DC output remains connected to the conversion batteries during all modes of operation'? I wonder if this 'simply a wiring change' information is available through NHTSA. It sounds like this somehow makes things better (eliminates ripple current) when all the Magnum is doing at the time is passing through the shore or generator power. This report will certainly gives good fodder for a talk with Airstream and Magnum. In my past life of doing emissions defect reports to the US EPA we had to describe the fix in great detail, but that information could (sometimes) be claimed as CBI (Confidential Business Information).

I would like to understand which of the following usages can cause the ripple current problem:
1) We leave the battery disconnect on when parked in the driveway and rely on solar to keep the batteries charged - though there is essentially no load on the batteries. Magnum is totally out of the picture - I think - so no ripple current problem???

2) We plug into AC and turn on the fridge and load food a day before the trip.
a) As I understand it, the fridge gives preferential power to AC (if present) then converts this AC to DC to run the compressor. Could this AC to the fridge cause ripple current?

b) If we unplug the fridge from AC (which some have suggested doing in other threads) then the fridge is running off the batteries and not through the inverter. All the Magnum does is charge the batteries that are being drawn down by the fridge. Can Magnum charging cause ripple current?

3) On a trip we might plug into shore power once or twice a week. Is there a ripple current problem if the Magnum is simply charging the batteries? (I think this is the same scenario as 2)b) above).

4) When plugged into shore power we use the electric water heater. Can the resistance heating rod of the water heater cause ripple current?

5) Can the ripple current problem be caused in the inverter mode - such as using the inverter to run the TV when not plugged into shore power?

6) We run the generator probably once a day on average, but only long enough to heat something in the microwave. Could the microwave sage create ripple current problem.

7) other scenarios that I have not though of?

Titus - you are on to something in you post above, but not for the reasons you have stated. I'm about to make a longer post that will explain the connection between the information the the Safety Recall Report and the way Airstream has wired their Magnum Inverters. I'll post it after I proof read the text I've been working on.

[sajohnson]

The problem outlined in the NHTSA report is interesting.

This is a key quote:

"No components are changed in this remedy. This is simply a wiring
change that ensures the inverter remains connected to the conversion
batteries during all modes of operation."

According to the AI schematic ini the manual, it appears as though it is possible to disconnect the coach batteries from the inverter via the disconnect switch. See 9-17:
https://www.airstream.com/wp-content...ers-Manual.pdf

I do not own an AI, and I am not an AS tech, but it appears to me as though when the fridge is operating the 1012 inverter may be disconnected from the batteries via that switch.

See attached screen grab of schematic.

If I am reading the NHTSA report correctly, the 1012 needs to have the coach batteries connected at all times to filter AC ripple.

Seems like AS may have quite a bit of re-wiring to do.

[Pahaska]

Originally, the coach batteries were always connected, even when the main disconnect was in the power-off position. This allowed the Magnum to poll the output AC bus and turn on the inverter if it detected something was turned on, such as a TV. That could run the batteries down even when the disconnect switch was thrown.

Airstream came out with the ill-thought SB-164 fix which was a solenoid that only connected the battery positive when the main disconnect switch was in the power-on position. This fix was on my 2014.5 when I bought it used, until I replaced the solenoid with a heavy-duty manual battery switch.

The SB-164 solenoid was replaced by a second motorized switch to disconnect battery positive to the Magnum when the main disconnect switch was in the power-on position.

Both of the above "fixes" allow the Magnum to be disconnected from the batteries with the coach plugged in to external power or with the generator running.

[Boxster1971]

Thank you TheCabin for posting the Safety Recall Report. I think it is very relevant to the Magnum MMS 1012 inverter problem we are discussing. Titus and Boom23 comments are really close to the issue. I was busy today and could get this put together until now.

Alex I recommend you share this post and the one above by Boom23, plus the Safety recall with Airstream.

Consider key statements in the safety recall report
Description of the Cause:
Crestline Coach Ltd. has worked closely with the manufacturer of the inverter, Magnum Energy Inc., and has determined that the Magnum 1000W Model MMS1012 inverter is sensitive to AC ripple voltage which is present in various chassis electrical systems and customer electrical equipment loads. We have determined that the users of the vehicle can place the vehicle into an operational mode that disconnects the inverter from the conversion batteries while the inverter is functioning, exposing the inverter to excess AC ripple current. This exposure could result in an internal failure of the inverter that could lead to an overheating condition and, if undetected, possible fire.

Description of Remedy Program:
Crestline will issue a service bulletin to advise maintenance personnel on how to prevent creating this condition during maintenance. In addition, Crestline has identified a minor wiring change to the vehicle’s DC electrical system that would prevent the users from inadvertently placing the vehicle in the operational mode that creates this condition. This is accomplished by ensuring that the inverter’s DC output remains connected to the conversion batteries during all modes of operation.

Consider Airstream installations since about 2015
In November 2015 Airstream distributed the infamous SB-164 (Service Bulletin Number 164) using a solenoid to limit the undesired parasitic battery depletion caused by the inverter. We have discussed this less than stellar solution many times on this forum. Then in 2017 Airstream dropped the SB-164 solenoid solution for a much better second manual disconnect switch that removes the 12VDC batteries from the Magnum Inverter input.

With both SB-164 Solenoid and the manual disconnect Airstream has inadvertently created the potential condition to damage the Magnum MMS1012 inverter just as Crestline Coach discovered and reported to NHTSA that created the Part 573 Safety Recall Report 17V-704.

If any Airstream Interstate owner plugs their coach into shore power with the inverter disconnected from the batteries it can cause the same excess AC ripple current that could result in an internal failure of the inverter as reported by Crestline Coach and Magnum Energy.

I could find no caution notes in the 2015 to 2018 Interstate owners manuals that alert the user to this potential damaging condition that can easily happen. I also looked at the owner’s manual for the Magnum MMS1012 and could find no caution about leaving 120VAC power connected to the inverter when disconnecting the batteries as would be done in an inverter reset. However I did find a caution in the manual for my MM2000 inverter, it says:
"CAUTION: If AC is connected while performing an inverter reset, damage may occur."

Magnum knows their inverter can be damaged when AC is connected and the batteries are disconnected.

Consider my own observation
I connected this situation after reading the NHTSA Safety Recall Report, realizing how Airstream wires the inverter and recalling my own strange one time observation on my 2103 Interstate. For background my Interstate is modified with a manual disconnect switch and Magnum MS2000 inverter that I installed myself. Last year I was working on a minor wiring change and happened to turn off the manual battery disconnect while plugged into external 120VAC power. The inverter then went into a strange cycling mode and I immediately unplugged the external power. The way my manual disconnect is wired when the switch is off the 12VDC load panel remains connected to the Magnum inverter 12VDC terminals. This wiring is something I don’t recommend and plan to change soon.

Bottom Line: Disconnecting the batteries from the inverter while applying 120VAC power to the Magnum inverter will damage it. This would not likely happen on generator power as you need the batteries connected to start the generator. But this can easily happen inadvertently by plugging into external power with the batteries disconnected.

I hope this helps.