Smallest SUV with towing capacity

[BayouBiker]

I think an X5 would be a good match. I reread my previous post and noted that I specifically called out the Q5 that the OP owns but made no reference to a BMW that the OP does not currently own, but perhaps I misread his intent, and if so, my bad.

[Halford1]

2016 Audi Q5 Specs, Towing Capacity, Payload Capacity ...
https://www.cars.com/research/audi-q5-2016/specs
Towing capacity. 4,400 lbs. Compression ratio. 9.60 to 1. Turning radius. 19.0'. Interior cargo volume seats folded. 57.3 cu.ft. Engine torque.

A TV with 4,400 lbs tow max can tow 5,000 lbs? A sure thing to take the Q5 for a transmission and engine replacement. Sorry, I cannot be an enabler to agree with those with LOW tow max to tow HIGHER tow weight. I only enable those who would follow manufacturer's handbook manual.

[charging7]

We have a 23' International Serenity and really enjoy towing this with our 2014 Porsche Cayenne S. We were unsure if it was up to the task but many mIles later, we're believers in the Porsche as a competent TV and highly recommend.

Originally Posted by Imdakine1

I’m a total newbie and so I apologize in advance for my “stupid questions” as I feel like I wasted my team studying coach RVs to figure out that lots likely don’t accommodate a car seat and we have a toddler! Im a bit bummed as I feel like I’m starting my research over after doing extensive RV coach research and I’m feeling a bit burnt out.

We now are likely looking at 22’ or 23’. My daughter has a medical device that needs to run 8-9 hours (each night) so we need a trailer that does this... I also need a different medical device but I won’t use it for the few days we are traveling if the AS wont accommodate it as my daughter’s medical device is priority.

Towing

Our current 2014 Audi Q5 TDI has a towing capacity of 4,400 so I was told we could tow 3,000?

A bit confused on why we should assume 80% of the 4,400?

Tow Vehicle

We are looking for the smallest SUV that could tow the right AS likely again 22’ or 23’ as long as it meets our health needs.

Based on size we are considering CPO BMW X5 (6,603lb for 2019 or 5,952 2018 model) or Mercedes Benz GLE 7,200 for 4matic)

The 2019 BMW X5 (194.3 length) and 2018 Mercedes Benz GLE (189.1 length)

We know that Q7 can tow (7,700lbs) but is longer compared to the other SUVs (199.6 length)

Advice

I would be interested in knowing what other SUVs we should consider and does the 6,603 - 7,200 lbs towing sound good enough for the 22’ or 23 ft AS?

Thanks for your advice and opinions!

[Imdakine1]

I’m back! Sorry everyone, I got tied up with work and family.

I’m leaning to not use the Audi Q5 TDI as someone new with towing but am heavily leaning toward a 2018 Mercedes GLE 350 4 Matic or. 2019 Mercedes 400 4 Matic. I heard these are 7,200 towing capacity not that this matters the most as I’ve been reviewing all the posts here which I truly appreciate!

We are likely going to get the 2021 Flying Cloud 23’ FB. I was going to have the AS factory solar panel installed but am a bit confused on if this would be a good choice or not as I heard it has upgraded batteries but they aren’t lithium?

Any thoughts and advice for the AS Flying Cloud 23’ FB and setup for the tow vehicle.

Please advice on brake controller? Sorry if I don’t have the right name...(?) also info on solar panels 90watt with 2agm batteries. Im confused on these AGM batteries vs lithium?

QUOTE=GetawA-S;2413081]Has anyone else noticed that OP has gone AWOL? From other posts, it appears that Imdakine1 really likes his Q5. The most heated parts of this thread are based heavily on assumptions about his situation.
My wife used to tell her Econ students “If it sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is!” This applies to towing at the limit, and Imdakine1 sounded like he was answering his own question.
On the other hand, maybe he started the thread for its entertainment value...[/QUOTE]

[Imdakine1]

I’ve heard so many good things about the Cayenne and have been considering it although I’m a bit worried about those that are out of warranty now... was looking at CPO ones but they are a pretty penny still.

My 2014 Q5 TDI has been amazing, the diesel scandal was disappointing but now real issue with the Audi at all. Any issues or concerns with your 2014 Cayenne?

Also likely no Apple airplay support on that year as my Audi Q5 doesn’t have that stuff for sure etc... While not necessary it’s a nice addition to a tow vehicle etc...

Would love to hear your overall experience, specs for 2014 cayenne related to working and weight if you AS etc...

Did you add anything for towing brake controller, sway bar (?) etc...

Thanks in advance!

Originally Posted by charging7

We have a 23' International Serenity and really enjoy towing this with our 2014 Porsche Cayenne S. We were unsure if it was up to the task but many mIles later, we're believers in the Porsche as a competent TV and highly recommend.

[Imdakine1]

Yes this is same specs for my 2014 and am not likely comfortable enough as a new tow person to use it. I’ll likely keep the Q5 and get another vehicle.

Originally Posted by Halford1

2016 Audi Q5 Specs, Towing Capacity, Payload Capacity ...
https://www.cars.com/research/audi-q5-2016/specs
Towing capacity. 4,400 lbs. Compression ratio. 9.60 to 1. Turning radius. 19.0'. Interior cargo volume seats folded. 57.3 cu.ft. Engine torque.

A TV with 4,400 lbs tow max can tow 5,000 lbs? A sure thing to take the Q5 for a transmission and engine replacement. Sorry, I cannot be an enabler to agree with those with LOW tow max to tow HIGHER tow weight. I only enable those who would follow manufacturer's handbook manual.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Imdakine1

I’m back! Sorry everyone, I got tied up with work and family.

I’m leaning to not use the Audi Q5 TDI as someone new with towing but am heavily leaning toward a 2018 Mercedes GLE 350 4 Matic or. 2019 Mercedes 400 4 Matic. I heard these are 7,200 towing capacity not that this matters the most as I’ve been reviewing all the posts here which I truly appreciate!

We are likely going to get the 2021 Flying Cloud 23’ FB. I was going to have the AS factory solar panel installed but am a bit confused on if this would be a good choice or not as I heard it has upgraded batteries but they aren’t lithium?

Any thoughts and advice for the AS Flying Cloud 23’ FB and setup for the tow vehicle.

Please advice on brake controller? Sorry if I don’t have the right name...(?) also info on solar panels 90watt with 2agm batteries. Im confused on these AGM batteries vs lithium?

Yeah, the Q5 is not a good choice, the MB are a better match, though you will have to take some modest steps to reduce oversteer risk. The Cayenne is an excellent choice.

Airstream just this year began offering a Lithium battery option. I don't know any details about the package, who installs it or the price point vs. having a competent aftermarket installation done. My inclination would be to find someone with a good reputation and go aftermarket for a lithium project.

AGM batteries are generally recommended for solar systems over wet cells because don't vent hydrogen and thus do not lose water to any degree as standard wet cells do especially with the cyclic nature of solar charging.

Lithium batteries are lite and have much more energy storage for the size and weight. They can be charged faster and discharged more fully without damage. They are very easily damaged in cold weather charging if the internal battery temperature falls below freezing. They must be charged very very slowly at low temperatures so most will install them inside the trailer shell to avoid the issue while the trailer is in use.

Two 90 watt panels is enough if you don't require the furnace too much. The blower uses a fair amount of power so 180 watts won't keep up. Otherwise it is fine to keep up with the basic load. Buy and bring a 2200 W inverter generator or larger in case the sun won't cooperate or you need some A/C relief from the heat.

There are many good brake controllers on the market. The Bluetooth wireless ones are easiest since they just plug into the 7 pin hitch plug between the vehicle and trailer and you use an app on your phone to adjust it. Many good in or under dash wired models are also available, which are conveniently mounted, accessible, and ready for use in an emergency for manual brake application whereas your phone may not be easy to reach or the app may not be ready to use. Mine is from the OEM so I don't have enough experience with the aftermarket to recommend one over another.

[BayouBiker]

Returning to Tom T's truck vs. SUV comparisons, to be relevant, the numbers comparisons for towing need to be done while towing and when one does so, leaving out the exotic models because we can play the same horsepower game with trucks by choosing carefully. In any case the hp to weight rate ratios and other comparisons come into line when one compares apples to apples as Ginophiles indicates. Sure the SUVs will be more comfortable and provide a gentler and more confident ride, but they will not be nearly as capable of handling the trailers in emergencies as they will have more difficulty with both sway (dynamic stability) and oversteer (static stability) and this is inherent with the vehicle geometry and design.

On braking distance, again the SUVs will stop much faster without a trailer, but towing a loaded trailer, competent trucks with brakes sized for towing and good programming, will compete with and exceed stopping performance of all but the exotic SUVs. If you want an explanation of why this is, ask.

This is not to take away from the mid sized SUVs being considered in this thread. They are the better choice for trailers up to 23' when space considerations are important and when large cargo capacity is not required.

[Tom_T]

Actually Brian -

The Cayenne & other Sport SUVs have bigger brakes & more swept area for their TV weight, & much stiffer & better controlled suspensions with lower CG - so they've been proven by everyone towing with Cayennes, GLE/ML, X5, Land Rover, etc. that they're as or more capable & stable with less sway in emergency maneuvers.

I do agree that one must compare apples-to-apples for Trucks & SUVs/ & CUVs for engine sizes & types (gas v diesel), suspension & brake & electronic controls/nannies/etc., & other options & trims. This is also true for price & other options - between the trucks which you'd need to option up to equal equipment/options vs. that included as "standard" in most of the Premium SUVs/CUVs (or at their respective trim levels).

What I found in comparing V8 gas powered Cayenne S & 1/2 ton Crew-Cab Trucks - was that for a new or recent used (3-5 years) pick-up, that you'd end up with top trim plus some options - in order to equal the "standard" Cayenne S. So apples-to-apples a F150, Chevy/GMC 1500 or RAM 1500 was as much or more cost - aside from the enclosed SUV vs. truck bed differences.

I disagree that any SUV/CUV is any less capable, than a comparable sized 1/2 ton pick-up - when both are towing within ALL of their respective towing limits. And the trucks will generally weigh more, so diluting their relative power-to-weight ratios. I've towed with both SUV, 1/2 ton & even with 3/4 ton trucks - so I'm speaking from hands-on experience.

You truck folks forget that the Airstreams under about 27-28' were designed to be CAR towed - without the need for trucks, & this push for trucks is a recent phenomenon driven by the higher profit margins & exemptions from CAFE mpg requirements on the trucks - driven by the manufacturers.

I choose to go by facts & on-the-road towing experience, & not to drink the koolaid.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on trucks or SUVs - but either will make appropriate & safe TVs, & should be decided by the owner's needs, preferences & user profile - not by this sort of chatter.

Tom
///////

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Returning to Tom T's truck vs. SUV comparisons, to be relevant, the numbers comparisons for towing need to be done while towing and when one does so, leaving out the exotic models because we can play the same horsepower game with trucks by choosing carefully. In any case the hp to weight rate ratios and other comparisons come into line when one compares apples to apples as Ginophiles indicates. Sure the SUVs will be more comfortable and provide a gentler and more confident ride, but they will not be nearly as capable of handling the trailers in emergencies as they will have more difficulty with both sway (dynamic stability) and oversteer (static stability) and this is inherent with the vehicle geometry and design.

On braking distance, again the SUVs will stop much faster without a trailer, but towing a loaded trailer, competent trucks with brakes sized for towing and good programming, will compete with and exceed stopping performance of all but the exotic SUVs. If you want an explanation of why this is, ask.

This is not to take away from the mid sized SUVs being considered in this thread. They are the better choice for trailers up to 23' when space considerations are important and when large cargo capacity is not required.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

Actually Brian -

The Cayenne & other Sport SUVs have bigger brakes & more swept area for their TV weight, & much stiffer & better controlled suspensions with lower CG - so they've been proven by everyone towing with Cayennes, GLE/ML, X5, Land Rover, etc. that they're as or more capable & stable with less sway in emergency maneuvers.

The large disc and pad area are primarily for heat dissipation for repeated and sustained use. For a single stop, they only need to be large enough to generate more stopping force than the tire and road surface can handle and yet remain below pad material vapor point.

People towing with the European SUVs don't generally test for sway (dynamic) and oversteer (static) stability and therefore have no idea if their combination is stable or not for the full range of expected road conditions. I am not disputing capability during normal driving conditions nor for smaller trailers under 23'. Above 23' one must make significant adaptations to trailer load distribution and then compensate with significant additional sway control measures to maintain dynamic stability and even then sway risk is elevated. The determinates for inherent stability are largely geometry and mass related so there is not much that can be done to mid-sized SUVs to overcome these handicaps.

... snip ...

What I found in comparing V8 gas powered Cayenne S & 1/2 ton Crew-Cab Trucks - was that for a new or recent used (3-5 years) pick-up, that you'd end up with top trim plus some options - in order to equal the "standard" Cayenne S. So apples-to-apples a F150, Chevy/GMC 1500 or RAM 1500 was as much or more cost - aside from the enclosed SUV vs. truck bed differences.

Most trim and creature comforts have little to do with towing capability, seems unreasonable to burden a truck with options simply because the competitor does not offer stripped down versions.

I disagree that any SUV/CUV is any less capable, than a comparable sized 1/2 ton pick-up - when both are towing within ALL of their respective towing limits. And the trucks will generally weigh more, so diluting their relative power-to-weight ratios. I've towed with both SUV, 1/2 ton & even with 3/4 ton trucks - so I'm speaking from hands-on experience.

I generally agree. A performance SUV towing say 5% under all its limits will tow much nicer than any truck towing 5% under its limits. When an performance SUV is in its element, its difficult to be bested. However even when under their limits, the range of road and weather conditions for which a performance SUV towing remains inherently stable will always be less than for a larger heavier truck designed for towing. This is just harsh brutal physics.

You truck folks forget that the Airstreams under about 27-28' were designed to be CAR towed - without the need for trucks, & this push for trucks is a recent phenomenon driven by the higher profit margins & exemptions from CAFE mpg requirements on the trucks - driven by the manufacturers.

Generally true at some point in the distant past. Modern 25+ foot Airstream trailers don't fit the car tow design parameters. Higher profits are due to high demand so it is a customer driven phenomenon.

I choose to go by facts & on-the-road towing experience, & not to drink the koolaid.

Mechanical and control systems folks like me prefer facts over koolaid too and the SUVs can't fool Newtonian Physics no matter how nice they feel under gentle road conditions. But once one exceeds critical points, things can change radically for the worse very quickly. A setup that is inherently stable will continue to respond to driver input, even if the basic characteristic is clumsy, while one that is crisp and refined will careen out of control if it is inherently unstable for the conditions.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on trucks or SUVs - but either will make appropriate & safe TVs, & should be decided by the owner's needs, preferences & user profile - not by this sort of chatter.

Tom
///////

Agree, except the final point. Most people don't understand or are unaware of the circumstances that determine safe, low risk towing so this chatter brings that awareness even if it requires one to change their beliefs about particular vehicles.

[Imdakine1]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

The large disc and pad area are primarily for heat dissipation for repeated and sustained use. For a single stop, they only need to be large enough to generate more stopping force than the tire and road surface can handle and yet remain below pad material vapor point.

People towing with the European SUVs don't generally test for sway (dynamic) and oversteer (static) stability and therefore have no idea if their combination is stable or not for the full range of expected road conditions. I am not disputing capability during normal driving conditions nor for smaller trailers under 23'. Above 23' one must make significant adaptations to trailer load distribution and then compensate with significant additional sway control measures to maintain dynamic stability and even then sway risk is elevated. The determinates for inherent stability are largely geometry and mass related so there is not much that can be done to mid-sized SUVs to overcome these handicaps.

Most trim and creature comforts have little to do with towing capability, seems unreasonable to burden a truck with options simply because the competitor does not offer stripped down versions.

I generally agree. A performance SUV towing say 5% under all its limits will tow much nicer than any truck towing 5% under its limits. When an performance SUV is in its element, its difficult to be bested. However even when under their limits, the range of road and weather conditions for which a performance SUV towing remains inherently stable will always be less than for a larger heavier truck designed for towing. This is just harsh brutal physics.

Generally true at some point in the distant past. Modern 25+ foot Airstream trailers don't fit the car tow design parameters. Higher profits are due to high demand so it is a customer driven phenomenon.



Mechanical and control systems folks like me prefer facts over koolaid too and the SUVs can't fool Newtonian Physics no matter how nice they feel under gentle road conditions. But once one exceeds critical points, things can change radically for the worse very quickly. A setup that is inherently stable will continue to respond to driver input, even if the basic characteristic is clumsy, while one that is crisp and refined will careen out of control if it is inherently unstable for the conditions.

Agree, except the final point. Most people don't understand or are unaware of the circumstances that determine safe, low risk towing so this chatter brings that awareness even if it requires one to change their beliefs about particular vehicles.

I want to thank you both for providing a newbie like me with a lot of information to take in and consider. Being new to towing is quite overwhelming and this forum has truly provided me a lot of insight that I know I couldn’t find on my own as easily. We are excited to likely be buying a 2021 Flying Cloud 23’. We think it’ll be a great AS that would fit our need as a family of 3 with our little one turning 3 in a week.

While we haven’t decided on the tow vehicle yet we know we won’t be using our 2014 Audi Q5 TDI although I love it and we will keep it we will consider a few other tow vehicles.

This post has also opened my eyes to a few other things that I’ll need to look into before our AS is delivered likely in late January!

I’m sure you will see my newbie questions!

[switz]

Our first Airstream was ordered sight unseen while out of the country. The 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI turbo diesel was driven from Phoenix to CanAm in London, Ontario, Canada to get the factory installed receiver reinforced for Hensley Arrow weight distribution and the Hensley “stinger” shortened and slightly bent to help with preloading the hitch. Towed the 2013 25FB International Serenity with full propane and fresh water tanks home from Los Angles to Phoenix. Had no issues with the climb out of Palm Springs, CA on I-10 as the posted speed for towing in California is 55 mph. After loading the trailer for campaign to about 6,900 pounds, the Mercedes was not pleased with the load so we acquired a 2012 Ram 2500HD Cummins for towing duties.

The 25FB was traded in on a 31’ Classic which received a ProPride hitch. I kept the Hensley Arrow hitch and Tekonsha Prodigy RF wireless brake control system.

We acquired a 2015 23D International Serenity for access to smaller RV parks and reused the Hensley Arrow and Tekonsha brake control system. We upgraded the 23D from stock 14” tires and wheels to 15” SenDel wheels and 15” Michelin tires. That upgrade elevated the23D to the same frame elevation of the 25FB so all the hitch settings were reused. We continued 55mph with the 2007 Mercedes towing the 23D that scaled 6,069 pounds with 929 pounds of tongue weight. We had no issues towing even in the mountains using the seven speed transmission. Descents in second at 35 mph on 6% slopes required no brake use, engine back pressure held the speed.

The third beginning appearance of the chronic engine issue of the Mercedes 3.0L V6 turbo diesel (a $3,500 repair every 75,000 miles and most Sprinters have this engine as well) caused the ML and my wife’s 2009 E320 CDI at 70,000 miles starting to shows signs of the repair issue to be sold.

So the 2012 Ram is now the tow vehicle for both trailers.

I suggest chatting with AndyThompson at CanAm about recommendations for non-truck tow vehicles for the 23FB trailer. Phone is 866-226-2678 and email is andy@canamrv.ca if that is easier.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by pteck

To be fair, you might notice the fetish-like desire for the biggest possible tow vehicle as well.

Yep. After a recent accident I want as much metal around me as I can get.

[slimjimkew]

https://www.canamrv.ca/blog/post/the...treamno-probs/