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Old 09-13-2013, 01:46 PM   #21
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My point was a diesel is not the only option. I have an Excursion but there are many other option available. The new F-150 Ecoboost would be what I would recommend if money were not an issue.

It is really hard to find anything that will tow 10,000lbs that gets more than 15 mpg empty including the 7.3L diesel.


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Old 09-13-2013, 02:01 PM   #22
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It is really hard to find anything that will tow 10,000lbs that gets more than 15 mpg empty including the 7.3L diesel.


Perry
Look at any of the new 3/4 or 1 ton trucks. Almost all of them will exceed 15 MPG but they are all well out of the 20K range. Most of your Ford and Dodge diesels can be made to get more than 15 MPG with a little work on them such as airbox, exhaust and tuners without any damage to the engine or drivetrain. You can easily expect 15-18 loaded and around 18-20 empty. They will all be rated over 10,000 pulling
capacity.
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Old 09-13-2013, 02:38 PM   #23
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We're looking to balance mpg and a towing capacity of 10k+ pounds (28' Safari) for a used vehicle in the $10 - 20k range. The vehicle will be our daily driver as well TV, hence wanting to get the best mpg possible. We will be hitting mountain passes, though not that frequently. Any suggestions of make, model, and year to look at?
As I see it you there are four sensible approaches:

1) Large SUVs, either the Chev Suburban 2500 or the Ford Excursion, from 2000-2006.

2) Most 3/4 ton pickup trucks from the same era, with a cab configuration that meets your needs

3) Recent 1/2 ton pickup trucks, though some people including me believe the manufacturers are now overstating the towing capacity

4) Large sedans using a specialized hitch from Can Am.


The 'burb or the Excursion are the choice if you need a 3rd row of seats or climate controlled cargo space. The pickups are fine without.

Nothing that can tow 10,000 pounds will get good mileage nor will it be much fun as a daily driver.

People will argue diesel all day but total cost of ownership including fuel, maintenance, and depreciation is no better, you pay for the mpg savings in increased up front costs and maintenance.
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:41 PM   #24
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
It is really hard to find anything that will tow 10,000lbs that gets more than 15 mpg empty including the 7.3L diesel.


Perry
I stayed out of the diesel vs gasser convo, but my 6.0 (tuned) gets 22mpg on the highway unloaded and 15 pulling my 78 Sov at 65mph.

That's much better than my 08 Expedition EL that got 18 and 9 respectively.
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:50 PM   #25
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I'm realizing that maximizing for mpg is a lost cause, there are not all that many tow options to begin with. Jammer, I think you nailed the options, and I'm debating between the 1/2 tons and the 3/4 tons. I don't trust a CanAm vehicle to ease me down mountain passes and don't need the extra seating of an SUV.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:22 PM   #26
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I would have rather had a truck but the Excursion was half the price of a pickup with the same drivetrain and same year. The wife and kiddy like the Excursion interior. I had a 92 Ford diesel crew cab long bed 4x4 and sold it for $3500 but it was going to cost me another $2000 min to keep running it. I needed something more reliable. If I was still single, I would have kept it as a farm truck. I probably would have also fixed all the problems.

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:18 PM   #27
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I do know this, a 7.3 if the antifreeze has not been maintained correctly you could spend major bucks when water jacket cavitation eats through a cylinder. A risky gamble in my book. My dollar is on a 5.9 Cummins pre 2007 or a gasser
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:26 PM   #28
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Yes there are alot of gottcha's with an old diesel. I could have spent $2000k on the old truck just to have something major like cavitation (the water jacket issue) or the transmission etc. If you get one new and keep it up they can last forever. If you get a lemon or abused lemon they are going to cost you tons.

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Old 09-14-2013, 02:48 PM   #29
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I do know this, a 7.3 if the antifreeze has not been maintained correctly you could spend major bucks when water jacket cavitation eats through a cylinder. A risky gamble in my book. My dollar is on a 5.9 Cummins pre 2007 or a gasser
Check ford TSB (technical service bullitens) the problem was on the early 7.3 made by international (pre turbo) not the 7.3 powerstrokes. The cavitation problems would erode the cylinder walls especially on the rear cylinders unless additive was used in the antifreeze. The later 7.3 didn't have the same issues but Ford recomends you still need to put the additive in the antifreeze.
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Old 09-14-2013, 05:02 PM   #30
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Hope you added a "Comments" column to your spreadsheet. LOL - I knew you would get a little feedback.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:17 AM   #31
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Great and timely information. I've been struggling with the TV question for three years. Renting F-350s and RAM 2500s, and borrowing a RAM from a friend this year. Returned to the islands from Colorado last night, and have been researching used trucks for the past two weeks. Looking at similar budget, say 12-15K. I need to tow the 27FB all through the Rockies and sometimes to Texas and back. I've been looking for a 94-03 F250 4x4, in any config shorter than the full crew cab/full bed thing. And with the 7.3 Powerstroke. Automatic trans. Tow package.

I'm having a hard time finding anything online that doesn't look totally beat to crap and has over 200,000 miles on it, in that price range. I understand about the 200k miles being no big deal in a well maintained engine, but how can you really know that for either gas or diesel, when you're going to be buying something that likely has been sold at auction and had several owners before you? It's a crap shoot. As for reaching 500,,000 miles, it's a good indication of engine design but practically? Would you want to be driving a vehicle that old? Honestly, I doubt I would put another 5K miles on it in any one year. Most years would be much less than that. I'm 62 years old. Do the math. In 20 years if I did this EVERY year, I'd put another 100K on it. Real life? I'd decide to dump it and buy something else when the used ecoboost prices come down.

What's really gotten my interest in this discussion so far is the relative maintenance and replacement costs for gas vs diesel. Lets say, it's worst case and you get a real lemon. What's the cost of dropping a new short block, or complete junkyard engine in, gas vs diesel? I say worst case, because if it was best case everything works out and whatever you bought is perfect, and the diesel vs gas thing is just rhetoric.

That's worse case, isn't it? I get the truck towed to a shop and tell them they got til next summer to swap out engines and send me the bill?

Another thing here catching my attention ( thank you very much) is that it sounds like it may be possible that a Ford 6.0 diesel would be a great choice if you can find a good one. This might be the time to consider lining up a couple potentials and hiring a mechanic for the day. Would be worth it, because the 6.0 Powerstrokes are fairly easy to find.. Much more so than the 7.3s You can get mo' truck for less money.

The Can Am option doesn't work for me. We get off the pavement sometimes. In fact, if AS ever comes out with an off-road version with more clearance and suspension we'd be interested.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:52 AM   #32
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Great and timely information. I've been struggling with the TV question for three years. Renting F-350s and RAM 2500s, and borrowing a RAM from a friend this year. Returned to the islands from Colorado last night, and have been researching used trucks for the past two weeks. Looking at similar budget, say 12-15K. I need to tow the 27FB all through the Rockies and sometimes to Texas and back. I've been looking for a 94-03 F250 4x4, in any config shorter than the full crew cab/full bed thing. And with the 7.3 Powerstroke. Automatic trans. Tow package.

I'm having a hard time finding anything online that doesn't look totally beat to crap and has over 200,000 miles on it, in that price range.
Spending an extra $5,000 would be money well spent.

Any truck that old will develop problems over time but for $20k you should be able to get something that is caught up on maintenance and that has body, upholstery, and glass in good condition.

Quote:
I understand about the 200k miles being no big deal in a well maintained engine, but how can you really know that for either gas or diesel, when you're going to be buying something that likely has been sold at auction and had several owners before you? It's a crap shoot. As for reaching 500,,000 miles, it's a good indication of engine design but practically? Would you want to be driving a vehicle that old?
Never mind the engine, it's the body, interior, front end, engine accessories, driveline, etc., you get the idea, that cost $$$$

Quote:
What's really gotten my interest in this discussion so far is the relative maintenance and replacement costs for gas vs diesel. Lets say, it's worst case and you get a real lemon. What's the cost of dropping a new short block, or complete junkyard engine in, gas vs diesel? I say worst case, because if it was best case everything works out and whatever you bought is perfect, and the diesel vs gas thing is just rhetoric.
For gassers you can usually buy a rebuilt short block and have it installed for around $3k-$4k if you don't replace anything else at the same time. Me, if I go through all that it will also have new water pump, alternator, power steering pump, hoses, starter, belt, idler, and engine management (water temp, o2, oil pressure, egr, etc) which can add another $1k.

With gassers it's pretty rare these days for there to be internal engine failures without warning and cumulative wear doesn't usually become a problem until beyond 200,000 miles. There are exceptions with various engines all having weak points somewhere and with engines that have been run without oil at some point in the past being susceptible to failure. Usually a compression check and an oil analysis will catch this sort of stuff in advance.

The thing with diesels is that there are other more common expensive points of failure which vary from one engine to the next, intercoolers, turbos, injection pumps, oil coolers, etc., and in many cases these components can fail without much warning.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:55 AM   #33
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Great and timely information. I've been struggling with the TV question for three years. Renting F-350s and RAM 2500s, and borrowing a RAM from a friend this year. Returned to the islands from Colorado last night, and have been researching used trucks for the past two weeks. Looking at similar budget, say 12-15K. I need to tow the 27FB all through the Rockies and sometimes to Texas and back. I've been looking for a 94-03 F250 4x4, in any config shorter than the full crew cab/full bed thing. And with the 7.3 Powerstroke. Automatic trans. Tow package.

I'm having a hard time finding anything online that doesn't look totally beat to crap and has over 200,000 miles on it, in that price range. I understand about the 200k miles being no big deal in a well maintained engine, but how can you really know that for either gas or diesel, when you're going to be buying something that likely has been sold at auction and had several owners before you? It's a crap shoot. As for reaching 500,,000 miles, it's a good indication of engine design but practically? Would you want to be driving a vehicle that old? Honestly, I doubt I would put another 5K miles on it in any one year. Most years would be much less than that. I'm 62 years old. Do the math. In 20 years if I did this EVERY year, I'd put another 100K on it. Real life? I'd decide to dump it and buy something else when the used ecoboost prices come down.

What's really gotten my interest in this discussion so far is the relative maintenance and replacement costs for gas vs diesel. Lets say, it's worst case and you get a real lemon. What's the cost of dropping a new short block, or complete junkyard engine in, gas vs diesel? I say worst case, because if it was best case everything works out and whatever you bought is perfect, and the diesel vs gas thing is just rhetoric.

That's worse case, isn't it? I get the truck towed to a shop and tell them they got til next summer to swap out engines and send me the bill?

Another thing here catching my attention ( thank you very much) is that it sounds like it may be possible that a Ford 6.0 diesel would be a great choice if you can find a good one. This might be the time to consider lining up a couple potentials and hiring a mechanic for the day. Would be worth it, because the 6.0 Powerstrokes are fairly easy to find.. Much more so than the 7.3s You can get mo' truck for less money.

The Can Am option doesn't work for me. We get off the pavement sometimes. In fact, if AS ever comes out with an off-road version with more clearance and suspension we'd be interested.
To address the engine cost replacement cost on the 7.3 will be about $10,000 for a complete remanufactured 7.3 parts and labor turn key. I had to replace one a few years back and found a low milage take out from a 2001 truck and gave $3200.00 for it. I have put over 100 thousand miles on that used one and still going strong.Don't know cost on gas replacement. Stay away from 6.0 trucks unless you can find one that already has had egr delete, head gaskets replaced and new studs put in heads. If it hasn't been done you will end up doing it that is why you can find them cheap with only 80 thousand miles plus. If you really want a 6.0 truck the hot ticket is to find and early cummins diesel and swap it into the 6.0 trucks. They make all the adapters to do this swap then you WILL HAVE THE BEST ENGINE AND TRUCK COMBINATION OUT THERE. The 6.0 trucks don't have alot of other issues. Try to buy from an individual (less likely it came thru an auction)instead of dealers that way you can find all the history on the vehicle and if it is a one owner that is even better
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:22 PM   #34
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Thanks.

I'm also finding out that there are a few Excursions around with the 7.3, and prices are slightly less than the F- series. Plus, you can pretty much be sure that the rear of the Excursions has never been loaded up with anything too rough. The beds on some of these F-250s I'm seeing look like something out of Mad Max.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:15 PM   #35
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A Cummings in an Excursion would be a nice tow vehicle. The only thing I don't like about the Cummings is the noise. They sound like a train coming.

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Old 10-02-2013, 08:36 AM   #36
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I live on a small island between the Bahamas and Haiti. When I am in the US, I am staying in a hotel, with family, or in the Airstream. The chances of me putting a Dodge engine in a perfectly good Ford truck are something near zero.


You reckon the 5.9 Cummins is a better motor? Why?

I don't care about the noise. I'm half deaf anyhow. Diving, gunfire, and rock and roll music.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:54 AM   #37
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Because the Cummings is regarded as being the best motor and the Fords are regarded as the best trucks. This was in the first decade of this century at least.

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Old 10-02-2013, 09:25 AM   #38
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I live on a small island between the Bahamas and Haiti. When I am in the US, I am staying in a hotel, with family, or in the Airstream. The chances of me putting a Dodge engine in a perfectly good Ford truck are something near zero.


You reckon the 5.9 Cummins is a better motor? Why?

I don't care about the noise. I'm half deaf anyhow. Diving, gunfire, and rock and roll music.
If it is a 6.0 ford truck then it is not a perfectly good ford truck. The early cummins doesn't have all the electronic bs to run it like the newer engines. It is not dependent on oil pressure to fire the injectors doesn't have injector pump problems that the later engines have and it is basically all mechanical. Anybody that can work on a farm tractor can work on one of those, you don't need all the electronic equipment to diagnose problems. The ford truck body is the better built of the heavy duty trucks so you combine the two and you have an almost bullet proof truck. A cummins powered excursion would be awesome. If it had the 7.3 I wouldn't swap it but 6.0 definitly.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:37 PM   #39
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I'm only looking at 7.3's.

Considering all options, but have been a "Ford truck" guy since I was a kid. I once showed up at my uncles house in East Texas in a rented Chevy and my uncle asked me to park it out on the road. He didn't want the neighbors to think he had bought one.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:54 PM   #40
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If it is a 6.0 ford truck then it is not a perfectly good ford truck. If it had the 7.3 I wouldn't swap it but 6.0 definitly.
I wouldn't trade my 6.0 for either the 7.3 or the Cummins. For the record, there are tons of 6.0s out there that have their original EGR, their original oil coolers and over 200k. Mine's modified (EGR/Cat delete, exhaust, fuel spring, coolant filter, etc) but it's a 480hp, 22mpg getting, tow a mountain beast that I'd pay to have repaired if I blew it up.
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