Adios Airstream

[xrvr]

YES!!!!! Jim

[tpi]

As for Airstream's market share, I think that the funkiness is what attracted me to my Bambi in the first place. It might be interesting to see a new design but I'd be attracted to the old style myself anyway. I think of my Airstream as having soul and I like that! As much as I enjoyed my 2004 MINI it was not a vehicle with a lot of Soul. The original MINI's however had lots! There is no question an Airstream is not for everybody. Cost to own and some of the challenges of getting the trailer sorted put them out of the reach of many. I am sure that Airstream is very aware of the challenges associated with its products. They gave every indication (at the feedback forum at Alumapalooza) that they are constantly trying to address what owners see as shortfalls. They sounded very credible to me!
Remember too that many of have very good experiences with our purchases!
Mt critiques are in the nit picking category.

Bruce, I'm by no means unhappy overall, but I think the flooring and the plastic roof items could be addressed by Airstream without altering the character of the trailer one bit. In my case I'm on my third skylight. I've seen disposable plastic cups with more UV resistance than the factory skylight. This should have been abundantly clear to Airstream as early as 2006, if not earlier. Their program to identify these problem areas is grossly inadequate.

As for the floor, this is 2012. At least offer a very rot resistant or rot proof floor as an option. Looking at the design of these trailers, how can these floors not get wet during their lifespan? Buying an Airstream I gratefully gave up wood walls and ceilings. Lets go all the way. Get it done Airstream!

These two areas would go a long ways to improving the owner experience. Disclose filiform corrosion as a nature of the beast, fix the plastics and the floors, and cut half the major complaints on this forum. Fix the dealers and cut another quarter.

[Bruce B]

Originally Posted by tpi

Bruce, I'm by no means unhappy overall, but I think the flooring and the plastic roof items could be addressed by Airstream without altering the character of the trailer one bit. In my case I'm on my third skylight. I've seen disposable plastic cups with more UV resistance than the factory skylight. This should have been abundantly clear to Airstream as early as 2006, if not earlier. Their program to identify these problem areas is grossly inadequate.

As for the floor, this is 2012. At least offer a very rot resistant or rot proof floor as an option. Looking at the design of these trailers, how can these floors not get wet during their lifespan? Buying an Airstream I gratefully gave up wood walls and ceilings. Lets go all the way. Get it done Airstream!

These two areas would go a long ways to improving the owner experience. Disclose filiform corrosion as a nature of the beast, fix the plastics and the floors, and cut half the major complaints on this forum. Fix the dealers and cut another quarter.

One of the suggestions I made at the owner feedback session was that Airstream provide a venue for owners to make suggestions about the product directly.

I believe that the current flooring is pretty good. It is a marine grade plywood at least....

I love our Airstream!

Bruce

[tpi]

It probably is good plywood. But look at post after post of photos of rotten floors in late model trailers with this plywood. I've seen some here in southern CA where we have dry climate. The floor is literally black with rot. I'm very careful about watching mine for first signs of leaks (and I wish I didn't have to be so careful). But not everybody can be as thorough, with remote storage, busy lives etc. The product needs to be suitable for typical use. Its definitely a weak point.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

Gene,
A couple of quick comments before I go back to work...
I know that in Motorcycle/Scooter world, the boating world and in the Automotive world many dealers use GE Finance to floor-plan their inventory. In early 2009 GE tightened up the money supply.…

I agree with the statement about bad dealers. In general bad dealers of luxury items do not hang around long. Customers spending hard earned money for luxury things demand service. Dealers that don't comply.... well you know!

It might be interesting to see a new design but I'd be attracted to the old style myself anyway. I think of my Airstream as having soul and I like that! ….

They gave every indication (at the feedback forum at Alumapalooza) that they are constantly trying to address what owners see as shortfalls. They sounded very credible to me!

I just hope they continue to refine and produce what I believe is the worlds coolest trailer.

Bruce

Bruce, I don't know whether Airstream had an agreement with GE Finance. Thor was cash rich going into the Great Recession and was able to lend $20 M to Camping World, so Thor may have done the financing. I was under the impression that the largest auto companies financed dealer purchases because it was pretty lucrative and helps move inventory. Whatever the source of money, financing money dried up, slowly loosened after a few years, and is now drying up in Europe again. Whether the contagion spreads here is still up in the air.

Some bad dealers live on. Maybe Airstream cannot recruit dealers easily and maybe they are incompetent in doing so. In one case, a long standing personal relationship between a dealership owner and a Thor executive protects a bad dealership. It is nice to be nice to your friends, but if it hurts the company, that is a conflict of interest. With few dealers nationally, there is little competition to enforce high standards. Thus, it is up to the company and they aren't doing it.

You may have misinterpreted me on design. Like just about everyone on this Forum, we are entranced by the cool factor. But things like thermopane windows, better brakes, proper seals for all seams and penetrations, state of the art insulation, need to be addressed. Airstream seems to have 3 styles—

1. Old Aluminum—interior walls, but other finishes are cheap looking—Formica covered walls and cabinets are practical, but don't match the aluminum exterior walls. The puck and reading lights look great, but it took years before a dimmer was included. And by including cheap RV fixtures in some places (in ours, over dinette table, kitchen counter, bathroom, etc.) you ruin the look. The bedspread was out of the 1950's. But this is what we have in an '08 Safari SE. Of all the styles this was the best for us. I continually think about painting the partitions. To me this style embodies what Wally was trying to do—modern for the 30's and 40's and practical. Inspired by the same design that made aircraft so appealing and practical as a sturdy and lasting structure.

2. Modernistic—the Internationals seem to be where this style is concentrated with translucent cabinet doors and plastic looking cabinets. I think some have aluminum exterior walls like the SE too. The fabric used has some more contemporary designs. I know a lot of people like this, but it appeared too cold for us and those cabinet door sliders can bite fingers (ask me how I know).

3. 1950's—Classics seem to have this. Dark wood, flouncy decor, heavy feeling. A 1950's Ford is more attractive than this to me.

I'm sure this can be better defined, but this is a start. Does each of these have unity of design in a particular group? For ours the answer is no. Have they maximized the design possibilities? I think not. The Old Aluminum could use Art Deco principles to provide unity. I must admit the improvements to ours that we have done have not been done that way.

Beyond looks, the hidden things matter. Some of this I already stated, but there are more. I am glad they are listening at Alumapalooza. I spent 1 1/2 hours with Bob Wheeler several years ago bending his ear. He appeared sincere and wrote a lot of things down. But were they adopted? I haven't bought a newer trailer, so I can't say. But are the water pumps now mounted so the filter can be accessed from the door, or are they still mounted so the filter is hidden in a mass of wires and tubing? Turning them around would also make it much easier to add a bypass kit. Are they mounted on rubber to quiet them? He wrote those things down, but was anything done? I gave many more suggestions, but I can't remember which ones.

Tires were a big item at Alumapalooza, but tire problems have been known for years. Airstream started offering 16" wheels and LT tires as an option 3 or 4 years ago—I think it started only if you brought your trailer there for service and only with Goodyear LT tires. Then they added Michelins after they told me they couldn't. Why don't they just make this original equipment?

Follow up is hard. Who has the time or resources to see if they are adopting things they say interest them at individual encounters or Alumapalooza?

It seems most of the ideas and suggestions come from owners, not from within. And it seems there are people within who are stopping change because they don't like change, fear costs or are shortsighted.

So the basic design is timeless. Wally had it right. After his death, the company was sold to Beatrice Foods and quality slipped a lot. Then Thor was founded and bought Airstream. Quality improved, but Wally's idea to constantly improve and innovate has been weakened and maybe lost. It seems there may be roughly equal forces in administration that are pulling different ways—no change, cut, cut cut costs—and innovators who see long term. So things move ever so slowly and many people who would have bought Airstreams, read about the problems, and go elsewhere. These kind of conflicts are common in corporations or any human institutions. I have no idea whether Wheeler is trying to manage this conflict, or is on one side or the other. His job is dependent on Thor's leaders and he has to do what he can without losing their support, so blaming Wheeler for everything isn't fair.

Gene

[Gene]

Subfloors have been an issue for a very long time. The following is what is being used now. I don't know when they started using this, but it is not marine plywood as I understand it.

The problem is not just the subfloors, but that they are not sealing the trailers accordng to modern principles.

Gene

"Plywood Flooring—Travel Trailers
Airstream currently uses plywood flooring on all products.
The flooring is Sturd-I-Floor (APA), Exposure 1, with WPB (water and boil proof) type bonding adhesive.
The flooring is 19/32” (5/8”), tongue and groove.

"Bond Classification
Exposure 1 panels have a fully waterproof bond, WPB (weather and boil proof), and are designed for applications where long construction delays may be expected prior to providing protection, or where high moisture conditions may been countered in service. Exposure 1 panels are made with the same exterior adhesives used in exterior panels. However, because other compositional factors may affect bond performance, only exterior panels should be used for permanent
exposure to the weather.

"Plywood Glue Bond: Durability Classification
· All APA trademarked plywood has a 100% fully waterproof glue line.

"American Plywood Panel Bond Durability Classification
Exposure 1 Plywood manufactured with the same fully waterproof glue as used in Exterior plywood, these panels should only be used in applications where their ability to resist moisture and weather during long construction delays is required prior to them being protected.

"Summary— Exposure 1 rated plywood uses the same bonding adhesive as exterior plywood. Exposure 1plywood is designed to use in humid conditions and will tolerate getting wet for prolonged periods of time."

[danlehosky]

All, like my wife says maybe I just will never be satisfied. I have a practiced eye and by training look for flaws.

Is it me, or is it AS. Maybe a little of both.

Anyway I am done with this. I got rollon yesterday because I felt bad about Mohave and I felt if this thread took off AS might notice and maybe make things right for him.

Dan

[Mr.Bill]

Looking at this as a claims adjuster, a couple of notes:

The whole issue of the dealer is a red herring. Mojave bought a travel trailer from Airstream. He had the reasonable expectation that it would be fit for its intended purpose, camping. It wasn't, as the roof leaked. Airstream was well aware of roof leakage issues and should have taken steps to correct the problem long ago. If they had delivered a trailer fit for its intended purpose Mojave wouldn't have had to take it to the dealer in the first place.

If Mojave signed a contract stating that, at Airsteam's option the trailer might have to be taken to the factory to complete warranty work Airstream might have a case. If not, telling a customer that they will have to tow a trailer over 2,000 miles at their own expense just to get the seller to honor their warranty seems to border on egregious conduct.

Several people have made the case that trailers today involve complex systems that require special training to repair. This may be true, but remember the customer's original complaint - the roof leaks. Building a non-leaking roof is not rocket science, it's one of the first steps in civilization. Any competent RV repair shop should have been able to fix the problem.

Back in the 80's I handled a lot of claims involving high-end cars. It was not unhear-of for Lamborghini to fly a mechanic out from Italy to the U.S. to oversee the repairs to a customer's car. Perhaps Airstream could have a similar program?

Lastly, requiring a customer to sign a non-disclosure agreement before performing warranty repairs is over-the-top. I feel confident in saying that if the case went to court Airstream would be slapped with punitive damages for this.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bill

The whole issue of the dealer is a red herring.…

If not, telling a customer that they will have to tow a trailer over 2,000 miles at their own expense just to get the seller to honor their warranty seems to border on egregious conduct.…

Lastly, requiring a customer to sign a non-disclosure agreement before performing warranty repairs is over-the-top. I feel confident in saying that if the case went to court Airstream would be slapped with punitive damages for this.

'Bill,

First, the dealer is out of this (probably, did they cause the leak? —unlikely, but possible). The trailer was brought to an independent RV shop, apparently with Airstream's OK. I agree, Airstream is responsible for the initial leak. Subsequent damage seems to have occurred at that shop and that shop seems to be responsible for it, but since Airstream adopted them, they may share liability.

This would not be the 1st time Airstream suggested an owner bring it to JC. I can understand that—it was the a way for Airstream to find out exactly what happened, but it is not practical for most people. Nonetheless, Airstream should go out of their way to solve such problems. Look at the blow back from not doing so—however, maybe there are things we don't know about that. Mojave is out $20,000, but how can the damage to Airstream's reputation be quantified? If one or two sales are lost because of this, Airstream would do well to express a check to Mojave, announce it, apologize, and cut their losses. Will they do so? Unlikely.

This also would not be the first time Airstream wanted a customer to keep quiet about repairs made. One instance I am aware of was where 2 trailers were repaired out of warranty for a pretty serious problem. But the failure was not a warranty issue—it was a product liability issue. The product was designed so badly that liability is independent of warranty coverage. Nondisclosure (another way of saying confidentiality) agreements are common. I hate them, but sometimes it is part of the bargain to end a dispute. I would love it if they were banned in all except a few special circumstances (privacy issues, for ex.), but it isn't going to happen unless some courageous court bans them because they compromise the openness of court proceedings. That won't help where, as in these cases, no courts are involved.

People post that execs at Airstream watch the Forum. They do. One has 2 memberships here (maybe too many people figured out the first one). But the people who watch don't have absolute power or you'd think (or hope) change would be faster.

Gene

[dkottum]

Wood subfloor rot is a non-issue if you get a Moisture Detection Meter and use it.

Corrosion is a non-issue if you treat the metal edges and openings, and clean and coat the filiform early.

Isn't this the easy way?

doug k

[tpi]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Wood subfloor rot is a non-issue if you get a Moisture Detection Meter and use it.

Corrosion is a non-issue if you treat the metal edges and openings, and clean and coat the filiform early.

Isn't this the easy way?

doug k

Filiform is a side effect of the iconic design. I truly don't believe there is a solution with hundreds of rivet holes. There's always flexing at these points and avenues of corrosion open up. Yes treat it, be aware of it.

The floor is an issue I believe can be solved, probably rather easily. Excessive maintenance requirement is a workaround to poor design, IMO. Quite a few trailers are in very humid climates, stored offsite, or hard to access, and this maintenance can be burdensome. RVs are already a handful to maintain relative to their use level. Lets strip out needless maintenance through good design!

[FlashSilver]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

The owners obligation was to return it to the nearest authorized dealer. This is something they elected not to do....

Bruce

I don't think this is right, my warranty says I can take it to any dealer. Warranty work is profitable for the dealer so choose one carefully and the nearest, or the one who sold you the unit, is not always the best choice.

[dkottum]

Do this maintenance once a quarter and you are way ahead of the problems. Takes about an hour to inspect and treat.

doug k

[Phoenix]

Video for newbies and others unfamiliar with filliform corrosion:

aluMATTER*|*Aluminium*|*Forms of Corrosion*|*Filliform Corrosion

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Video for newbies and others unfamiliar with filliform corrosion:

aluMATTER*|*Aluminium*|*Forms of Corrosion*|*Filliform Corrosion

"The metal was first produced in 1825 in an impure form.."

Maybe it's time to keep the shape and change the material. OMG did he really suggest that!!!

"Corrosion resistance can be excellent due to a thin surface layer of aluminium oxide that forms when the metal is exposed to air, effectively preventing further oxidation."

Filiform solution..

Don't use the pre-coated panels, would you be happy with the patina? or go back to doing the clear-coat in house after assembly.

Bob

[Gene]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Don't use the pre-coated panels, would you be happy with the patina? or go back to doing the clear-coat in house after assembly.

Bob

Bob, didn't they stop coating the panels themselves because they would have to have a clean room, special outfits for the workers and all sorts of ventilation? I don't know if they could dab the edges with clear coat when they cut them without an OSHA problem.

Gene

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Bob, didn't they stop coating the panels themselves because they would have to have a clean room, special outfits for the workers and all sorts of ventilation? I don't know if they could dab the edges with clear coat when they cut them without an OSHA problem.

Gene

That was the reason given, but there are many shops a lot smaller than AS that have all the needed equipment and trained personal.

I think it had more to do with the bean counters and convenience.

Bob

[Gene]

Bob, the floor space at the factory seems to be used up, so they might have to build an addition. I think they've had OSHA problems and I think that's why they prohibit photography during the tour. They are also very anti-union.

I wonder where they draw their labor force and what type of background they have. It probably comes from surrounding counties. They are mostly rural with some small towns. Do their workers get good pay? Do they have any experience with metalwork, RV's, plumbing, electrical, flooring, etc.? I would expect that they don't and may not get much training before they become journeymen who may be much on their own. Those must be the guys who screw the skylights on too tight and do a sloppy job with sealant.

One of the beginning jobs at the factory is doing the insulation. It is difficult to do fiberglass correctly (there was an article in Fine Homebuilding about this in the past year). It needs to be sealed all around and never compressed. Many guys in the construction trades do a bad job with the "pink stuff" and the R value comes out low. Do these guys at JC know how to do this right? The article showed R-19 fiberglass at best comes out R-16 or 17 in real use. Two inches used in Airstreams would be nominally R-8.5, but if not done well, could be R-5 or less.

It is hard to build these things—so much crammed into a small space and so many different trades involved. It would take a long time to teach someone how to do it, and do they? The evidence comes from the sloppy practices often reported—crap left in the trailers shows a disdain for the product—and poor workmanship seen in so many trailers. If you buy one, hope you have one built by old timers.

Gene

[Lily&Me]

Sad to hear.

There has got to be a way for Airstream to provide more consistent quality assurance off the assembly line.

It's inexcusable, in my opinion.



Maggie

[Fly at Night]

Mr. Bill wrote...."Back in the 80's I handled a lot of claims involving high-end cars. It was not unhear-of for Lamborghini to fly a mechanic out from Italy to the U.S. to oversee the repairs to a customer's car. Perhaps Airstream could have a similar program?"

I am curious as to the qualifications of a dealership's "Airstream technician" especially when the dealership sells other RV brands besides Airstream.

Do the dealers send their tech to JC for training or does JC send a technician to train the dealership tech or does the "Airstream technician" simply read a service manual in his spare time - and darnnit all - he never did get to the chapter about fixing leaks?

I suggested on this forum long ago that it would be wonderful if Airstream sent one of their best techs to the various dealerships to oversee/assist in repair and warranty work. A once or twice/year visit /dealership. The AS owners would be advised of this visit and would book their trailer for service in advance. It would be wonderful if the tech could also host a seminar for all AS owners while there.