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Old 07-16-2018, 12:32 PM   #1
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1984 31' Sovereign
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12 V Breaker Tripping when Converter Connected to Batteries

I recently replaced my converter in my 1985 Sovereign and when I'm connected to shore 110 and the batteries are connected to to the converter, I have 2 breakers connecting the 12V breaker panel to the batteries continuously tripping.

I'm basing this on that I can hear the breakers click on and off when I'm hooked up. If I disconnect the batteries, the clicking stops.

Attached is a photo of the panel and you can see where the connections are to the converter and batteries. I believe it is the two breakers under where the batteries connect that are breaking.
Click image for larger version

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ID:	317137

I'm also attaching a picture of the new converter.

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Any help would be appreciated.

Phil
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Old 07-16-2018, 02:22 PM   #2
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The picture of the converter isn't clear enough to read the details, what model of Boondocker converter is it?

How many batteries? Ah each? Voltage each?
What is the current state of those batteries? Any possible shorted cells?

This might help others give you hints on the cause of the issue, but it sounds like more energy is going between the converter and the batteries than the breakers (and thus the wiring) are spec'd for.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:52 PM   #3
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It's a PowerMax Boondocker PM3B-60 which is a 3-stage converter/charger. It's output is rated at 14.6/13.6/13.2 for Boost/Normal/Float modes and 60 AMP.

I've got 2 Deep Cycle Interstate Batteries, 12 V. Not sure the current charge state, but it's not full but not dead either. They are only about a month old and were working fine during our camping trip over the 4th of July week. They seemed to recharge on the drive home. Shorted cells are unlikely.
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Old 07-16-2018, 08:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipRay View Post
I recently replaced my converter in my 1985 Sovereign and when I'm connected to shore 110 and the batteries are connected to to the converter, I have 2 breakers connecting the 12V breaker panel to the batteries continuously tripping.

I'm basing this on that I can hear the breakers click on and off when I'm hooked up. If I disconnect the batteries, the clicking stops.

Attached is a photo of the panel and you can see where the connections are to the converter and batteries. I believe it is the two breakers under where the batteries connect that are breaking.
Attachment 317137

I'm also attaching a picture of the new converter.
Attachment 317138

Any help would be appreciated.

Phil
My guess is that you have installed a larger capacity converter than the original. IMHO you don't have it wired correctly.
The load from charging the batteries and operating the DC equipment in the coach excedes the breaker capacity. Especially the 40 amp breaker.
One other note:
The terminal with the 40 amp breaker is labelled "Charge Line" on the panel schedule. Where do you have the charge line connected? IMHO you should not have the converter output connected there,
I would remove the large red wire on the left and connect it to the same terminal as the battery wire.
Your converter has internal protection and will limit the output to the converter rating. It's hard to see the rating in your pic. It appears to be 60 amps. Which is the same as the breaker on the right.
The 60 amp breaker protects the fuse panel. The 40 amp breaker protects the Charge line from an overload.
This is only an educated guess. Based on what I see in your pics.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:08 PM   #5
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I now see where the charge line is connected.
You have the converter wired to the middle buss. Which means it has to go thru the 60 amp breaker to charge the batteries. Seems backwards to me. As the coach load is on the left side or buss side of the breaker. The source should be on the right side of the breaker.
I would still move the converter wire to the battery terminal.
Just noticed the empty terminal on the right side labelled "charger".
Must be where the old converter terminated. 30 amp breaker. Too small for your new converter.
I am sticking with my recommendation to connect the new converter at the buss for the battery.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:08 AM   #6
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Your recommendation to move the Converter to the other side of the 60 Amp along the battery buss makes sense so I'll give it a try. I'm not sure why there is an empty 20A breaker - my guess is that it went bad so they piggy backed on the breaker above it.

I'm thinking that the 40 Amp breaker goes to the aux power line on the connector to the Tow Vehicle, but I'll have to verify it.

As an interesting note, I have had the batteries disconnected (using the cutoff switch) with the converter powered for a couple of days. The converter has stepped down to it's maintenance voltage of 13.2V. I reconnected the batteries (using the cutoff switch) and now there is no popping. Maybe the converter limits the current further at the lower voltage?

My only other question is if the batteries are above 11V charge (which I verified) why would they draw enough current to trip the 60Amp breakers. And also, I don't have enough practical electrician knowledge to understand how on a DC system, you can use 2 breakers in parallel like this. Is each one of these 2 breakers 60Amp or is each one of the pair 30Amp? (I'm talking about the 2 breakers connected to the battery buss.)

Thanks for the helpful advice.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:31 AM   #7
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11 volts at the batteries means they are not charged.
IMHO the converter would be at max output in an effort to charge them.
A second look at the 30 amp breaker. I read the schedule and thought it read "charge". In fact it reads "orange". Not sure what branch circuit it feeds.
All of the breakers are in parallel. The buss powers the breakers which in turn power and protect the individual branch circuits.
What is the voltage reading at the point where the battery cable is connected to the buss?
Read it with the converter on. Then read it with the converter off.
Not sure how the battery cut off switch is wired into the circuit.
Does it disconnect the batteries from the DC power panel?
Does it also disconnect the converter. There for not charging the batteries?
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:18 AM   #8
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Hi

Ummmm ..... errrr .....

The 60A converter will put out *maybe* 40 amps. Why? that's just the way it is.

The breaker is something you *should* leave in place. If there is a wire fault, it's there to protect the wire from the battery discharging into it ( = starting a fire). The same breaker is there on a *lot* of Airstreams. If it's a 40A, It can be replaced with a 50A version if the wiring is up to handling the higher current.

Considering this is a 40+ year old trailer, I would not *assume* anything is sill stock. Pull the breakers and check the numbers on them. Somebody may have a 20A breaker where a 50A should be ....

Bob
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:10 PM   #9
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Ok - here is a stupid question - is it obvious how to pull the breaker? Do I just take off the power bus and the breaker somehow pulls out of a socket? I'm hoping it doesn't mean taking out the rivets? In my feeble attempts to look for guidance, I couldn't find any with these older style breakers.
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:21 PM   #10
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Hi

The breaker is *much* more basic that it looks from the top side. Assuming you don't have something weird - it mounts by the two nuts you can see from the top. If they are both off, it just drops out of the bus bar. The hard part is finding the screws that mount the insulator that holds the bus bar to the deck.

What you are looking for is probably an SAE Type II thermal reset breaker. The "modified" version is preferred. It has a feature that keeps it from resetting while the "short" is still present.

Again, this is Airstream, there is never a way to be sure of anything ....

Bob
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:30 PM   #11
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Most 120 volt breakers install the same way. The end of the breaker OPPOSITE where the wire screws down has a clip that hooks over the buss bar prong. To get the breaker off, disconnect ALL power first.

Remove the cover, if any, that holds the breakers in place and protects you from all the connections and wires in the back part ot the breaker box. Mark and remove the wire from under the screw of the breaker you want ot replace.

Grab and pull the part of the breaker assembly opposite the screw that holds the wire. It should come loose and pivot toward you. When it gets to about 30-45 degrees from its original position, it should lift out of the rail that holds it in.

The breaker should be marked as to type and size. Take it with you when you go to the big box home improvement store get a new one. Compare the new one carefully to the old one. the shape of the new breaker should be identical to the old one.

Installation is simple. Hook the wire screw side into the rail in the box, pivot the breaker onto the buss bar, and push it firmly into position. It should be lined up flush with the fornt of the other breakers. Replace the wire, making sure the screw is tight. For good measure, check tightness of the screws on the other breakers. Reassemble the front cover. You're done!
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:37 PM   #12
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The 60 amp breaker protects the 12 volt breaker panel.
It does nothing to protect the battery cable.
The converter actually has more protection for the wire since it will crowbar and shut down if overloaded.
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:37 PM   #13
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OOPS. The 12 volt DC breakers you picture are a different beast. The stuff I wrote applies to 120 volt AC breakers, non self-resetting. It's correct, but out of context.

These look like self-resetting DC breakers. They have two bolts in the insulator that are the input and output connections. They bolt into the bussbars on one end, and the wires are bolted on the other end. They may have a metal or plastic case with the details printed on the side. Unfortunately, you have to pull them out to get a properly rated (amperage) replacement. There may be a tab on the case of the breakers that hold all this stuff into the panel. You may have to take the cover plate off to see all the fasteners holding the breakers in. The buss bars are just bolted to the breaker terminals to insulate them.

BE ABSOLUTELY SURE THE CONVERTER IS SHUT DOWN, SHORE POWER DISCONNECTED, AND SOLAR (IF ANY) IS PROPERLY SHUT DOWN, AND THE BATTERIES ARE DISCONNECTED BEFORE REACHING INTO THE BOX WITH METAL TOOLS. Flash burns and fire are no fun...

If you can, replace this obsolete wiring with a modern fuse panel. It's much safer. The problem is a self-resetting breaker uses heat to shut it down. When it cools, it resets. If it cycles too many times on a heavy overload, the contacts can weld shut, and start a fire in the wiring.

Either fuses, or manually-reset breakers are the standard nowadays.
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
The 60 amp breaker protects the 12 volt breaker panel.
It does nothing to protect the battery cable.
The converter actually has more protection for the wire since it will crowbar and shut down if overloaded.
Hi

Ummm .... errr ..... there are two breakers involved. If you go back to the original post that is made very clear. One is indeed in series with the cable to the charger ( and a few other things as well).

As always this *assumes* nobody has messed with things and it was done in the "normal" fashion in that model / year.

Bob
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:34 PM   #15
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I believe I mentioned the 40 amp breaker in one of my first responses.
See post 4 above.
The idea of installing a new converter rated for 60 amps would be to provide that capacity thru the 60 amp breaker. Which is the case with the battery cable. Not to charge the batteries thru the 60 amp breaker.

The 40 amp breaker is not connected to the converter. It is connected to the charge line from the TV.
The converter is connected to the buss.
Because the converter is connected thru the buss the only way to charge the batteries is to back feed thru the 60 amp breaker.
If the batteries are at 11 volts as mentioned earlier. The breaker may be tripping due to the 60 amp capacity of the converter.
The 60 amp breaker looks old. It may have lost some of it's rating.

The OP does not state which breaker was tripping. The 40 or 60 amp or both. If it is the 40 amp then there is a problem with the charge line. Perhaps it is shorted to the chassis somewhere.????
The OP stated he replaced the original converter.
Did he connect the new converter to the terminals that were used by the old converter?
What was the capacity of the old converter. 30 amp ????.
How many batteries were in the coach originally?
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:21 PM   #16
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Hi

In the original post, two breakers are circled in red. He mentions breakers tripping. It's a reasonable bet that the ones with the red circles are the ones that are tripping.

The picture also shows the label on the breakers. One of the ones circled in red shows as going to "battery positive". The other one circled in red shows as going to "charge line". Since that's the way most trailers are done ( breaker from battery to bus, breaker from charger to. bus) it fits the way AS *has* done in fairly often over the years. It happens to be the way my 2017 is set up (with the same stupid breakers ....).

Bob
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:17 PM   #17
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Based on the photo of the original layout/label, to me it looks like the original wire from the converter would have connected to the lower left 40 amp breaker, not to the (+) buss bar. Why would the new converter be connected differently? Should that breaker be upsized to match the output of the new converter? (I don't know, but when I upsized my converters from 55 to 60 I did not change any breakers)

Why is there a 12 ga wire attached to that 40 amp breaker in the lower left. If it is a 40 amp, that wire and the equipment on that circuit is not protected properly.

Is the taped end of the converter wire touching the ground lug? That would make those breaker click!

Somebody had definitely moved some wires, so assume nothing. Test!
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:57 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
Based on the photo of the original layout/label, to me it looks like the original wire from the converter would have connected to the lower left 40 amp breaker, not to the (+) buss bar. Why would the new converter be connected differently? Should that breaker be upsized to match the output of the new converter? (I don't know, but when I upsized my converters from 55 to 60 I did not change any breakers)

Why is there a 12 ga wire attached to that 40 amp breaker in the lower left. If it is a 40 amp, that wire and the equipment on that circuit is not protected properly.

Is the taped end of the converter wire touching the ground lug? That would make those breaker click!

Somebody had definitely moved some wires, so assume nothing. Test!
Looks to me like the schedule calls for a #8 wire on the 40 amp breaker.
The 40 amp breaker does not protect the charge line from the TV. It is limiting the current from the TV to the breaker panel.
One could summize this is where the old converter positve wire was terminated.
If this is the case, the 40 amp breaker would trip long before the 60 amp going to the battery.
I agree with the above post. Recommending an upgrade to a modern fuse panel.
With the converter off.
One of the first things I would do is to disconnect the charge line wire. If in fact the 40 amp breaker is tripping. Then turn the converter on. If the breaker holds, that's good. If the breaker trips when the charge line wire is reconnected, the problem is in the charge line. Disconnect the charge line again in either case.
With the converter off again.
Disconnect the battery + lead, at the battery first. Then at the fuse panel.
Then turn the converter on and test for voltage on the load side of the 60 amp breaker. Anything above 13 volts is OK at this point.
Turn the converter off.
With the charge line still disconnected. Reconnect the battery cable.
Turn the converter on.
If the breaker holds. Check the voltage again.
Hopefully this will narrow things down.
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Old 07-17-2018, 09:21 PM   #19
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It is definitely wired WRONG.
See the schematic drawing on pages G6 and G7 in the Owners Manuel
https://www.airstream.com/wp-content...0110i.arc_.pdf

TG, you were correct about the charge line
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