Any PLUMBERS out there?? Pressure regulator, water pump questions

[steelbird312]

The regulator is marked 45 psi and I hadn?t adjusted anything. The overflow is rated 125 psi ?unless stamped otherwise?, and it is stamped 60 psi.
I know that the water at my house is much higher pressure than usual, around 75 psi.
(I did later try to turn the screw on top the regulator inward. It didn?t seem to change anything).
Why is the regulator failing to reduce the incoming 75 psi to 45 psi, which must be happening if the overflow is kicking in?

Sergei,
When you ran the screw in, you adjusted the pressure regulator TO A HIGHER PRESSURE. These regulators can, rarely, go bad. The first thing needed, in your troubleshooting, in my opinion, is a pressure gauge to see what pressure is actually coming through the Watts. Then, you will know if it is working. Then, and only then, would you know whether to look elsewhere.
Personally, I think your regulator is at fault. It is perfectly OK to take it apart to check the seats, as well as the shaft. Check for grit or trash. Any kind of residue or build up. If it has limestone residue in it, a days soaking in vinegar will clean that.
Your work is very neat as well. Looks as if you may have a fortune in brass couplers!

[markdoane]

Sergei,

Tell us more about the IPEX system. Where did you get it, and is it easy to install. How much does it cost?

I goggled Ipex. I discovered that Victoria's Secret makes a bra called the Ipex.

Interesting excursion, but I'm sure you used something different.

[SmokelessJoe]

Markdoane:

I think IPEX is a Canadian company operating internationally out of Mississauga, Ontario, near Toronto.

Here is the link to their USA site:

http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/EN_US/

I bought it at the hardware store in the closest small town to me. Home Depot at London, an hour away, also has IPEX Aqua and another less costly line but it’s better to buy locally. Less driving when you forget a fitting or make a mistake. More helpful staff too.

The pipe is a bendable aluminum, plastic coated inside and outside. The fittings are brass, although I note on their site today that they now make neat looking plastic fittings as well.

I think the cost was about $265.00 Cdn., stem to stern.


Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

Friends:

I bought an in-expensive pressure gauge today but there was no obvious way for me to connect it into my system. So much for trying to find out which device was malfunctioning.

I concluded that if I’m going to spend any more money on these 30 year old parts I might as well have new ones.

Tomorrow I’m going to order this regulator:

http://nhsmarine.com/WaterPressureRegulator/default.htm

It costs about the same as a Watts but I think it’s more versatile.

A question: why did Airstream install an overflow or relief valve just downstream of the pressure regulator? What’s its intended function? Back-up if the regulator doesn’t regulate - or something else as well?

I saw a plainly packaged one in a Big Box today. It had a knurled knob on the top but not one word of explanation as to how it could be set or adjusted.

No one in the store knew either.

Advice awaited. Thanks.

Sergei

[LI Pets]

The way you use the guage is to install an inline T fitting. You put that in anyplace you can to get a line of sight on it.
The branch of the T gets a reducing fitting to accept the guage, I think 1/4" you then adjust the knob on the regulator to 45lbs etc.

Its so standard I guess there's no instructions an the box?

[steelbird312]

Sergei,
This is a guess, I don't know this as a fact. Could it be that the pressure regulator is a 40 PSI, and the line has a check valve in it to prevent backflow when using the onboard pump, so the pressure created by the hot water heater would pressurize the system unless it is released someway. So, the 60 PSI is put in for the purpose of protecting the entire system? Now, that begs the question, did the overflow start spewing water as soon as you turned on the street water supply? If you use only the onboard pump to run the system, does water come out of the overflow?
As for hooking up your gauge, What about an adapter to screw it to the kitchen faucet? Take the aereator off and you should be able to attach it there using an adapter. Be sure to leave only the cold turned on to verify the pressure.

[Chuck]

the relief valve is there to protect from the hot water heater overpressurising the line.

[juel]

We are in the process of replacing old water lines in our 78 Argosy, at least in places until we can bring it home and winterize. We had a leak in the rear bathroom closet that was leaking out a drain tube to the ground. The pipes back there appear to be original and one was balooned out a little. The pressure regulator is still in place; however, we got another one to put on the outside hose and the leak stopped. Now we know we need to replace some of the piping while the trailer is being used. We don't want to take the chance of ruining the floor. My big question is WHAT ABOUT THE NEW INTELLIPOWER. It is sitting right back there in the middle of all those pipes. Has anyone put this thing up on blocks or in an elevated tray? I'm not comfortable with it sitting on the floor in all the "potential water".

[SmokelessJoe]

Bob, I bought the cheap pressure gauge at a local big box. It was shrunk wrapped onto a plain chunk of cardboard with only the name of the company and “Delvan, Wisconsin”. That’s all. Not a word about specs, origin, installation.

I thought I could connect it using one of those flexible sink risers that I had at the job but it wouldn’t fit.

I realized then that if I’m going to spend more time and money running around trying to find out if either my regulator or relief valve is shot I could just as cheaply have a brand new one. I’m buying a new regulator with a built in dial. See above.

Chuck, Steelbird. Your analysis of why the relief valve / what it does makes sense. I didn’t understand at first because it is mounted in the COLD line, just down stream of the regulator. But water heating in the water heater would expand and put a backpressure on the cold coming in to it, right?

If so, I do need a relief valve in my new system.

This is a brand new plumbing system going into a stripped bare trailer. I don’t have appliances, faucets, etc. installed.

So far, what is in place is what’s photographed above. I hooked the hot and cold into a “loop” so that I could pressurize the lines and test everything before I go on to the next stage.

Today I will continue joining the existing set up to the water heater and then to the water pump and tank.

I want to devise a method to plumb the holding tank into the onboard cold supply so that I can fill it with just a twist of a valve.

Juel, sounds like you have an overflow problem similar to my situation. I would follow your instinct to elevate the converter. That makes sense if the INTELLIPOWER is in an area were a leak could develop.


Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

Markdoane, in your photo above:

Is that brass T in the upper left hand corner, the one with the hose barb, a relief valve?

If so, what type and where did you get it?

What function does a relief valve serve? Is it a necessity or an added touch in a trailer?

Anyone else who might know please feel free to answer.

Sergei

[markdoane]

Sergei,

No, the tee in the upper left is where the coldwater line from the pump joins up with the city supply water line from the regulator. The open end of the tee is where the cold water line will continue back to the rear bathroom.

Regarding a pressure relief valve, I don't know if you need one or not. There is normally one on your water heater, but it is usually set to pop at 120psi. Can your plumbing sytem handle that much pressure? There are a few other reasons to put in a relief valve, but I don't see one (other than on the water heater) in the current piping diagrams from Airstream.

Here's another picture of my piping system, and the outside access panel. I'm pretty proud of how it turned out. There is a city water inlet, a hot water faucet, an inlet for the tankflusher, a cold water spigot, and a control lanyard for the macerator pump and tank flusher solenoid valve.

[3Ms75Argosy]

I too worried about water.... so I mounted mine up on two blocks of 2x4's.... it'll be hard for the water to get up 2"..... if it is, I want an Arc.
Marc

[Chuck]

I'm not sure about the pop-off valve, either, but I suspect its because there are multiple possible scenarios where you could have an over-pressure situation. the water heater, although it has its own...the fact that the whole system in a trailer is small, and therefore, pressure will build much faster than say, in a house. If you leave the trailer parked, and forget to turn off the water heater, for example, it might be days before someone opens a valve and releases the built up pressure...what if the pressure switch on your pump fails, or is set too high?

I heard several people at a recent rally comment that they had "problems" when they hooked up to the water...apparently, the pressure was very hight. I'm not sure exactly what happened. Now that I think of it, they might have all been late-model owners...can't remember specifically. (didn't someone say that they don't put that type of regulator in the trailers anymore?). Anyway, the point is that there is a potential for problems.

Mark: very cool 'service' entrance. What's the deal with the tank flusher? looks like it comes in, then goes right back out. (?)

[markdoane]

Originally Posted by chuck

Mark: very cool 'service' entrance. What's the deal with the tank flusher? looks like it comes in, then goes right back out. (?)

I agree on the other possible needs for a pop-off valve. Especially if you have an older belt drive pump.

The tank flusher looks like it goes back out, but it actually is going into a right angle solenoid valve. The tubing away from the solenoid isn't installed yet.

[SmokelessJoe]

The Cape Cod manufacturer wrote today saying that they’d shipped my new water pressure regulator by US Post; could I send a cheque when I have time and “ good luck with your Airstream project”.

That’s a nice old-fashioned way to run a business.

I also bought an inexpensive fitting at the hardware store and hooked up the pressure gauge.

As I thought, my home pressure is 70 psi.

Next I plumbed a new check valve and the old relief valve into the line.

When I hooked up the water again the relief valve produced a steady stream that I estimate was the difference between its 60 pound setting and the 70 psi town water supply.

So that probably explains what has happened. My Watts regulator was likely not maintaining the 45 psi on the label. When I lived in my trailer for 10 days a year ago, the campground water pressure was probably below 45 pounds so I wouldn’t have noticed anything ‘till now.

I ran into Charlie Jackson, the 78 year old plumber at the hardware store and showed him my relief valve. He said he never uses them.

I installed mine anyway. The Indel water heater releases at 80 psi but the extra valve gives one more level of protection.

The PEX is rated for 125 psi.

Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

The work you are doing is very nice stuff.

What type of plumbing system are you using; the neat looking burgundy and brass stuff?

What was your reasoning behind plumbing hot water to your good looking access hatch?

I did something similar, having had a “waste management compartment” built just after my street side rear wheel.

It houses the macerator and the connection to the tank washer. I have a hose standard there for hand washing and to supply the tank-washing inlet. (I have a double check valve on the tap).

I can add hot water to the compartment if your reason for using it strikes me as useful enough.


Sergei

[markdoane]

Joe,

Good idea on the double check on the tank flusher, but you also should have a vacuum breaker/anti-siphon, mounted 12" above the black tank. You can usually do this inside the bathroom vanity, if it is located adjacent to the blacktank.

The piping system I'm using is regular PEX with the crimp rings. I'm using regular crosslinked PEX tubing, but not the gaudy red and blue stuff.

The hot water spigot in my water service panel is rather accidental. The low point of my hot water main is right next to the water panel. I was going to put in a drain valve and drain through the belly pan, but it was simpler (and closer) to run it to the water panel. So it's really just a low point drain.

But it also would let me take a shower outside, or use hot water to give my black tank a really thorough cleaning.

[SmokelessJoe]

Minnesota Mark:

Thanks for the reply.

Good idea on the double check on the tank flusher, but you also should have a vacuum breaker/anti-siphon, mounted 12" above the black tank. You can usually do this inside the bathroom vanity, if it is located adjacent to the black tank.

We used the No Fuss Flush out of the Camping World catalog. I assumed it’s the same No Flush that AIRSTREAM uses but it is cheap looking stuff, almost a weal link in my better system.

Can you send me a picture of what a vacuum breaker/anti-siphon looks like?

The bumph on the No Flush says that it has a safety back-flow built in. My tap in the compartment has a built in back-flow they say. But I didn’t want to take a chance so I put an accessory one on the tap. That makes three back-flows in total!


But it also would let me take a shower outside, or use hot water to give my black tank a really thorough cleaning.


While the belly pan is off and I’m doing the plumbing I might just add a hot tap to my compartment. It would be easily done now and never done later, if you know what I mean.

The photo shows the current state of my undercarriage plumbing. The black tank is to the upper left; grey the larger one to the right. The yellow hoses are the heater lines to the tanks. The drains run to a common outlet in the aluminum compartment, were the macerator is housed. The white poly is the No Flush line.




Sergei

[markdoane]

Joe,

Below is a picture of a Sloan atmoshperic vacuum breaker. It is model #V-370-A 3/8. I tried to make a very fancy portrait, like Andy's picture of the brake magnets, but it came a little less than professional.

I am using a "Tornado" tank flusher. I don't know what Airstream uses, but I think it is either a No Fuss or a Tornado. They're all just cheap plastic.

I would recommend a vacuum breaker, but it's your trailer. I plan to keep a spray bottle of dis-infectant in my water connection panel, but you can't be too careful with cross-connections and backflow preventers.

Regardless, when I travel I drink only stuff out of a bottle. No sense taking chances.

[Frank S]

Hi markdoane--We have always used water out of a bottle to drink. We have never liked to idea of drinking water that has come through the hose, plumbing, or out of the onboard water tank. We do our best to keep these clean, however there are just too many potential problems, to drink this water. We use 6 square liter plastic bottles (from bottled water) which we keep in a box, we made from cardboard and duct tape, under the kitchen sink. When it it time to refill we take the box out to the city water pipe, where we have a faucet connection in conjuction with our hose connection, and fill the bottles. Handy to have a bottle on the picnic table when we are outside.--Frank S