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02-11-2014, 01:23 PM
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#1
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2 Rivet Member
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 86
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Building Airstream From Scratch - What would you do?
Hello.
What started out as an old canned ham trailer I found in a field has turned into building an Airstream from scratch. At least using similar construction methods.
Right now I have the metal trailer frame, new leaf spring drop axle (i'll put torsion on there after I finish it and weigh it. I messed up there.) , deck built. After talking to a pro airstream restorer he's convinced me to abandon the stick built frame and go all aluminum C channel, buck rivets with 2024t3 skin.
I fear no project. But first things first.
I'm going to buy the Buck Rivet kit from:
Airstream Buck Riveting Kit
1/16 or .032 C Channel from my local shop here in Austin.
Aluminum 2024T3 from aircraftsrpruce.com or aircraft parts.com depending on length.
1st Question.
I feel like I'm kinda starting over now that i've decide to abandon wood. If you had a 10ft by 7 ft deck ready to build on…. what design would you fancy?
I've attached my original canned ham concept based on the donor trailer that seems do-able since it looks like the lovely curved top corners of Airstreams require some special shaped aluminum? Of course this means trim on the outside corners…. hmmmm….
What would you do?
Cheers!
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02-11-2014, 01:31 PM
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#2
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Moderator
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Alamo Heights
, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,493
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I think that if you wanted to replicate the shape with a 15-panel end cap, it can be made from regular flat stock. (This is just my impression from reading AIRForums way too much, hopefully someone with direct experience with 15-panel end caps will confirm or deny my guess definitively.) The newer shapes with fewer panels on the endcap do require specially-formed pieces.
Since you're starting with a different sort of structural underpinning than an Airstream frame, you should look into the way Avions and Silver Streaks were built and see if that might be easier to replicate when building from scratch.
__________________
— David
Zero Gravitas — 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | WBCCI# 15566
He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. — Sir Winston Churchill
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02-11-2014, 01:44 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
1979 23' Safari
1954 29' Liner
Orange
, California
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,849
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Colin Hyde has been working on a 13 panel end cap kit. Contact him at ColinHydeTrailerRestorations or through TheVAP.com.
Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX
I think that if you wanted to replicate the shape with a 15-panel end cap, it can be made from regular flat stock. (This is just my impression from reading AIRForums way too much, hopefully someone with direct experience with 15-panel end caps will confirm or deny my guess definitively.) The newer shapes with fewer panels on the endcap do require specially-formed pieces.
Since you're starting with a different sort of structural underpinning than an Airstream frame, you should look into the way Avions and Silver Streaks were built and see if that might be easier to replicate when building from scratch.
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__________________
Bill Kerfoot, WBCCI/VAC/CAC/El Camino Real Unit #5223
Just my personal opinion
1973 Dodge W200 PowerWagon, 1977 Lincoln Continental, 2014 Dodge Durango
1979 23' Safari, and 1954 29' Double Door Liner Orange, CA
https://billbethsblog.blogspot.com/
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02-11-2014, 01:48 PM
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#4
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Moderator
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Alamo Heights
, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,493
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D'oh! I should've written 13-panel rather than 15-panel... While I have seen one 15-panel Airstream that a friend owns, the 13-panel "normal" 50s shape was the one I had in my head.
__________________
— David
Zero Gravitas — 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | WBCCI# 15566
He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. — Sir Winston Churchill
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02-11-2014, 02:10 PM
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#5
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4 Rivet Member
1969 25' Tradewind
1971 18' Caravel
Berkeley Springs
, West Virginia
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 423
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Or you might consider going a totally different route with the design.
Check out this discussion thread.......
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f48/...ml#post1229075
__________________
Tom
Res nolunt diu male administrari.
WDCU Unit #170
Air #7085
TAC VA-4
WBCCI #2641
VAC
71 Caravel
69 Tradewind
My YouTube Channel
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02-11-2014, 02:12 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
1971 21' Globetrotter
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Arvada
, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,527
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According to your graphic the ends would just be rolled around the edge with aluminum flat stock. The frame "L" angles would have to be shrank to form the radius you desire. If you are looking for the side pieces to radius into the forward and aft ends then you will have to make segmented panels. So a little more detail is needed here as to your intentions.
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02-11-2014, 04:00 PM
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#7
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Rivet Master
2010 25' FB Flying Cloud
Davenport
, Iowa
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,145
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Have you thought of a design similar to the first Airstream that was sold as a kit? This would really look "retro".
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02-11-2014, 06:08 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
1966 22' Safari
1954 22' Flying Cloud
Saline
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 854
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One thing I would do would be make the wheel wells rounded like automobiles have. The 90 degree edges make for wasted space when making access along the side of the trailer.
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02-11-2014, 07:31 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
1957 30' Sovereign of the Road
1959 28' Ambassador
1949 24' Limited
Peru
, New York
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airtandem
Have you thought of a design similar to the first Airstream that was sold as a kit? This would really look "retro".
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Kind of a home built Basecamp?
Colin
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02-12-2014, 08:56 AM
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#10
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2 Rivet Member
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 86
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Great Ideas! Thanks so much to all!
As one poster said… more details. I agree.
The trailer design will have to fulfill some requirements.
a. It has to sleep, Dad, Wife, Kid. The original donor had that bunk they put in the front of some canned hams. We liked that idea for the tot.
b. We live in Austin. 90% of it's life it will be on our property and serve as a guest house/studio. When on the road it will primarily go to two very hot places. The Beach at Port Aransas. Off Grid. And Big Bend National Park… in the fall when it's not so brutal. My point is… Windows! Lot's of them. I already have 6 Jalousie windows from the donor Trailer.I was hoping to use them. And It doesnt look like you can mount them at a "reverse" angle. And the Torpedo looks hot!
I've already bought/designed 30 amp service, small AC, Dickinson P9000 fireplace, Atwood drop in 2 burner stainless stove, propane components and tools, High end Madisound speaker system, Glass Door/stainless mini fridge. And other nicknacks.
So to make a long story short… Considering the small footprint of 10 x 7 I'm still leaning towards the original canned ham shape. Sortofa Modified Boles Aero.
So now, if you don't mind. I have some really basic questions.
I've got the deck. Now what? I assume I build the Frame and then skin it? Is that right?
If that's true. I have many follow up questions about construction. You guys are great.
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02-12-2014, 10:46 AM
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#11
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2 Rivet Member
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 86
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So here is my notes on process. Please let me know if this sounds nuts or just needs tweaking. Thanks!
0. Seal Deck with CPES, penetrating epoxy by smith from Vintage Trailer Supply
1. Build a frame with 1 1/2 inch 1/16 inch thick C channel posts for upward strength and rungs where I need windows/doors. "L" Channel /Angle aluminum for edges, rounded corners, rounded with pie cuts when needed. 1 1/2 by 1/8 thick square aluminum tube for roof beams since I'll have solar panels and possible a Heliatos water panel up there.
2. Attach frame unions with Rivets or using Clecos where I will want to rivet on the skin or exterior moulding later.
Can I use sheet metal screws/bolts for the framing in spots?
2.5 Bolt entire frame to deck with Grade 5 x 1/4inch bolts and big washers through bottom of frame which will be upturned C channel through to outriggers.
3. Place, Pre-drill, de-burr skins. Then run a bead of vulcem under sheets between the line of rivet holes and the edge of the aluminum. Rivet with a helper holding bucking bar where necessary. Whipe off excess vulcem with mineral spirits. Rivet line is all around outside permitter and along horizontal/lateral line where the top and bottom sheets on the side meet.
Do I need MORE rivets in the center somewhere?
How far apart are rivets anyway?
4. Build in a shingled fashion overlapping tops over bottoms to avoid leaks.
5. Edges - 90 degree edges will be L Shaped aluminum angle iron bent with Pie cuts. From bottom to top the union is: Angle Iron aluminum frame, 2024t3 .025 aluminum sheet, vulceam, 90 degree trim molding from where.
Where, what moulding should I use?
6. Windows have C channel interior frames and are riveted on, vulcem everywhere.
7. When finished Vulcem all interior seams and rivets.
8. Water test.
Yay! I'm an ameture!
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02-13-2014, 12:24 PM
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#12
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2 Rivet Member
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 86
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C Channel pricing
I got a local sheet metal shop to make C Channel for me. Wondering if this sounds OK. Price seems good? It's "anodized". EG.. coated, painted. Seems fine to me.
1.5 inches on all three side
.040 - anodized, clear
2.19 a foot
20 x 10 foot pieces = 200 feet total
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02-13-2014, 12:37 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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I don't have any technical suggestions as you're already getting good advice and are making excellent decisions on your own.
I just want to applaud your creativity and initiative to do this.
Please keep us posted as you make progress.
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02-13-2014, 12:53 PM
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#14
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Rivet Master
1966 22' Safari
1954 22' Flying Cloud
Saline
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 854
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That seems ridiculously high to me $220 for 'c' channel is way to much.
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02-13-2014, 02:20 PM
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#15
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2 Rivet Member
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 86
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Drat! I can't even find it online.
All that came close was
https://www.airpartsinc.com/shopexd.asp?id=167
and it's too small a dimension.
I have a new query which I guess I could start here…. Rivet guns. The rivet gun kit from VintageTrailersupply looks geared to 1/8 AND 5/32… since I'm going NEW construction.
I'm guessing I only need 1/8?
I also need a de-burring tool I assume.
I also assume I'll go with Brazier not Universal rivets because I'm sure there is some advantage I don't know about.
So my Rivet buy list would be slightly different. Any input would be appreciated:
I copied this from VTS. What's in RED I would NOT Need. Blue is what I'm adding.
3X Pneumatic Rivet Gun with Beehive Spring & Air Regulator ($149.99)
Rivet Set for Airstream Rivets (1/8" Brazier & 5/32" Modified Brazier) ($10.99)
Bucking Bar ($19.99)
Heavy Duty Rivet Cutter ($39.99)
Marvel Mystery Oil ($2.97) I have pneumatic tool oil
25 Copper 1/8" Clecos ($14.99)
25 Black 5/32" Clecos ($14.99)
Cleco Pliers ($7.99)
2 No.21 Split Point Drill Bits ($4.98)
2 No.30 Split Point Drill Bits ($4.38)
4oz of 1/8 Brazier Head Solid Rivets 1/4" Long [Approx 450 rivets] ($6.99)
4oz of 1/8 Brazier Head Solid Rivets 1/2" Long [Approx 290 rivets] ($6.99)
4oz of 5/32 Modified Brazier Head Solid Rivets 1/4" Long [Approx 340 rivets] ($6.99)
4oz of 5/32 Modified Brazier Head Solid Rivets 3/8" Long [Approx 265 rivets] ($6.99)
4oz of 5/32 Modified Brazier Head Solid Rivets 1/2" Long [Approx 205 rivets] ($6.99)
Deburring tool
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02-13-2014, 03:32 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
1960 33' Custom
Athens
, Georgia
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,373
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I'll have a go. I'd stick with Universal head rivets. I do on my Airstream stuff as it's very close in appearance to brazier and modified brazier but also because it's readily available and the head is more forgiving. Doubly so on your project as there is no originality to keep up.
I'd also get 3/32" or #40 drill bits and Cleco. When you are building a new part you typically want to start with the smallest hole and end up with a perfect #30 to pop that 1/8" rivet in. Just to be more clear say you are making a patch or new skin, you do the layout and drill off at #40, assemble and cleco, check, drill to #30, disassemble, clean up and assemble, check, disassemble, seal and reassemble then rivet. Or something similar that works for you.
I'd also get the intermediate rivet length in 1/8" if that's what you expect to use most.
Hole deburring tools are nice but an old 1/4" drill bit stuffed in a file handle or wrapped up a ton of tape is just fine. Edge duburring tools are also nice but a smooth file is decent too.
The beehive spring is something I have loads of kicking around; I have never seen one used on a gun in aviation, ever. Everyone I have ever worked with has used shock cord tied in a loop at either end, one end over the handle one over the "snap" (snap is a rivet set). I'd say it would be fine in manufacturing to use a beehive if you were shooting just one size rivet and you didn't need to get in tight spots or if you felt the urge to pull the trigger when holding the gun in mid air….
So, just trying to answer you enquiry really but with your list you would also do just great with the addition of the smaller drill bit and clecos.
Separate note but I'd buy a $30 30" metal brake and some .032" aluminum and make my own C channel. It's handy to have for making other little stuff the only snag is you have to cut the aluminum into strips first; and if you do I'd suggest cutting against the grain so you bend against the grain, it'll turn out better and stronger.
__________________
1960 Sovereign 33' Pacific Railroad Custom
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02-14-2014, 09:11 AM
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#18
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2 Rivet Member
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 86
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And do you mean 5/32 clecos? or 3/32 clecos? Nevemind. I found em.
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02-14-2014, 09:29 AM
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#19
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Rivet Master
1960 33' Custom
Athens
, Georgia
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,373
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Silver ones :-)
__________________
1960 Sovereign 33' Pacific Railroad Custom
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02-14-2014, 10:35 AM
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#20
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2 Rivet Member
Austin
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 86
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Silver… got it.
So it sounds like I start with
AN470 Soft Rivets 1/8"D 3/8"L
With a 3.5 inch 1/8 Straight Rivet set
You actually got me thinking silver and it appears all the "AN" rivets are anodized and are brass like finish to start…
I couldn't find "Silver" per se. OH, you mean silver clecos. I misread.
derrrrrr…..
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