The fuel cell experiment

[Burnside Bob]

Knuff, when we met at Kodachrome earlier this month nights were already cool--no thermometer but 20's? Perhaps a missed opportunity to discuss trailer electrical needs--we stayed at Kodachrome because of the electrical hooks ups--no way our non solar trailer could keep up with demands of furnace, refer, and CPAP. We were thinking of installing 400W of solar, but if this is inadequate. . . .

You have Li batteries so I'm assuming these are already under the bed. Any chance the fuel cell would fit in the stock battery box or the space battery box occupies, as this location is already wired and outside for venting??


Bluffs at Kodachrome Basin SP, Cannonville, NM.

[cfishii]

Good luck, I hope it works out well. Just out of curiosity, did you consider batteries fromTesla for your solar power system? May etgeyrtoo large for an AS?

[Knuff]

Originally Posted by Burnside Bob

You have Li batteries so I'm assuming these are already under the bed. Any chance the fuel cell would fit in the stock battery box or the space battery box occupies, as this location is already wired and outside for venting??

Hi Bob, Yes - cold nights at Kodachrome and every other day was cloudy. This was also the reason we opted for the hook ups - we run two small space heaters (Vornado type) when hooked up to save propane. Without the electrical hookup, and using the furnace adds quite a bit to the electrical load - this will be the test later this year (although it won't be as cold in SoCal as in Utah).

I am pretty sure that the Efoy will not fit into the battery box (the fuel cartridge alone is the size of a 2.5G canister). Plus from what I have been reading, the only issues with the box occur when the temp goes below freezing (even with the protection mode). So we plan to keep it in the trailer. I emailed the company asking about high temps (when we camp in the Moab area in the summer, we sometimes have 120F in the trailer) and whether the fuel cell will be having issues (even when shut off). But summer is no issue with our solar so I might even leave the Efoy box at home for these trips.

It was great to chat and to see so many Airstreams at Kodachrome in November

[DRPREECE]

This has peaked my interest and curiosity. I like the idea of a propane fuel cell. The WATT Imperium looks very interesting from a design and output perspective. However, there is little on availability and price. As others have mentioned, may still be in prototype phase. Looking at the dimensions and weight, this could possibly be tongue mounted if it can take the weather.

I sent them a message with a list of questions. We’ll see what their response is.

https://www.wattfuelcell.com

[Knuff]

Originally Posted by cfishii

Good luck, I hope it works out well. Just out of curiosity, did you consider batteries fromTesla for your solar power system? May etgeyrtoo large for an AS?

Good thought but I would not know how. The AM Li-battery system was installed by Avalon RV and Adam at Avalon did a fantastic job, but he used parts that he had experience with.

For the Efoy, because it will be directly wired to the battery, I think that this is more a DIY job because it looks straight forward in the manual.

[BoscoMN]

I can see that you would have to give careful consideration to where you install this Efoy fuel cell as it should not be allowed to get below freezing temperatures unless it is operating or in its automatic antifreeze mode:

"The automatic antifreeze feature only works when the fuel cell is connected to a filled EFOY fuel cartridge and an intact battery. The automatic antifreeze feature does not run if the voltage drops below 9 V and the device is switched off. Please note that the EFOY COMFORT fuel cell must be protected against frost. Repeated freezing may cause irreversible damage to the device.

Operating temperature -20 to +40°C / -4°F to +104°F)
Starting temperature +5 to +40°C / +41°F to +104°F)
Storage temperature +1 to +45°C / +34°F to +113°F) "

I can see where the waste gas exhaust hose is vented would have to be carefully planned for as it cannot freeze during the season/trip as well:

"Take precautions to prevent the exhaust hose from freezing in winter. - Use only the original insulated EFOY waste hose for this purpose. - Keep the insulated exhaust hose as short as possible."

"Avoid inhaling waste gases directly or for extended periods." I would want to have two sensors/alarms to detect any leakage of these gasses into the Airstream.

No better or worse than other power sources - just something to really take the time to read up on, check all of the manufacture's documentation, do your trade analysis, careful design and installation.

[bibbs]

I am so glad to see a fuel cell used this way! I am looking forward to learning more!

[DRPREECE]

Originally Posted by DRPREECE

This has peaked my interest and curiosity. I like the idea of a propane fuel cell. The WATT Imperium looks very interesting from a design and output perspective. However, there is little on availability and price. As others have mentioned, may still be in prototype phase. Looking at the dimensions and weight, this could possibly be tongue mounted if it can take the weather.

I sent them a message with a list of questions. We’ll see what their response is.

https://www.wattfuelcell.com

Received a response from Bob Berger, Director of Sales for WATT Fuel Cell this morning.

Their Imperium unit is presently undergoing certification (UL / ETL) and is expected to complete by the end of 2017. Units will begin production and sale after certification is completed.

I also inquired about the type of LP needed by the unit - gas or liquid vapor. It uses LP gas. So it will run from standard LP tanks.

He made no mention as to the ability to withstand outdoor elements.

I would be surprised if the units are commercially available before June 2018. Even so, unless the price is just stupid, this holds significant promise for the portable power needs of RVs and travel trailers.

With the combination of the advances in solar, battery, and portable power generation technology in the last 5 years, we are looking at a watershed moment in our very near future. One where not only the early adopters can live disconnected from the power grid, but one where the cost of sustainable and reliable energy independence is comparable to the existing utility paradigm. In some perspectives - particularly reliability and resiliency - for many consumers it will be even better.

Exciting times [emoji106]

[trumpetguy]

I received the same response from Watt. Hoping the price is reasonable.

[trumpetguy]

Just heard that the price will be $15,000. Too rich for me.

[DRPREECE]

Originally Posted by trumpetguy

Just heard that the price will be $15,000. Too rich for me.

That definitely falls into the “stupid” level of price. You can buy a whole lot of propane powered generators / solar panels / controllers / lithium batteries for that $$$.

And the payback on a residential application would be well over 10 years.

Somebody has their head up their @$$ if they think they will sell enough to prove and build a market need - let alone a share of that market.

Unless... their target market is the government. Then $15k is about right (sarcasm).

[trumpetguy]

Yep. My Honda 2000 sips propane, runs quiet on eco mode and tops up my batteries in a flash.

[Knuff]

The Efoy 80i is on its way. Just got the tracking numbers for the device and the fuel. Estimated to arrive in a week.

I like the idea to use propane, but 15K is a tough sell. The Efoy is 3K - still steep but the point here is to get some first hand experience.

[randmscooter]

I'm holding out for ZPE.

Seriously though, I can't wait to hear how the fuel cell works out for you.

[Lotus54]

I have a fair amount of experince with Efoy ‘Pro’ fuel cells. We have used them quite a few years on mountaintop radio repeater sites (public safety) for charging when solar panels are covered with snow/rime ice and/or no sun for extended periods of time.

They have worked quite well, no issues.
They are VERY quiet. You could have it inside the passenger compartment and it wouldn’t be bad for sound level at all.

These were at ‘fly to’ sites that were inaccessible in the winter and very expensive (like around $4000) to access when possible. So reliability was prime.

Mark

[Bill M.]

So they do work in cold temperatures?

[jnm30327]

Can you tell me some vendor names that carry these Efoy fuel cells?

[Lotus54]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

So they do work in cold temperatures?

Yes, it is very cold where these are being used. They have an ‘auto heat’ setup to keep from freezing. Plus they now won’t be damaged by freezing.
They do need fresh air and exhaust the CO2, or the chemistry will get goofed up in the stack.


Mark

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Knuff

-- snip -- like the idea to use propane, but 15K is a tough sell. The Efoy is 3K -- snip --

The $15K is insane. Since the $3K is beyond my consideration, learning from your experience is all I can justify.

Thank you for sharing. Pat

[mythbuster88]

Fuel cells, how cool!
But what is the "charge current" spec on the data sheet?