RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-07-2017, 08:47 AM   #61
Rivet Master
 
A W Warn's Avatar

 
2000 25' Safari
1999 34' Excella
Davidson County , NC Highlands County, FL
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdkennedy View Post
snip>>
What I know.
Hydrogen fuel cells are produced by Panasonic and used in Japan as a primary and backup source of power in domestic applications.
snip>>
???
http://news.panasonic.com/global/sto...017/45928.html
__________________
Alan
2014 Silverado LTZ 1500 Crew Cab 5.3L maximum trailering package
A W Warn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 09:22 AM   #62
2 Rivet Member
 
kenen42's Avatar
 
2011 27' FB Flying Cloud
Delmar , New York
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdkennedy View Post
The next step.........
Solar panels split water durring daylight.
Hydrogen is collected and stored in steel tank.
Hydrogen runs fuel cell. This becomes the primary source of power for your home on the road. Byproduct of water is collected to be split again.

What I know.
Hydrogen fuel cells are produced by Panasonic and used in Japan as a primary and backup source of power in domestic applications.

A commercial electrolizer to split water does not seem to be available.

Moving Forward
You can get all the parts you need here, including electrolizers...

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/
kenen42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2017, 07:53 AM   #63
2 Rivet Member
 
2018 27' Flying Cloud
Atlanta , Georgia
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 79
I would be very concerned with the efficiency of these distilled water hydrolyzers and hydrogen fuel cell combinations. That is, the yield from the unit compared to a lithium or lead acid battery. How much of the available energy from a solar panel is available as electricity at the end?

Does anyone know?

Another issue is the leakage of hydrogen from any storage vessel. Hydrogen is a vary small molecule in its normal H2 form. It can leak from most anything. If you did not use the hydrogen very soon after production, you would undoubtedly leak some.

So, what is the overall efficiency compared to storage in a lithium or lead acid battery?
jnm30327 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2017, 08:29 AM   #64
2 Rivet Member
 
2016 26' Flying Cloud
Spooner , Wisconsin
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 51
Thanks, Knuff, for cutting a path in this wilderness. This is a question from a eeal tenderfoot. We have 26U with twin AC units. I can run one on a 30 amp connection and both with 50 amp, none on a 15 amp or off my batteries (2 12 v).

Your solar and soon fuel cell is, as I understand it , charging the batteries which in turn provide 12 v to your AS. Are you not running you AC with this or is there some trick to running AC off the 12 v batteries?

We have a wild wooded 40 on which Id like to park for a couple weeks at a time. So Im starting from scratch and the fuel cell looks competitive against a solar setup and running a connection to the grid to my camp. And the FC would be portable.

Thanks for your exploration and reports.
WherryWillie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2017, 10:42 AM   #65
Registered User
 
2016 25' Flying Cloud
Fairfield , California
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 903
WherryWillie, the a/c unit uses very large amounts of electrical power e.g. amps or watts, and runs on 120volts. This formula is a must to remember - watts=amps*volts. The reason why is your batteries are 12 volts with a stock capacity of around 80amps. In addition, the two charging systems, solar and fuel cell, are also 12 volt systems that charge at around 8amps an hour.

You need to convert (proper term is invert) your 12v into 120v with sufficient power to run your a/c.
This is where the formula and the stock 1000 watt inverter comes into play.

A single a/c unit uses about 3,400 watts(= 30amps * 120v) to start and around 1200watts (=10amps * 120v) an hour to run. Now lets convert the above to 12 volts. 3,400w (=284amps * 12v) to start and 1,200w (=100amps * 12v) an hour to run.
As you can see there are two very big limitations here in a stock AS set up.
Your stock 1,000w inverter (converts the 12v to 120v) and your 80amp capacity batteries are too small. You cannot convert enough power and your batteries don't have enough capacity, they would be drained flat in very quickly. 100amp an hour draw against a 85amp capacity. Add to that as stated earlier, you are only putting in 8amps an hour using the charging systems discussed.

It is possible to run the a/c not using shore power, but there needs to be some serious upgrades in capacity.
(Disclaimer - for the sake of simplicity I did leave out a lot of fine details, e.g wiring capacity and Peukerts law)
Mattirs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2017, 10:14 PM   #66
worried...happy...wo...ha
 
Knuff's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB International
Menlo Park , California
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 210
Images: 3
We use evaporative coolers for our Airstream. Started with a MightyCool, which worked well during our Westfalia years. Now we added a Culer cooler and a 12V large fan. The evaporative coolers run on 12V. Works fine up to 90 degrees, but of course cannot fight extreme temps.
Knuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2017, 09:43 PM   #67
Rivet Master
 
1988 32' Excella
Robbinsville , New Jersey
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuff View Post
We use evaporative coolers for our Airstream. Started with a MightyCool, which worked well during our Westfalia years. Now we added a Culer cooler and a 12V large fan. The evaporative coolers run on 12V. Works fine up to 90 degrees, but of course cannot fight extreme temps.
Also doesn't work well in high humidity.
Wazbro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2017, 09:06 AM   #68
worried...happy...wo...ha
 
Knuff's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB International
Menlo Park , California
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 210
Images: 3
Installed!
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1500.JPG
Views:	137
Size:	388.5 KB
ID:	301252

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1501.JPG
Views:	150
Size:	308.4 KB
ID:	301253

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1505.JPG
Views:	142
Size:	246.0 KB
ID:	301254

We are hitting the road in 1h, system has been running over night and has produced about 36Amp hours, as expected. The charge current fluctuated between 2.8 and 3.3 Amps.

More if there is connection in the desert; if not, Ill report after our return.
Knuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2017, 01:44 AM   #69
4 Rivet Member
 
1986 34.5' Airstream 345
Alliance , Ohio
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 250
Looks like a neat install. Keep us updated on your experience. Safe travels.
mehes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2017, 12:17 PM   #70
Rivet Master
 
SuperTrouper's Avatar

 
2008 27' International FB
Petaluma , California
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 807
Images: 5
Very cool thread! I’m following along and happy that there’s an alternative to gas gennys to augment my solar. Interested to know if the output voltage is adjustable as we may move to lithium this year which likes a higher charge voltage. Keep the pictures and story comin’!
SuperTrouper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 08:17 PM   #71
worried...happy...wo...ha
 
Knuff's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB International
Menlo Park , California
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 210
Images: 3
13 days without hookup (6 in Anza Borrego SP and 7 in Death Valley) and I can report a couple of things.

First of all, we had very little sun. Our site in Anza Borrego was fully in shade because of a hill from 1:30PM onwards. In Death Valley, we had site #58, which is highly rated for the shade provided by one of the few trees - a good thing in the summer, but not perfect for solar. So overall, the best scenario for testing our fuel cell setup.

Other observations in bullet points:

we used about ⅔ (1.8G) of methanol.
the fuel cell hums and we did only run it once over night.
our energy consumption is much higher than I previously stated (wrong estimate) - we use in total about 70-80Amps.
the battery rarely went below 70% (our system is calibrated for the 200Ah battery and it tells us: a) the current draw (or charge) in amps, and b) the amount of amps from full. So with a fully charged battery we have, in theory, 200Ah at 100%.

Shown below is a typical scenario for pretty much 11 of the 13 days:

9:13AM - battery is 43Ah from full (watching TV at night, plus the fridge - despite running on propane - draws about 1amp/h, other leaching devices add about 0.6amps/h)
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1515.jpg
Views:	85
Size:	220.0 KB
ID:	302054

11:49AM - battery is 29Ah from full
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1517.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	258.9 KB
ID:	302056

Solar is lousy - 1.7A charge current
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1516.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	255.9 KB
ID:	302055

BUT fuel call PLUS solar (minus fridge etc draws) produces 3.8A charge current:
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1518.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	252.5 KB
ID:	302057

Usually, at night (6PM), the battery was >90% charged. On three days, we made it up to 100%.

Only on one night, we only made it back to 85% charge (about 30Ah from full); here we decided to run the fuel cell over night. We started the morning at 10Ah from fuel and caught up to 100% at about mid day.

I also noticed that the Efoy was producing 3.0A at maximum - it mostly lingered at 2.9A. This means that in 24h, the maximum Ah output from the Efoy80 is 24x2.9 = 70Ah.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1508.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	191.6 KB
ID:	302058


So, overall, running the fuel cell from wake up time (about 7AM) until bedtime (around 10PM) was pretty much giving us a free mind about our battery charge situation. We were attentive about our electricity use but we did not conserve energy. We had the inverter running from about 7PM until 11PM with one or sometimes both TVs, plus the Apple TV. We used the Keurig or Nespresso coffee makers 3-4 times during the days. The furnace was running only in the early morning hours (usually from 5AM until 7AM).

Is this setup good for everyone? Probably it depends on your habits and the climate. For Western US camping, the Efoy80 is certainly sufficient as an add-on to a good solar system during the winter months. If running the furnace is required for most of the night, I probably would look into the Efoy140 or 210 models, which produce more power. But then the methanol consumption is probably going to go up and hauling multiple 10 liter cartridges of methanol is probably not very convenient (and expensive). For us, I believe that we found a good winter setup.
Knuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 12:13 AM   #72
worried...happy...wo...ha
 
Knuff's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB International
Menlo Park , California
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 210
Images: 3
Forgot the "end of day" image for 12/26.
8Ah short for this day.
Solar was "ok" in the morning hours until about 1:30, but thereafter pretty non-existent.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1532.jpg
Views:	73
Size:	231.6 KB
ID:	302075
Knuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 06:55 AM   #73
Rivet Master
 
SuperTrouper's Avatar

 
2008 27' International FB
Petaluma , California
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 807
Images: 5
This is perfect for us. I’m starting to save for this system today! Thanks for the detailed report. - Brad
SuperTrouper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 07:55 AM   #74
Rivet Master
 
SuperTrouper's Avatar

 
2008 27' International FB
Petaluma , California
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 807
Images: 5
Knuff,

I have a question. Given that you have about the same set up as me (400W solar and Blue Sky charging system) how do you set the 3000i and EFOY voltage out? I'm planning on upgrading from 220 AH Lifeline to 300AH LiFo Battle Born batteries soon and I know that LiFo's like a higher charge voltage ( 14.4) for absorption. Is that adjustable on the EFOY? - Brad
SuperTrouper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 11:53 PM   #75
worried...happy...wo...ha
 
Knuff's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB International
Menlo Park , California
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 210
Images: 3
Hi Brad,

I wired the Efoy directly to the battery and it is currently set to "automatic" where it kicks in when the voltage drops below 13.1V for longer than 3 minutes. At 13.6V it stops charging (these are my empirically chosen settings). My batteries somehow max out at 13.6. This said, you can change all kinds of parameters on the Efoy but I don't remember that there is an option to change the voltage out. I should have looked at the Blue Sky remote and noted the voltage out when the fuel cell was charging and solar was at zero. Can do this on our next trip.

Efoy markets their system to work with "approved" Li batteries, but I found that their service team out of Germany was quite responsive to questions so they might be able to provide an answer whether the voltage can be set. Our batteries are probably not specifically listed on their approved list because their experience is mostly limited to the European market, but I could be wrong. Actually, I never asked and just installed the system...
Knuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 08:23 AM   #76
Rivet Master
 
SuperTrouper's Avatar

 
2008 27' International FB
Petaluma , California
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 807
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuff View Post
Hi Brad,


Efoy markets their system to work with "approved" Li batteries, but I found that their service team out of Germany was quite responsive to questions so they might be able to provide an answer whether the voltage can be set. Our batteries are probably not specifically listed on their approved list because their experience is mostly limited to the European market, but I could be wrong. Actually, I never asked and just installed the system...
Never-mind. I found the operating manual and it details these default and max/min settings on page 87. THANKS!

https://www.efoy-comfort.com/sites/d..._en_170306.pdf
SuperTrouper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dash color experiment dadstoy Classic Motorhomes 12 11-07-2011 11:09 AM
A $24 Experiment in Weight Distribution Streamside Hitches, Couplers & Balls 3 04-05-2010 09:47 AM
Yellow Wall experiment ALANSD General Interior Topics 45 11-17-2009 08:53 PM
Hensley To Equal-i-zer Hitch Experiment DreamStream Hitches, Couplers & Balls 71 04-08-2009 10:26 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.