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NorCal Bambi · 03-08-2010, 10:07 PM

Our Online Shop
This is his website. Learn the Art of Traditional Sheet metal Work.
Bodywork Restoration Tutorial
I'd like to know what you think after looking at the web site.
Don

JFerguson · 03-09-2010, 07:34 AM

Hi Don,

I was wading through this thread when I came across a weight and balance question:

"I am not a math person. And I often wish I was. My bigest question is how does one make all these weight and placement changes and keep the tongue weight in the right envelope. I would be willing to learn the math, if there is someone out there who would be willing to share formulas and the time."

To my mind an Airstream is essentially a big lever. The wheels are the fulcrum. This link has a calculator that can help you determine the weight and balance of your layout.

http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/levers/page_levers_1.htm

Hope this helps people out. By the way I am a newbie so if I am way off base here let me know.

NorCal Bambi · 03-09-2010, 08:55 AM

JFerguson, You are right on. I've been asking myself this question. Several years ago I was pulling a car trailer with a pickup truck on the trailer. We had loaded the truck with the truck facing backwards. This put the weight on the trailer in the wrong place. We were crossing a bridge on the San Francisco Bay. When the wind decided to teach a lesson. To keep this short. I knew I was in deep trouble when I could read the sigh painted on the door of the truck on the trailer in my rear view mirror. All traffic slammed on their brakes. I was luck and got our vehicle stopped in the middle of the bridge. When I looked around there was not another car on the bridge. Both lanes of traffic had seen the event begin and stopped their cars. By the time I'd got my vehicle under control the bridge was clear of traffic.
I was very lucky!!! The lesson of this story. Weight and balance is most important. Tongue weight is the key. Maybe their should be a special thread with "How to manage Tongue Weight- Weight and Balance. Thanks for the great heads up.
Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFerguson

Hi Don,

I was wading through this thread when I came across a weight and balance question:

"I am not a math person. And I often wish I was. My bigest question is how does one make all these weight and placement changes and keep the tongue weight in the right envelope. I would be willing to learn the math, if there is someone out there who would be willing to share formulas and the time."

To my mind an Airstream is essentially a big lever. The wheels are the fulcrum. This link has a calculator that can help you determine the weight and balance of your layout.

http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/levers/page_levers_1.htm

Hope this helps people out. By the way I am a newbie so if I am way off base here let me know.

Xbob2 · 03-09-2010, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi

Our Online Shop
This is his website. Learn the Art of Traditional Sheet metal Work.
Bodywork Restoration Tutorial
I'd like to know what you think after looking at the web site.
Don

Thanks Don ... as a kid, I always wanted to know how stuff was made. I usually got the answer "by a machine" ... I think to shut me up and hide the fact that my parents didn't know. Thats why I love these kinds of instructional videos but I realize that the guy with 30+ years experience makes it look easier than it would be for me.
Bought the DVD ...
Bob

NorCal Bambi · 03-09-2010, 09:12 AM

Howdy Bob, You are right on about the guy making it look easy. I don't have 30 years of experience doing what he's doing. And I don't have 30 years left to learn. But that has never stopped me before. I'm having some luck with his technique. I've added a step to the process of using the "spoon" to work out the dents. I've taped a large sheet of clear heavy plastic sheet over the work area. It keeps the Aluminum free of the scratches during the process. I know I probably won't get a perfect surface. But It will be better that what I started with. If you like I could put some pictures on to show what progress I'm having.
Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xbob2

Thanks Don ... as a kid, I always wanted to know how stuff was made. I usually got the answer "by a machine" ... I think to shut me up and hide the fact that my parents didn't know. Thats why I love these kinds of instructional videos but I realize that the guy with 30+ years experience makes it look easier than it would be for me.
Bought the DVD ...
Bob

Xbob2 · 03-09-2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi

Howdy Bob, You are right on about the guy making it look easy. I don't have 30 years of experience doing what he's doing. And I don't have 30 years left to learn. But that has never stopped me before. I'm having some luck with his technique. I've added a step to the process of using the "spoon" to work out the dents. I've taped a large sheet of clear heavy plastic sheet over the work area. It keeps the Aluminum free of the scratches during the process. I know I probably won't get a perfect surface. But It will be better that what I started with. If you like I could put some pictures on to show what progress I'm having.
Don

You have to ASK if anybody wants to see pictures? Heck yeah!

I bet EVERYBODY wants to see pictures!
Bob

NorCal Bambi · 03-09-2010, 09:53 AM

This is the dents on the rear curb side of my trailer. These are the dents I'm working on to begin with. The first part is to study the dent and decide where the damage started. Two thoughts on that. One a PO was backing up and ran into some shrubs. And or someone was pushing the trailer by hand and creased the metal by pushing it inward. The creases in the metal indicate the result of a "poping in" force. I'd be interested in anyone else having a thought about what caused these dents. How the dents were formed and the direction of force is the first step in dent removal. I'll include some more pictures on my progress this evening.
Don

Xbob2 · 03-09-2010, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi

This is the dents on the rear curb side of my trailer. These are the dents I'm working on to begin with. The first part is to study the dent and decide where the damage started. Two thoughts on that. One a PO was backing up and ran into some shrubs. And or someone was pushing the trailer by hand and creased the metal by pushing it inward. The creases in the metal indicate the result of a "poping in" force. I'd be interested in anyone else having a thought about what caused these dents. How the dents were formed and the direction of force is the first step in dent removal. I'll include some more pictures on my progress this evening.
Don

Looks like one big dent in and many hits from the inside trying to bang out the dent out ... does the damage reach the end cap? Does the guy on the DVD show how to shrink aluminum?
Bob

NorCal Bambi · 03-09-2010, 11:58 AM

Here are two photos on the dent work. The first is the original series of dents. The second is the work done on the dents so far. Apx. 3 hours work. There are some other area in this work section I'll show soon. I've tried to use lighting that magnifies the dents. This is helpful in the evaluation of the dent.
Xbob, yes the video talks about shrinking. Basically that is done by working the metal. I believe that is because aluminum is a metal that works easily.

Also the next series of photo will show some errors I've made so far and what I think is needed to prevent these problems.
Don
Always open for comments and input from others in this forum.
If you haven't discovered this yet. If you click on the pictures that are posted, you will get an enlargement.

VIKING · 03-09-2010, 03:13 PM

I knew an expert autobody man when I was just a little Viking, 10 years old. He would use a lead hammer and shaped dies to return sheetmetal to its original shape. Stretching and shrinking is also done on auto bodies, but its necessary to get to both sides of the part at the same time or have a helper with ESP so he can put the die in exactly the right place for you to hit it. Most bodywork done now is "cut & paste". The art has mostly gone out of the bodywork profession it seems.
Rich the Viking

Xbob2 · 03-09-2010, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi

Here are two photos on the dent work. The first is the original series of dents. The second is the work done on the dents so far. Apx. 3 hours work. There are some other area in this work section I'll show soon. I've tried to use lighting that magnifies the dents. This is helpful in the evaluation of the dent.
Xbob, yes the video talks about shrinking. Basically that is done by working the metal. I believe that is because aluminum is a metal that works easily.

Also the next series of photo will show some errors I've made so far and what I think is needed to prevent these problems.
Don
Always open for comments and input from others in this forum.
If you haven't discovered this yet. If you click on the pictures that are posted, you will get an enlargement.

Wow! The improvement is striking!

NorCal Bambi · 03-09-2010, 06:05 PM

Rich, you are so correct about the cut an paste approach to things. One of the thinks I have enjoyed about the forums is there seems to still be a group of people who pride them selves in the Artistic approach. The competition of business today makes cut and paste a necessity. A good example is the TV program "Overhaulin" Foose and his teams are rear artisans in the modern sense. However when time is the essence a new part is used. I am an artist, and that's my fault, and I dream that someday in the future I will get to run my hand over the shell of the 55 with pride.
Maybe the "ART" has always been up to the individual.
Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIKING

I knew an expert autobody man when I was just a little Viking, 10 years old. He would use a lead hammer and shaped dies to return sheetmetal to its original shape. Stretching and shrinking is also done on auto bodies, but its necessary to get to both sides of the part at the same time or have a helper with ESP so he can put the die in exactly the right place for you to hit it. Most bodywork done now is "cut & paste". The art has mostly gone out of the bodywork profession it seems.
Rich the Viking

FC7039 · 03-09-2010, 06:05 PM

Written prior to Don's previous post. But it is a point to those who are freshly starting to do a restore.

I know (or think) that you are working the dent as a challange. You are working a flat panel that is easily (relative) to replace.

I have thought about this many of times. Is it better, cheaper, less time consuming to just buy and replace aluminum than it is to scape paint, buff and repaint?

In this case, minus all the fun of learning and accomplishment, if you were to analyze the work and effort and the final product compared to a fresh sheet of aluminum, is it worth it? This is not really a cut and dry question. More of a sit around and have a drink and talk about it type thing. (at least to me)

NorCal Bambi · 03-09-2010, 06:08 PM

FC7039, I know you are right. My wife says I have a problem. I'm sure she is correct.
Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by FC7039

I know (or think) that you are working the dent as a challange. You are working a flat panel that is easily (relative) to replace.

I have thought about this many of times. Is it better, cheaper, less time consuming to just buy and replace aluminum than it is to scape paint, buff and repaint?

In this case, minus all the fun of learning and accomplishment, if you were to analyze the work and effort and the final product compared to a fresh sheet of aluminum, is it worth it? This is not really a cut and dry question. More of a sit around and have a drink and talk about it type thing. (at least to me)

FC7039 · 03-09-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi

FC7039, I know you are right. My wife says I have a problem. I'm sure she is correct.
Don

If wifes knew what was right, would we be married?

Let me add that there is nothing wrong in taking on a challange, both mentally and physically. The easy way out may not be the fun (expanded definition here) way.

NorCal Bambi · 03-09-2010, 06:14 PM

I can only respect a man who speaks the truth. You have my respect.
Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by FC7039

If wifes knew what was right, would we be married?

VIKING · 03-09-2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FC7039

If wifes knew what was right, would we be married?

I have nothing to add, I just wanted to see this come up again, in case anyone missed it!

Aerowood · 03-10-2010, 07:59 AM

Don, I removed a 18" crease on one of my panel segments using the roller tool shown below. I also used lead shot bags as a backup while using spoons and dollys. I had to shrink some areas that were stretched using the same method as used on steel. I did some practice shrinking on some scrap aluminum first. Although not perfect you really have to look to see the repair. Most people don't even notice that the panel had a nasty sharp crease. I made this tool.

Kip

NorCal Bambi · 03-10-2010, 08:14 AM

Aerowood, great to hear that there is someone else out there who had attacked Aluminum Body work. The tool looks great. I had wondered about using a method of this sort. Is you tool make from parts you built on a lathe or are some of them found? Did you buy a shot bag or make it? I'd be interested in more details.
Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerowood

Don, I removed a 18" crease on one of my panel segments using the roller tool shown below. I also used lead shot bags as a backup while using spoons and dollys. I had to shrink some areas that were stretched using the same method as used on steel. I did some practice shrinking on some scrap aluminum first. Although not perfect you really have to look to see the repair. Most people don't even notice that the panel had a nasty sharp crease. I made this tool.

Kip