Help Me Avoid Buyers Remorse

[teksmith]

First time A/S buyer here. I am looking at a 2004 22' International CCD in very good condition. The seller is asking $34k for the trailer. I was planning on offering him $28k, and from my discussions I think he would accept.
My problem is I have been doing too much research and I am starting to convince myself that $28k may be too high. I have recently seen a 2006 22' CCD go for about $34k (Colonial Airstream). Additionally the NADA guide books the '04 out at about $22k. I know the NADA guide is not gospel, but it books the '06 out at about $34k (which is what it sold for).
I have been shopping this for about a year and it is clear the uses A/S market for smaller sized trailers is almost nonexistent.
Some people say the market is getting softer due to the current economy while others say it is heating up because the Boomers are retiring and want to travel.
What does this community think? Does $28k seem fair for an 2004? I think the floorplans were much improved is 2006 (dry bath, no hump under table, etc), but I can live with the 2004 limitations. I would find it hard to live with the fact that I overpaid by $6k.

Please don't reply with "...if the trailer works for you then the price is fair.." type answer. I am really looking for some more meaningful, financially based input. Thanks in advance.

[wbrownrr]

We bought our 2002 22' CCD when it was two years old (in 2004) and paid $25,000 for it from a private party. It was in excellent condition. Of course, the price new for a 2002 was less than the 2004 model you are considering, but I feel that $25,000 was a fair price for our AS. We really like the 22' CCD floorplan (it works very well for the two of us) and found that used 22' CCDs were fairly difficult to find, especially within reasonable driving distance from our home. So..... It seems to me that something in the $25,000 to $28,000 range is reasonable for a three year old 22' CCD, assuming it is in excellent condition. Hope this is helpful.

[overlander63]

NADA and other guides use a percentage per year depreciation for their guides. This is fine when you are dealing with equipment that will be at the end of its useful life @10 years, when NADA has depreciated the equipment to 0. As we all know, Airstreams have a longer useful life than that, so their depreciation is extended over a longer period than most guides allow for.
If you calculate depreciation over 15 years, you get closer to actual value. This is also why the asking price is skewed higher.

[flitzwhopper]

We were in your shoes two years ago. We weren't sure that we would like camping with a trailer. We do - in fact we wonder now why we didn't get a trailer before. We were going from a new 25FB to a vintage. We decided to get vintage unit and if we didn't like it, we could sell it for what we bought it for. We bought an Argosy 24. Best thing we ever did. Total sunk cost is $6500 including all of the accessories (black water tote alongs, generator, new propane bottles etc.). Everything works, hot water heater, furnace, plumbing air conditioner and running gear. We've been on a bunch of three day trips and one long one. No problems, easy to tow and big fun. For what it is worth...

[RIstream'n]

Originally Posted by teksmith

First time A/S buyer here. I am looking at a 2004 22' International CCD in very good condition. The seller is asking $34k for the trailer. I was planning on offering him $28k, and from my discussions I think he would accept.
My problem is I have been doing too much research and I am starting to convince myself that $28k may be too high. I have recently seen a 2006 22' CCD go for about $34k (Colonial Airstream). Additionally the NADA guide books the '04 out at about $22k. I know the NADA guide is not gospel, but it books the '06 out at about $34k (which is what it sold for).
I have been shopping this for about a year and it is clear the uses A/S market for smaller sized trailers is almost nonexistent.
Some people say the market is getting softer due to the current economy while others say it is heating up because the Boomers are retiring and want to travel.
What does this community think? Does $28k seem fair for an 2004? I think the floorplans were much improved is 2006 (dry bath, no hump under table, etc), but I can live with the 2004 limitations. I would find it hard to live with the fact that I overpaid by $6k.

Please don't reply with "...if the trailer works for you then the price is fair.." type answer. I am really looking for some more meaningful, financially based input. Thanks in advance.

Books are guides that's all. If you can go find the 06 you like better for $34-$35k then do it. If not then work out a deal on the 04. Who says he wouldn't take less. Also keep in mind that the books ballpark condition. If one 04 has been owned by a smoker with 5 big dogs and there is odor that will never come out vs. a perfect one owner, well kept unit that looks and smells new which one do you want? Would you pay more for the perfect one? Well according to NADA they have the same book value. Just a thought....

[Darol Ingalls]

I agree with Mike. Of course, I've never been in a position to spend $28K on a toy. Compare the advantages of vintage to "newer" and the cost savings on purchase can certainly be huge and allow some "fixes" to be made. Just for fun, think of this: there is currently an '86 Rolls Royce Silver Phantom with 25K miles for sale in Portland, OR for $34K, the same as your seller's asking price for the Airstream. Not very comparable, but I think I'd rather have the Rolls! Darol

[2airishuman]

hi teksmith and welcome to the forums...

how do you intend to use the trailer?

will it remain mostly in florida and the ultra-humid, wet southeast?

the model in question is one of the 3-4 that are on my 'do not buy' list...

at any typical price.

as i recall, this unit has an osb floor not the more water tolerant plywood. this could be a problem where u live.

also the carry capacity is really really small and the bed is a problem.

you may see more of the 22s available in the small/used market than other sizes...

and there are reasons for this.

this isn't the type of answer u r soliciting but imo the price is secondary on this model, and u did ask about 'buyers remorse'.

now i realize many folks love there 22s and IF one lives in the arid southwest or only plans short trips...

it might be ideal 4 ya,

but of all of the newer sizes/models available this one has a very high potential for problems...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f142...-04s-7106.html

i'll duck and cover now

cheers
2air'

[ArtStream]

Hi Techsmith.

I'm with 2air on this on e.

" as i recall, this unit has an osb floor not the more water tolerant plywood. this could be a problem where u live."

I've seen this unit first hand at the Airstream factory, the owner looking for floor replacement. The sag and spring was very bad. Seems they also should have placed one more cross-member in the frame.

Also, which windows does this unit have?

Your ball.

Michael

[teksmith]

This is all good feedback and pretty much exactly what I was looking for. I appreciate it. I plan to use the trailer in FL. Probably short trips, 3-5 days, at first, but I want to be able to opt for longer trips. I am not sure what kind of windows, the ad is not real descriptive (a pic is attached). I am going to see the trailer tomorrow so I should have more data. I am beginning to think that this might not be the one to buy.

[2airishuman]

take a camera, but keep it stowed till the end.

bounce around on the floor inside....

stand in the shower.

try to 'make' the bed...

lay down on it 2! try sitting on the john...

turn EVERYTHING ON, including the a/c.

open every door and every locked outside compartment...

DON'T BE SHY about this, it's your coin...

raise the vents and windows and run the water pump...

take a ladder and check out the top, looking of gaps/cracked sealant or plastic bits in decay...

open the awning, it you don't know how, have the owner do it...

inspect the battery and connectors. crank up the bat wing!

look closely for corrosion on all the exterior trim, liight bezels, wheels and trailer skin...

check the tires, including air pressure!

then when you've taken off the gloves and put away the k-y jelly,

grab a batch of photos of any and all issues to look over later and share here...

cheers
2air'

[CanoeStream]

Originally Posted by teksmith

I am not sure what kind of windows, the ad is not real descriptive (a pic is attached).

Those are the good windows to have -- hinged at the top, full opening. Note a couple things at the dinette -- intrusion of the wheelwell on the dinette space and the window closest to the door can't be left open or you risk smashing it when wind catches the door. We sure love to camp with friends or have our grown children tent at the site -- seating 4 at dinnertime is hard to do without.

I'll double the vote against the OSB floors used in these early 22' Int'l Airstreams -- hard to confirm unless you really get deep into spaces under cabinets. Chronic leaks will be bad with a plywood floor but OSB turns to mush too easily. Quoting theVAP.com guys and Jim & Susan's signature -- "They all leak" at some time or the other.

[Silvertwinkie]

I have been hearing that there have been some frame issues with the 22 foot units. I no longer think they are even being offered. Airstream now has a 20 and 23 foot unit. I would shy away from the 22 foot unit. I heard they had a frame kit for those units. I am going from memory here (which is not all that great), so I'd do a bit more research before offering anything for that 22 footer. My opinion is that I would look for a good 23 foot unit, as it nearly matches what you are looking for and I have not heard about any frame issues with that unit.

I also seem to recall that some of the 22' line at one time did not have 2 batteries and had electric tank heaters compared to the rest of the fleet. Additionally, I seem to recall the 22' had a "wet" bath, which was one of the many turn offs for us going w/ the 22' and at the time, the next size up was the 25. Had the 23' been around back in 2004, it may have swayed my decision.

Back then though, it was 16, 19, 22 then 25 and we went to the 25.

[teksmith]

2air,
Based on your first post, it really doesn't matter if all that stuff works as the '04 has design flaws (ie. osb floor and missing cross-member). Are you saying if all that stuff works, it might a reasonable buy?
I am going to look hard at this trailer and if it has an osb floor I think it is a deal killer.

[Chuckc]

I purchased a new 25' Safari in 1999. I purchased it to retire and live in (yeah, I know there not sold for permenant living). I lived in it for about 4 years and found many serious problems. I just didn't have the time to give it up to the dealer. However, I should warn you to carefully check out the plumbing, I was shocked to see the quality of the plumbing in a product that is supposed to be the top of the line.

The wood work is third world in my estimation. I have decided if I keep my trailer I will have to spend many grand gutting and replacing the particle board with real wood.

The propane piping looks like it was done by an amateur. Pipes are not curved but bent with kinks, etc. Actually the only thing about the trailer I really like is the shape and outside skin.

Just be very circumspect about the hidden items.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by teksmith

has design flaws (ie. osb floor and missing cross-member).

If you are talking about the frame issue, that alone would make me walk. There are so many units out there that can be had for about the same price. It's just a matter of being at the right place at the right time.

The OSB flooring in this unit, if it does in fact have OSB would be the least of my concerns given what I've heard about the 22' units and the fact that they just disappeard with the 23 being the replacement.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by teksmith

...Are you saying if all that stuff works, it might a reasonable buy?...

no, not for me.

but YOU n other new buyers, need learn how 2 inspect and develop a critical a/s eye...

without paying for the education.

the only way to acquire that is to practice some orderly process...

instead of being blinded by the shine!

you've been shopping for a year, but how many trailers have you gone over?

much like buying a house, there may be an immediate emotional response, good or bad.

but it's important to note that 'feeling' and then get on with the exam.

IF a newbie has not spend any/much time in an a/s, each look improves the understanding of personal trailer needs.

i'm 99.9% sure all of these have osb flooring.

there were only 2 models that got osb in 2004, this one and the 16s?

i think the argument a/s used for the 16 was that the ENTIRE FLOOR could be made from one piece of osb board...

which supposedly made it stiff, but the WET ISSUE still isn't addressed by this.

the happy owners of 22s need to chime in here too

cheers
2air'

here are some other related threads, post 37 on in this one...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f365...bed-20767.html

and both of these in full. interpret for your self, this last thread.

you can SEE the osb/chip board in the first photos here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...bad-33396.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f292...ime-31954.html

[teksmith]

I am really beginnging to get cold feet on ever buying an Airstream. It really sounds like once you get past the cool looking skin, the product basically sucks. Too bad. I am going to look at this one tomorrow but I doubt I will pull the trigger.

[juel]

In defense of Airstream I want to say that the vintage Airstream/Argosy trailers can't be beat. I have a 78 Argosy, and a 76 31ft Sovereign that I think should last another 50 years if taken reasonable care of. They both pull wonderfully, have plywood floors, don't seem to be leaking now or in the past (and I have had the carpet out), have good propane systems, good 12V systems, good plumbing with a few repairs and give us many hours of enjoyment. I know vintage comes with special needs, but for $28K to $34K, you could have a professional make a vintage unit spectacular.

[rettoc625]

TechSmith we bought our 2003 22' CCD last August for $22500 this price included a new custom cover the seller paid $1000 for. I know it is not polite to talk money in sophisticated circles, but I think $35K is WAY too much money and $28K is high too, BUT, the bank thought we paid too much money as well! We 'lucked out' and bought this from a private party who had it advertised on ebay for much more. The trailer was located just 50 miles from us. I have not seen any other privately owned newer AS locally since our purchase, and I have seen very few vintage trailers in my neck of the woods.

We are the third owner of our unit and I don't think it has been abused or mistreated. It had a couple minor problems (broken frig knob, leak at the antenna, tiny black tank leak, small scratch in clear coat) but overall it is in very nice shape. We were advised to be careful with the stablizers because we were told over cranking could crack the frame. The wet bath is not so bad. My 6 ft husband sits down to take a shower and I have no problem standing up. We have been in new trailers with a dry shower and separate toilet and found them to be very cramped compared to the extra space you have with the wet shower. The PO installed a boat mat in the shower which keeps your feet out of the wet during routine use and we always use a squeege or shammey after showers to keep the space dry. We also have a microwave/convection oven that can only be used with power, I think now I would prefer a gas oven and no microwave, but that's what came with the used trailer.

We have been in a number of new AS at RV shows and each size has its drawbacks, none are perfect. The thing I dislike most about the 22' CCD is the desk - I think it is silly and would prefer a couch or settee. Yes the bed is awkward and tight, but so is the corner double bed you find in many larger models. Smaller units can't accommodate a queen size walk around bed.

Lots of people will tell you to avoid large trailers from the 70s because of rear end separation, others will say don't buy something old that doesn't have a gray water tank. As for comments about AS not making this size model anymore, all product lines change over time and there are many models that are no longer manufactured. If you ask the forum which is the perfect AS you will get 15,000 answers. And don't forget to factor in your tow vehicle - what can it handle? Will you need to upgrade if you buy a larger trailer?

If you like the 22'ft CCD and it works for your family, buy it. Just negotiate a better price.

Mary

[Darol Ingalls]

2air is right - you need to educate yourself by actually looking at several Airstreams of various ages. I've sold 4 Airstreams in the last 5 years, all to people who had never owned an Airstream. As we talked, I realized they had not looked at any other Airstreams. I suggested they do just that before buying, but only one did. Of course, he came back after he saw what a couple others looked like, but at least he looked. Airstreams are one of those rare things where age doesn't matter as much as condition. There are BAD older trailers and some not-so-good new trailers. Being able to tell the difference only comes from looking and asking the right questions. Darol