Has Airstream Put the "Nail In The Coffin" for WBCCI? - or NOT

[bryanl]

The question of undo influence in our Club is one of degree, not kind and certainly not criminality! And the question the membership is faced with because of the Name Change is how much control do we want THOR to have over our organization.

The WBCCI very definitely has rules and ethical guidelines. And it operates under laws and regulations, too. Read the Blue Book lately? The guidelines I cited? The Ohio statutes? IRS publications about donations and gifts?

Why do you think Thor has control or influence over WBCCI? Is it because they place limits on the use of their intellectual property (trademarks,etc)? Or is it because the WBCCI chooses to use ownership of Airstream RV's as a criteria of membership?

As far as the WBCCI Constitution, it has no reference to Thor and the references to Airstream only include the ownership requirement for membership, a limitation number of Airstream employee memberships, and the appointment of a non voting Airstream CEO representative on the Board. This goes directly against the thrust of the "The ties between the company and the Club are written into the Constitution" as a source of influence allegation.

Saying "undo influence" - especially in the context of money transfer and outside control - strongly implies corruption and malfeasance. Putting the word justifiable in scare quotes is another example. I maintain that such talk is way out of line unless supported by well founded understanding of the issues involved and hard data of specific incidence.

These are indeed matters of criminality and quite analogous to corruption and malfeasance that has occurred in other organizations. Difficulty to obtain conviction does not excuse either the alleged behavior nor the allegations and accusations without foundation. Talk to United Way or other organizations that have been plagued by behavior as alleged in this thread.

To pretend that "No one has said that the WBCCI Executive Board or IBT has done anything" is a denial of the context. Talking all around an allegation and pretending it was not said does not mean it was not made. This thread does not have the appearance nor context of an hypothetical.

If there was not a belief in malfeasance or corruption, then why the talk about money, about perks, about influence, and about control? Put it on the table. Show the improper money transfer. Provide actual evidence of unreasonable and corrupting perks. Make the case for undue influence. Show how the control was exercised. Otherwise it is destructive hot air.

From the Blue Book:

CODE OF ETHICS

CODE OF ETHICS

"To be ever mindful of our responsibility to Wally Byam Caravan Club International, Inc., and through conduct, indicate to the public that membership in this organization is an assurance of our courtesy on the road and good will to all peoples and countries.

"To be ever mindful of what we say or print with respect to the effect on others so as to avoid disharmony and ill feelings among club members and to dedicate ourselves to the work of cementing together the members of WBCCI in bonds of good fellowship and mutual understanding. (6/23/01)

"To conduct ourselves in a manner to inspire others engaged in recreational vehicle travel to a full appreciation of the intent and meaning of this code.

"To maintain our camps in an orderly manner and leave them in the same way."

Read the rest of the Blue Book. It has more about proper behavior in the appropriate documents. Thor has no control over WBCCI. Even its influence is limited in many ways. And despite the carping about voting, the members do have control and direct influence. If there are to be changes, there is a procedure to determine what they should be and how to implement them. It would be much more productive and constructive to suggest what change should be made and make the case for it than to rip and tear and what currently exists without any constructive suggestion.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by dougjamie

Sorry, Chuck, but I heartily disagree with you on this one.

hey, not a "position"...just throwin it out there for discussion

Originally Posted by dougjamie

But, by what you're saying, if they cannot commit to being at a set place at a set time each year, maybe we don't really want them making decisions about the club's direction.

just saying that this was perhaps by design. club officers DO have to make that kind of commitment.

Originally Posted by dougjamie

And what you describe about what goes on with the voting procedure in your unit now doesn't sound very desireable either. Those who are active and attend when they can may not be able to vote because they can't get to one meeting. Those who are not actively involved with the unit, can still be a part of controlling what goes on in the club as long as they show up for a few hours once a year, with or without the trailer. That's a good thing?!?

well, no, of course not. But, it may be that the former is less common than the latter. I don't think "perfection" can be achieved, here. It would'nt be practical for every single person to cast a vote on every single issue, for example. its why we live in a democratic republic, and not a "pure democracy". It simply wouldn't be practical.

Originally Posted by dougjamie

If our unit decides that the members it most desires are those who can make the rallies and business meeting the #1 priority in their life, then I'm thinking I'll be looking for a new unit. Life is bigger than WBCCI. While it's true that I have a choice on where I will donate my WBCCI volunteer time, pay my dues, and attend rallies, the units have some choices to make on how they will attract and retain new members. Hopefully they'll figure out the connection.

I don't think this is a "unit" thing; I'm assuming (maybe dangerously) that this system is club-wide perhaps not. But anyway, I don't think its that the club "desires" a certain type of member any more than any other type; just that the level of influence is relflected in the level of participation.



and nobody got my movie reference. hmph!!

Harvey Kormann?

Mel Brooks???

anyone??

[LuminumTraila]

Originally Posted by chuck

hey, not a "position"...just throwin it out there for discussion

oops -- thought it sounded like you were taking up a position. Sorry 'bout that.

Originally Posted by chuck

just saying that this was perhaps by design. club officers DO have to make that kind of commitment.

Maybe. It's a bit short-sighted of a club to set up voting rules to exclude members from voting based solely on commitment to a particular unit. What's the point of accepting their membership dues and not giving them voting rights for club-wide issues?

Originally Posted by chuck

well, no, of course not. But, it may be that the former is less common than the latter. I don't think "perfection" can be achieved, here. It would'nt be practical for every single person to cast a vote on every single issue, for example. its why we live in a democratic republic, and not a "pure democracy". It simply wouldn't be practical.

I don't expect perfection (who does?), but an attempt at fairness would be good. Even in our democratic republic, those who can't be at the polls on election day can file an absentee ballot.

Originally Posted by chuck

I don't think this is a "unit" thing; I'm assuming (maybe dangerously) that this system is club-wide perhaps not. But anyway, I don't think its that the club "desires" a certain type of member any more than any other type; just that the level of influence is relflected in the level of participation.

My understanding is that how the unit votes is up to the unit's executive board to decide. (See Shari's post here: http://www.airforums.com/forum...1-post193.html) The Denver unit has decided to do a mail ballot, and I think I read that the Washington unit (there may be others) has also decided to go with a mail ballot this year to allow more members to vote on the name change issue.

[wheel interested]

It's a bit short-sighted of a club to set up voting rules to exclude members from voting based solely on commitment to a particular unit. What's the point of accepting their membership dues and not giving them voting rights for club-wide issues?

I think a revision to voting rights for members at large would be in order. A MAL pays the same amount of dues as members in local units and even higher than some local units. A MAL actually has more money going towards the international dues. In the past collecting a vote for a MAL may have been a problem or the decision may simply have been made on the basis that a MAL would not involved at any local level. But all club business is not limited to the local unit level and with internet connectivity there should be no reason not to make way to accommodate them now for international matters. The reasons for the choice to become a member at large can be for various reasons, but in joining the club it demonstrates an interest and committment to becoming a club member and should rate consideration. One should not assume a lack of committment on the part of a MAL but rather consider the committment being placed at the international level. Many can be actively attending and participating in state and International rallies. Some may not be in line with home based attendance of luncheons, meetings and other functions.

My understanding is that how the unit votes is up to the unit's executive board to decide. (See Shari's post here: http://www.airforums.com/forum...1-post193.html) The Denver unit has decided to do a mail ballot, and I think I read that the Washington unit (there may be others) has also decided to go with a mail ballot this year to allow more members to vote on the name change issue.

I was very pleased to receive an e-mail from our local unit president that Metro-Detroit will also be receiving mail ballots and information on the voting choices and solliciting comments for the inclusion or exclusion of the Base Camp, etc. I am glad our unit can and will handle important and sensitive issues in that manner.

[Forrest]

Bryan,

Why do you keep harping about criminality? Do you have a law enforcement background? Are you a lawyer? Are you a prosecutor? Do you honestly think that all instances of "undo influence" rises to the level of criminality? On the other hand, are you bare faced asserting that there has never been any "perks" or "discounts" provided by Airstream? Do you really think we are interested in doing the type of criminal investigation into alleged influence that you say we have to have in order to simply discuss influence?

You insist that I read the Constitution, Bylaws, etc. when I have. Then you cite rules that have nothing to do what-so-ever with influence, financial or otherwise. If you think there are rules within our organization that are SPECIFICALLY intended to address influence ethics then you look them up and copy them to this thread. I shouldn't have to do your work for you, when I know it doesn't exist. And yes, I have an extensive law enforcement background. There are no criminal actions to be taken in this organization, because no crimes have been committed. You, asking us to prove that there is, ask for us to prove a negative - something that doesn't exist. "Undo influence" is a ethical question, not a criminal one in this context.

[safarinight]

I think a revision to voting rights for members at large would be in order. A MAL pays the same amount of dues as members in local units and even higher than some local units. A MAL actually has more money going towards the international dues. In the past collecting a vote for a MAL may have been a problem or the decision may simply have been made on the basis that a MAL would not involved at any local level. But all club business is not limited to the local unit level and with internet connectivity there should be no reason not to make way to accommodate them now for international matters. The reasons for the choice to become a member at large can be for various reasons, but in joining the club it demonstrates an interest and committment to becoming a club member and should rate consideration. One should not assume a lack of committment on the part of a MAL but rather consider the committment being placed at the international level. Many can be actively attending and participating in state and International rallies. Some may not be in line with home based attendance of luncheons, meetings and other functions.

Well said Carol. Thanks.

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Bryan, Why do you keep harping about criminality?

Because I consider the unfounded allegations that are being made to be irresponsible, ignorant, poisonous, and highly destructive. The denial of the implications of the asssertions and the allegations is not constructive in any way.

Then you cite rules that have nothing to do what-so-ever with influence, financial or otherwise.

I referred to provisions in the WBCCI Constitution that are typical boilerplate inserted for the specific reason to ameliorate undue influence in association governance, financial and otherwise, by other entities.

The assertions contradict themselves: If there is undue influence there is criminal activity. You can't have one without the other in a nonprofit association. Again, I have provided reference for anyone who wants to learn why this is so. Those who make allegations about innapropriate behavior, such as undue influence, should support those allegations and not just try to pretend that they are not what they are. Ignoring the references I have offered or trying to pretend that they do not say what they say is not going to lead anywhere.

I am not asking anyone to prove a negative, I am asking that support and evidence for allegations that there is undue influence or other ethical, moral, or legal breach of duty by leaders of the association be put on the table.

It was alleged that there was no code of ethics - I quoted it. It was alleged that the consititution included provisions for Thor to have influence over WBCCI - I showed that the reality is the opposite. It was alleged that undue influence was not illegal and I have provided reference to demonstrate otherwise. The question is just how far this should go and continue. I think that if what has been offered in this vein is not enough for someone then the issue is not undue influence in the association but something deeper and more personal. And that is out of bounds for a discussion like this.

[cooperhawk]

Originally Posted by Leipper

Because I consider the unfounded allegations that are being made to be irresponsible, ignorant, poisonous, and highly destructive. The denial of the implications of the asssertions and the allegations is not constructive in any way.

I agree with all this and might offer something else. Making statements about the charactor of other people on an open forum with your name signed to it could also be construed as charactor assasination and the source of the statements could be held legally liable. You might also meet up with some of the folks you are so viteral about. Might not be too pleasant. I have met some of these folks and they are not the scoundrels that you portray.

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

I think a revision to voting rights for members at large would be in order.... The reasons for the choice to become a member at large can be for various reasons, but in joining the club it demonstrates an interest and committment to becoming a club member and should rate consideration.

One of the difficulties is related to the earlier comment about the new generation Inet social structures. WBCCI has always suffered because its most active members are out and about and not always able to participate directly at all levels. This is why a republic structure with delegates is used and why important issues are on the table for so long. Where do members vote and how do they vote and how are votes counted?

The member at large issue touches another comment about focus as well. Is WBCCI a federation of its local units or is it a uniform collection of its members? What is the role of the unit in the association? Are units locality centric (as most are) or issue centric (e.g. WDC and VAC)? Are units the basic governance entity or are the memberships? Where does the I'Rally fit into these considerations? How does the organization support its units (chapters) and in what ways?

The "should rate consideration" is an interesting point as well. It raises the issue of what someone expects to receive in return for supporting the organization with dues. Is dues payment a gift or is it a quid-pro-quo contract? Does payment of dues entitle one to some set of privileges or benefits? What about other categories of members?

What gets me is that there is this big ruckus about MAL voting rights that they could purchase (as some have) for a simple $10 or so donation to some local unit somewhere. I am rather put-off by those who make a choice to join as MAL and then seem entitled to something they did not choose - especially when there is such a simple and inexpensive solution to the voting problem. Such angst tells me the problem is not MAL voting privilege but rather something else.

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by cooperhawk

I have met some of these folks and they are not the scoundrels that you portray.

Are you saying that I have called people scoundrels?

If that is the perception, I am grieved. The intent and purpose of my effort has been to object to unfounded allegations and personal aspersions.

[cooperhawk]

Not at all. I am agreeing with you. You read it wrong.

[cooperhawk]

Originally Posted by cooperhawk

I agree with all this and might offer something else.

Making statements about the charactor of other people on an open forum with your name signed to it could also be construed as charactor assasination and the source of the statements could be held legally liable. You might also meet up with some of the folks you are so viteral about. Might not be too pleasant. I have met some of these folks and they are not the scoundrels that you portray.

I see I worded it poorly. I meant the people casting unfounded aspersions might experience some consequences.

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by Leipper

One of the difficulties is related to the earlier comment about the new generation Inet social structures. WBCCI has always suffered because its most active members are out and about and not always able to participate directly at all levels. This is why a republic structure with delegates is used and why important issues are on the table for so long. Where do members vote and how do they vote and how are votes counted?

The member at large issue touches another comment about focus as well. Is WBCCI a federation of its local units or is it a uniform collection of its members? What is the role of the unit in the association? Are units locality centric (as most are) or issue centric (e.g. WDC and VAC)? Are units the basic governance entity or are the memberships? Where does the I'Rally fit into these considerations? How does the organization support its units (chapters) and in what ways?

The "should rate consideration" is an interesting point as well. It raises the issue of what someone expects to receive in return for supporting the organization with dues. Is dues payment a gift or is it a quid-pro-quo contract? Does payment of dues entitle one to some set of privileges or benefits? What about other categories of members?

What gets me is that there is this big ruckus about MAL voting rights that they could purchase (as some have) for a simple $10 or so donation to some local unit somewhere. I am rather put-off by those who make a choice to join as MAL and then seem entitled to something they did not choose - especially when there is such a simple and inexpensive solution to the voting problem. Such angst tells me the problem is not MAL voting privilege but rather something else.

Bryan, you have made your post very interesting and thought provoking. I was actually disappointed that I finished reading it! I think it could be expounded upon as a series of articles. Actually much of what I have read here in this thread by many could and should be the types of articles I could and should be reading in my unit newsletter and Blue Beret. Would I ever look forward to receiving them then!! Seems there is very little club "business, insightful articles, stimulating essays, rebuttals and opinions in those publications.

I think the attention and expression of interest about members at large has come primarily from non-MAL members. I think it's time is due for consideration. Yes there is a simple work around, but why shouldn't we refine and rectify the need for members working out their own solutions? About MAL, I am not certain of what the angst is telling you, but I would be intrigued by the theories.

[InsideOut]

Originally Posted by Leipper

Are units locality centric (as most are) or issue centric (e.g. WDC and VAC)? Are units the basic governance entity or are the memberships? Where does the I'Rally fit into these considerations? How does the organization support its units (chapters) and in what ways?

WDC is a Unit - just like any other Unit, the VAC is an IntraClub. IntraClub members vote through their Unit, not through the VAC (or other IntraClub). WDC just happens to have a higher ratio of VAC members than most Units. You could be a MAL VAC member...

Other WBCCI IntraClubs are:

• Amateur Radio Club
• Classic Airstream Club
• Computer Club
• Full-Timers Club
• Vintage Airstream Club
• Genealogy Club
• Free Wheelers (Singles)

Shari

[bryanl]

Shari, Thanks for clarifying the difference between IntraClubs and Units. I'd hate to see some folks more confused than they already are on this. ;-)

The relationship between the VAC and the WDC does serve to illustrate the issue. I know that many VAC members join WDC rather than their local unit and that this seems to be a recommended practice by many VAC members. It is this practice that puts emphasis on an important question for the WBCCI regarding its structure and voting policies and basic identity.

Being able to notice such things as the VAC and WCD common interest patterns is an important part of the ability to be proactive in solving problems such as WBCCI faces rather than being reactive. It is one of several core issues that have not been well addressed IMHO. I see the topic of this thread as one of several distractions from these issues. Distractions that don't contribute to the growth and health of WBCCI.

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by Leipper

Shari, Thanks for clarifying the difference between IntraClubs and Units. I'd hate to see some folks more confused than they already are on this. ;-)

The relationship between the VAC and the WDC does serve to illustrate the issue. I know that many VAC members join WDC rather than their local unit and that this seems to be a recommended practice by many VAC members. It is this practice that puts emphasis on an important question for the WBCCI regarding its structure and voting policies and basic identity.

Being able to notice such things as the VAC and WCD common interest patterns is an important part of the ability to be proactive in solving problems such as WBCCI faces rather than being reactive. It is one of several core issues that have not been well addressed IMHO. I see the topic of this thread as one of several distractions from these issues. Distractions that don't contribute to the growth and health of WBCCI.

Joining the WDC unit is not a recommendation of this VAC member , I believe that you are best served by joining a local unit which has the same goals as the member. There are other Vintage oriented units other than WDC, such as the Denver and El Camino Real units. We attend an El Camino Real rally and have one of the newest trailers with our 1979 Safari (although one of the oldest tow vehicles with the Lincoln). One real advantage to the WDC unit is the $1 dues compared to $20 for At Large.

Bill

[wheel interested]

Joining a local unit by far is the status quo, but depending on the unit, a member could get some "static" over not attending unit functions and even not qualifying to receive certain materials unless in attendance. This has been my personal experience and one that had me ask my local officers if they would prefer I become a member at large next year. Joining a local unit carries a responsibility or at the least, an assumption that one will be active at that level. It can create a two way frustration (both with unit and member) depending upon the member's intention of signing on with the group. So as Bryan stated a good point to consider is, "Are units locality centric (as most are) or issue centric."

[Silvertwinkie]

You know with all that is going on here about WBCCI, maybe it's just me, it's late but in regard to the question on this thread:

Has Airstream Put the "Nail In The Coffin" for WBCCI? - or not?

I sure as heck hope so. I like the informal forum type rallys that are out there. Seems a growing number of folks do too. To that I say, who needs WBCCI? You think folks will sell their Airstream, Argosy and MOHOs and basecamps and never meet another Airstreamer again? The bonds, regardless of club will never be broken. I say if there is a Thor under current, so be it. How much worse could it possibly get? I mean really, make a nearly sunk ship more sunk?

Ok, I'm taking my keyboarding privs away until later.... and will be putting on my 3 ply flame suit now as I duck behind this brick wall for some protection from the heat.

[InsideOut]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

You know with all that is going on here about WBCCI, maybe it's just me, it's late but in regard to the question on this thread:

Has Airstream Put the "Nail In The Coffin" for WBCCI? - or not?

I sure as heck hope so. I like the informal forum type rallys that are out there. Seems a growing number of folks do too. To that I say, who needs WBCCI? You think folks will sell their Airstream, Argosy and MOHOs and basecamps and never meet another Airstreamer again? The bonds, regardless of club will never be broken. I say if there is a Thor under current, so be it. How much worse could it possibly get? I mean really, make a nearly sunk ship more sunk?

Ok, I'm taking my keyboarding privs away until later.... and will be putting on my 3 ply flame suit now as I duck behind this brick wall for some protection from the heat.

Many Unit rallies are "the informal (forum) type rallys that are out there." Just because the Unit you were involved in wasn't "forum like", doesn't mean they are all the same ~

This is why you AREN'T a member...why throw flames at those who are? We happen to enjoy both ~

Shari

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I like the informal forum type rallys that are out there. Seems a growing number of folks do too. To that I say, who needs WBCCI?

I do! I hope to see WBCCI continue to prosper. I love that I am part of a club that has such a history of worldwide travel, even if I will never do the same with them. I want to participate in a Caravan (or several) some day when my schedule permits (still working right now, so that makes it hard). I want to continue to participate in the bigger Special Event Rally's (like last year's Indy 500 Rally, which we loved) that will take me to events that I would probably never experience otherwise. To bad many of these are going away (Indy 500, Kentucky Derby, Mardi Gras, Rose Bowl, Statue of Liberty, etc.).

This year we hope to actually make it to a few local unit Rallies to see what they are about. They may add to the list of reasons I want WBCCI to prosper, I just don't know for sure yet.

And yes the informal Forum type Rallies are good, too.