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Old 04-15-2010, 05:15 AM   #379
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:38 AM   #380
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Another example of a generation that relies on antilock brakes, cruise control,traction control and anti skid to drive. One of these does not function properly and the vehicle can not be driven. Give me a break! I am not saying that this is not a problem and it should be fixed, but to take a vehicle off the road for this problem is weird. This problem makes this vehicle drive like any other without this device, . Another way to look at it isif this device is necessary for the car to be safely driven, then we must look at the design of the vehicle and the skill of the driver. Most drivers today could not drive an older vehicle without abs, antiskid and so on. Some can not drive if the sound system quits. I amk not saying that these devices are not good as far as safety goes but the skill of the driver decreases as each of thes devices, let's say, bails us out of a bad situation sometimes caused by driver error, in a sense rewarding us for bad driving and making poor decisions. zz
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:49 AM   #381
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You hit the nail right on the head!!!

On a different note. . . I see a lot of discussion about tow vehicles and that if you don't have an F250 diesel or something along those lines, you should'nt tow anything bigger then a 25 footer. My question is, if Airstream has been around since the 30's, didn't people tow these with big sedans? I also get a kick out of the people at my office that will not come into work if it's snowing, because they don't have AWD on their cars, give me a break!! I made it to work everyday with rear wheel drive and lucky to have snow tires if we could afford them.

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Originally Posted by zigzagguzzi View Post
Another example of a generation that relies on antilock brakes, cruise control,traction control and anti skid to drive. One of these does not function properly and the vehicle can not be driven. Give me a break! I am not saying that this is not a problem and it should be fixed, but to take a vehicle off the road for this problem is weird. This problem makes this vehicle drive like any other without this device, . Another way to look at it isif this device is necessary for the car to be safely driven, then we must look at the design of the vehicle and the skill of the driver. Most drivers today could not drive an older vehicle without abs, antiskid and so on. Some can not drive if the sound system quits. I amk not saying that these devices are not good as far as safety goes but the skill of the driver decreases as each of thes devices, let's say, bails us out of a bad situation sometimes caused by driver error, in a sense rewarding us for bad driving and making poor decisions. zz
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:49 AM   #382
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I would say this is more of a chance for Consumer Reports to nit-pick an SUV type vehicle because it isn't "green" enough - ie; a compact car from Asia. They have always been biased towards the small cars.
CR is an ok outfit if you want some advice on buying a vacuum cleaner but I don't think they have much credibility towards automobiles.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:33 AM   #383
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I would say this is more of a chance for Consumer Reports to nit-pick an SUV type vehicle because it isn't "green" enough - ie; a compact car from Asia. They have always been biased towards the small cars.
CR is an ok outfit if you want some advice on buying a vacuum cleaner but I don't think they have much credibility towards automobiles.
If you took some time and read a few of their reports, you might realize that their data is the most credible available.

Why?
1. They buy the vehicles they report on, no hand-picked (and tuned) "test" models given to them by manufacturers.

2. They are completely subscriber-supported: they accept NO advertising. None.

The interesting thing is that the data they give on reliability comes 100% from those same subscribers, and is taken from surveys they do every year of people that actually own the cars they report on.

That's as "real-life as you can get. They don't do "polls" of dealers, or simply re-print manufacurers' information.

In fact, the "awards" that are given out by other sources, such as magazines, and so-called "consumer groups" are "purchased" from them through buying advertising support. It's just marketing.

Toyota would certainly seem to give them credibility: the day after CR notified them of the "don't buy" warning they had issued on the Lexus GX-460, they issued a "stop sale" order on it in the US.

If you know of another source on automobile data that is even mildly unbiased, I'd love to hear about it...
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:17 AM   #384
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aage said,
"If you know of another source on automobile data that is even mildly unbiased, I'd love to hear about it..."

I consider CR as a biased source when it comes to vehicle testing. While there's nothing wrong with having a "green" agenda, it drives the results of vehicle testing. I just purchased a '10 Wrangler Unlimited. It's my ninth Jeep and fifth new one. Look at the CR tests for any Wrangler and compare it to a CRV or RAVE 4. The CR basis towards imports in certain categories is blatant. However, out on the trail, the CRV and RAV4 are pitifully inadequate compared to a Wrangler.

If you were to look at the demographics of CR subscribers (ask for their media kit), it would be obvious that the editorial content is skewed to those readers.

Again, there's nothing wrong with the direction CR has taken over the years, but it is a pi$$ poor source if you're looking for information on work trucks, off road vehicles and even tow vehicles because that information is of little or no interest to their readers.
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:31 AM   #385
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aage said,
"If you know of another source on automobile data that is even mildly unbiased, I'd love to hear about it..."

I consider CR as a biased source when it comes to vehicle testing. While there's nothing wrong with having a "green" agenda, it drives the results of vehicle testing. I just purchased a '10 Wrangler Unlimited. It's my ninth Jeep and fifth new one. Look at the CR tests for any Wrangler and compare it to a CRV or RAVE 4. The CR basis towards imports in certain categories is blatant. However, out on the trail, the CRV and RAV4 are pitifully inadequate compared to a Wrangler.

If you were to look at the demographics of CR subscribers (ask for their media kit), it would be obvious that the editorial content is skewed to those readers.

Again, there's nothing wrong with the direction CR has taken over the years, but it is a pi$$ poor source if you're looking for information on work trucks, off road vehicles and even tow vehicles because that information is of little or no interest to their readers.
Denis4x4 - thanks for saying the words that I couldn't come up with - I'm not in CR's demographic.
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Old 04-16-2010, 02:57 PM   #386
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Well, if a bias towards reliable and comfortable cars, trucks, and SUVs that get better than average fuel mileage in their class is "green-biased", then paint me green from head to toe. I currently drive a Ford van and a Toyota sub-compact, each car bought for a specific use.

Oh the other hand, it's not only the number 1 rated car that sells. So if less reliable, noisy vehicles with rough riding and below-par handling is your thing, you will vote with your money by buying what you like, and what best serves your needs.

And that's as it should be. We live in democracies. We're free to nit-pick, or ignore blantant differences in vehicles.

Just to put the record straight they aren't "Asian" cars (the following is from Wikipedia):

1) Beginning in November 2008, the North American RAV-4s are all built in the Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada Inc. Second Plant (in either Woodstock, or Cambridge, Ontario).

2) For 2007, Honda CR-V became one of the ten best selling vehicles of the year, outselling competitors like RAV4, Escape and Tahoe by tens of thousands.[6] It even overtook Ford Explorer, which had held the title for fifteen years (1991–2006), to be the number-one selling SUV in the US.[7] To meet the high demand, Honda shifted some Civic production from East Liberty, Ohio to Alliston Plant #2, Ontario[8] (where some Pilot, Ridgeline, and Odyssey production was located until production was consolidated at Honda's Lincoln, Alabama facility) to free up space for additional CR-V production.

So these are both North American built cars. And it's also apparent that the vast majority of SUV drivers do not go off-road. How could the CR-V be the #1 seller if they did?

I enjoy CR because aren't tainted by anything except logic. They think that saving money and hassle and yes, the planet too, is logical. But ever since the internal combustion engine was first sold, it's been proved millions of times that logic isn't the only predictor in an automotive purchase.

And there's no "bias towards imports". What is biased about appreciating quality?

Again, the ratings on reliability, the over-arching result of quality, are the data they got from people that have bought, owned and lived with the vehicles for years, and not just some numbers they pulled out of the air, or that they were given by the companies that pay for space in their magazines...
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Old 04-16-2010, 03:28 PM   #387
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focus people...

this thread isn't about CR

there is a big applicance/airconditioner/babystroller/lawnmower/television/vacuum cleaner forum JUST for that....
_________

so NOW toyota is gonna TEST all of their suvs...

Toyota to Test All SUVs, Suspends Lexus GX Output - ABC News

Toyota And Lexus To Conduct Safety Tests On All SUVs - MotorAuthority

great idea.

maybe next time do it BEFORE production, like in the design/development phase...



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Old 04-16-2010, 03:54 PM   #388
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I have to confess that in another life I wrote for several automotive magazines and did more than a few tests. First off, I can document that tens of thousands of ad dollars were pulled from various magazines when writers found fault with a manufacturer's offering. Autoweek has called for owner input on various new cars for as long as I can remember. Furthermore, CR reader surveys don't take into account changes in mechanical designs from year to year. A lot of times, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

A friend of mine owns a "test car prep" company that deals with imports. (My definition of import includes the fact that the profits go to Tokyo even if the vehicle is built in North America.) Because of franchise laws, these vehicles are pulled from a dealership (same as CR) and the "prep" is nothing more than detailing the vehicle.

I could care less that you're a cheer leader for CR, however, you've misrepresented how other publications test vehicles and question the results.
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:05 PM   #389
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I love how Denis compared his Jeep Wrangler to a CRV or RAV4. What a cheap shot! Yeah, maybe the RAV4 or CRV isn't that great offroading but........how about the FJ or the 4Runner, maybe the Tacoma 4x4. Fair is fair!
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:25 PM   #390
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OK, I'm a cheerleader. But not for CR, rather, for logic and a level playing field. You don't get either when you're afraid to admit the truth, because the hand that feeds you will slap you down.

Also, please tell us where the profits from your Jeep go now? No, not Tokyo. Outside of the UAW retiree medical fund, who owns the biggest share?

Right: Fiat!

So your Jeep is an import too, by your own definition. It's a sexy Italian import!
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:36 PM   #391
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Another example of a generation that relies on antilock brakes, cruise control,traction control and anti skid to drive. One of these does not function properly and the vehicle can not be driven. Give me a break! I am not saying that this is not a problem and it should be fixed, but to take a vehicle off the road for this problem is weird. This problem makes this vehicle drive like any other without this device, . Another way to look at it isif this device is necessary for the car to be safely driven, then we must look at the design of the vehicle and the skill of the driver. Most drivers today could not drive an older vehicle without abs, antiskid and so on. Some can not drive if the sound system quits. I amk not saying that these devices are not good as far as safety goes but the skill of the driver decreases as each of thes devices, let's say, bails us out of a bad situation sometimes caused by driver error, in a sense rewarding us for bad driving and making poor decisions. zz
i fully aggree with you... i just finished a car commercial for a car that has a "pedestrian protection device"...

so if i run over a pedestrian it's not my fault anymore... in what no-fault country/world we live in...

oh boy...
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:51 PM   #392
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Ut-oh... Bad week for Toyota!

Toyota is recalling 870,000 of its Sienna minivans in Canada and the United States because of a potential problem with the cable that secures the spare tire.

The Sienna minivan was not part of an earlier Toyota recall to address accelerator-pedal problems. (Toyota Canada)

In cold-weather climates, road salt can corrode the cable and might cause it to snap. The tire could fall off onto the road and cause a crash.

Toyota Canada said Friday the voluntary recall affects 270,000 two-wheel-drive Siennas from the 1998-2010 model years.

"Toyota Canada is asking owners of affected vehicles to bring their vehicles to their local dealership for an inspection in order to assess the condition of the spare tire carrier assembly," the automaker said in a statement.

(Quoted from cbc.ca)

870,000 minivans! Well, as Henry Ford once said, "What's a million?"

Hoo, boy: now they're gonna get all the soccer moms mad at them, too! In fact, my sister-in-law is gonna be doubly upset: once at Toyota for the defect, and once at me for recommending it, based on what I read in, you guessed it, CR! LOL!!!


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