Airstream – Living on it’s past?

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by AtomicNo13

I think we can all agree, Airstreams need a more effective insulation solution.... They're hot, they're cold, requiring lots of energy to heat and cool. There are more effective solutions over fiberglass and whatever the new stuff is. Besides that, Airstream has lots of naturally forming water between the skins. It is absorbed and stored in the current insulation.

I think that the insulation is rock wool, not fibreglass, and doesn't absorb water.

[AlinCal]

The spray foam insulation turning to dust is one of those myths that become internet facts imo. Has anyone seen this in person?
There are many formulas of spray foam and I have worked around a few of them in the building trades and just have a hard time seeing the dust scenario.
My thoughts are that it would add too much cost over the simple installation of whatever is used today. Its a messy, toxic activity that would need accurate shaping before the inner wall sheets could go on, assuming you are trying to completely fill the 1-3/4" space without voids.

[Del Gurney]

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f478...tch-97128.html

[featherbedder]

Originally Posted by AlinCal

The spray foam insulation turning to dust is one of those myths that become internet facts imo. Has anyone seen this in person?
There are many formulas of spray foam and I have worked around a few of them in the building trades and just have a hard time seeing the dust scenario.
My thoughts are that it would add too much cost over the simple installation of whatever is used today. Its a messy, toxic activity that would need accurate shaping before the inner wall sheets could go on, assuming you are trying to completely fill the 1-3/4" space without voids.

I believe some might be refering to soap suds type of foam of years ago that was sprayed in existing walls, after several yrs it was like dust, needless to say in spite of all hype it disappeared from use. IMO not all spray insulation is toxic.

[featherbedder]

Originally Posted by AlinCal

The spray foam insulation turning to dust is one of those myths that become internet facts imo. Has anyone seen this in person?
There are many formulas of spray foam and I have worked around a few of them in the building trades and just have a hard time seeing the dust scenario.
My thoughts are that it would add too much cost over the simple installation of whatever is used today. Its a messy, toxic activity that would need accurate shaping before the inner wall sheets could go on, assuming you are trying to completely fill the 1-3/4" space without voids.

I believe some might be referring to soap suds type of foam of years ago that was sprayed in existing walls, after several yrs it was like dust, needless to say in spite of all hype it disappeared from use. I have torn apart walls that had this type total garbage. IMO not all spray insulation is toxic.

[AlinCal]

Originally Posted by featherbedder

I believe some might be refering to soap suds type of foam of years ago that was sprayed in existing walls, after several yrs it was like dust, needless to say in spite of all hype it disappeared from use. IMO not all spray insulation is toxic.

I was refering to the application of it, and all may not be but the products ive seen used are applied with full protection and the areas sealed off.

[PKI]

Originally Posted by uraljohn

-- snip -- a 2019 Lance 1985 -- snip -- will take a hit if he sells in a couple of years. -- snip --.

When time to sell, offer it to the East Coast. Lance is not readily available East of the Mississippi and the brand is recognized as a value RV. Will still take a hit, but maybe not so much. Pat

[Totlh]

Originally Posted by Wolfwhistle

I disagree that the industry is changing. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part the makers are churning out junk as fast as they can cobble them together and they have no trouble selling all they can make. No incentive to be innovative, for the most part.

I agree that all of us could wish Airstream had done this or that differently. It would be impossible for AS to build something that fits everyone perfectly, and they are not perfect. I have made several mods, as you surely will. But, I am very glad they didn't hang a ladder on my 23FB; that would be HIDEOUS! Not to mention the structural and cosmetic issues.

If you must have a bike rack, look into Arvika that puts it up front. It seems to me, that would be better than the rear mounted variety for various reasons. There's already "stuff" on the front, but the back end is too nice to spoil the aesthetics with bits and bobs.

Clint

Thanks Clint. I'll check it out.

BTW, I agree with you. I wouldn't want a ladder either. I used that as an example. No option for those that would want one.

[slowmover]

Not getting on the roof is pretty funny.

Would support you and all your helpers on a repair job. See factory photos with two DOZEN men on the roof.

Try to avoid when wet. Or greasy. And that footwear is appropriate to both ladder-climbing and surface grip problems.

I usually wash my trailer from roof down. I loop the garden hose around the AC unit. Bucket & brush from there with TT tilted rearward beforehand.

Whoops, I almost forgot. I own a Silver Streak. Not the downmarket AS. Clad with MIRACLE aluminum sheeting she can mount a twin 40-mm Bofors Anti-Aircraft Autocannon on that 32’ x 6’ longitudinal center panel.

Been walking around on these TT roofs fifty years this year. Do it carefully. Procedurally. The slip
/trip problem is the only real “problem”.

.

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by AlinCal

The spray foam insulation turning to dust is one of those myths that become internet facts imo. Has anyone seen this in person?

I have. Several times.

The longer ago the foam was applied, the more of it has crumbled.
There is some "foamy" stuff that doesn't crumble as badly, but it tends to stick so well that if you ever need to remove whatever it's stuck to, you'll probably destroy the part getting the foam away from it. And that stuff is horribly expen$ive.

[SeeMore]

Originally Posted by overlander63

Airstream tried slides, and were not successful. The design of the trailer is not conducive to slides, and to redesign the Airstream to allow it to have slides would make it no longer an Airstream. At least, not an Airstream like we currently see.

Airstream built slides for ten years (2000-2009) and stopped production when the economy crash caused a severe contraction among RV constructors. Airstream reports 600+ built over that timeframe and there are currently 99 owners registered in the forums' SlideOut Society thread. Airstream choose to concentrate their focus on their highest volume models during the rapid expansion of the last decade. I think that decision has been validated based on the deep backlog demand after having tripled production capacity.

Airstream with slides don't look any different than other models when the slide is closed. Another opinion in doubt is the durability of Airstream's slide versus the competition. As a 14 year Slide owner I can attest to it's over-engineered design which has not failed or leaked while in my possession.

Slideout models have experienced significant value retention. They are infrequently sold and are rarely "for sale" very long. I have been offered more than I paid which confirms my pride of ownership.

I can't count how many times I've been on the roof for maintenance (vent cover swaps, AC coil cleaning, antenna upgrade, re-sealing, etc.) and wash/waxing, but walking strictly on the ribs is not harmful.

As for product design changes to gain market share, Airstream is making trailer product improvements incrementally as the bulk of their efforts are focused on increasing volume to keep up with demand for current models. Greater profitability is an equal decision driver and it appears they believe that is the class-B market and tiny trailer markets. RoadTrek being placed in receivership and closed last Friday by a Canadian court will certainly increase opportunity in the class-B market.

[AlinCal]

Originally Posted by overlander63

I have. Several times.

The longer ago the foam was applied, the more of it has crumbled.
There is some "foamy" stuff that doesn't crumble as badly, but it tends to stick so well that if you ever need to remove whatever it's stuck to, you'll probably destroy the part getting the foam away from it. And that stuff is horribly expen$ive.

That makes sense then, I assumed we were talking current technology.
I have worked with at least 2 different Icynene products and the more widely used wall cavity foam is easily removed and does not stick too strongly, The other was a higher performance spray that was used in the walls to create a wine cellar, we had to get back into a wall and it was insanely difficult to remove.
The cost is indeed high with this product and that is one reason I think we wont see it anytime soon, turning to dust or not.

[Totlh]

Now that I read down through all these posts, I'm more covinced than ever, A/S is living at least somewhat off of is past.

I still like my A/S. I was just looking to see what others thought.

Thanks all for your opinion.

[skyguyscott]

Wally allegedly said, "Let's not make any changes, only improvements."

We can certainly argue if that has been the case over the last several years; I imagine it's true that in some regards, the trailers today are both better and worse in different areas. But it is also true that AS trailers are not as good as they could be, probably overpriced, but if made as good as they could be, most likely even more unaffordable to the masses.

AS trailers were once ahead of their time, but ironically, used materials that were common of their era and have become icons of mid-20th century style.
But if we wanted to imagine today what some sort of Hi-tech, futuristic travel trailer might look like, few of us would conjure an image of an AS trailer.

Yet back in the day, that is what AS was; a space-age, light-weight, luxury trailer.

Thor has not invested much in advancing the design of the AS into the 21st century, but rather, focused on increasing production and profitability of an iconic, proven model, and could be credibly accused of living off the past glory and reputation of the brand. No one would be led to believe that anyone like Steve Jobs currently works at AS.

But Thor is investing in Jackson Center, most hopefully, finally building a research and testing lab -- long overdue. Thor is also "trying" with products like BaseCamp and Nest, and partnerships with MB. And they do tinker with adding "features" to the iconic trailers, but as far as I know, they aren't really experimenting much with the basic design, nor trying alternative materials like carbon fiber, different alloys, aerogel insulation, spin welding aluminum, or other state-of-the-art materials and manufacturing technologies. They did finally start to add a few CNC robotics to the plant recently, however.

But if the BC and Nest are accurate reflections of what Thor can accomplish from a blank slate, they do indeed have some real work to do; getting the basic engineering and design talent necessary to create a fundamentally sound trailer, for one, and attain manufacturing prowess necessary to consistently put out a trailer that can withstand the rigors of the use for which it is intended.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by Totlh

A couple of things I must state right off the top.



1) I’m relatively new to the Airstream community. We bought our airstream used at in December 2018, it is a 2016 Flying Cloud..

2)I also have a Lance 2017 model 1985, that I will be selling after I get it home and cleaned up.



That said, I believe I’m in a position to offer my opinion on a few topics relative to both.

1)The Airstream, while quite unique has not entirely kept up with the others that are starting to lead the industry. (Artic Fox/Lance) These units are certified four season. (Fact – not my opinion)

2)The Airstream does not carry this certification. (Fact – not my opinion)

3)The Airstream uses a number of the same suppliers as Lance /Artic Fox, (Again, Fact, not my opinion)

4)The Lance has a ladder, either standard or optional capable of carrying bicycles using a very inexpensive rack. (Fact)

5)The Airstream has one supplier of bicycle racks. (I think this is fact, I’m not positive) This one supplier has found it okay to overcharge for its corner on the market. (My opinion)

6)I bought my Airstream used and my Lance new. Both have/ continue to have problems that I consider minor. I am relatively handy and fix most problems myself. I consider this fact since I’ve never taken either to a dealer to have work performed.



So here goes with my opinion:



The Airstream has a few simple (My opinion) things Airstream could do to improve live ability and improve its market share.

1)Make a rear ladder standard so the roof could be accessed safely.

2)Make the ladder strong enough to support a couple of bicycles or better yet, make the frame strong enough to allow it to support a standard Reese mounted bike rack.

3) Start usin blown in foam insulation instead of insulation that can carry twice its weight in water.

4)I’m not going to suggest Airstream lower prices because I do not know what their production costs are. Plus, my selfish side does not want my current Airstream to drastically decrease in value.

What are your thoughts/opinions?

Jerry

Hi and welcome, Jerry.

In your list of 6 facts/opinions, I knew 1-3 before buying my Airstream and none of that bothered me. It’s not a 4-season trailer so I don’t try to use it that way. Someday when we retire, we’re going to do our own version of “chasing 72 degrees” which will take 4 seasons but feel like one. Items 4 and 5 seem like specific interests you have that AS doesn’t do the way you like. I learned more about 6 after buying but haven’t been overly disappointed with my unit’s build quality.

You then make 4 recommendations - 1 and 2 are related to your points 4 and 5 earlier. Those are clearly your preferences. You may be in a group of less than 1% of AS owners who might want the same. That doesn’t make you or AS right or wrong - it’s just not a common complaint (judging by the content of these forums I’ve read over the past 6 years). It’s your trailer - modify as you like. If a ladder that holds bikes is your desire - knock yourself out. It wouldn’t hurt to chat with AS engineers first - there may be structural or other reasons why they don’t do it - so just be fully informed. You’ll find opinions online that range from “do whatever you want” to “don’t ever modify anything without consulting an attorney first” and everything in between. I’m a fan of going in to things eyes wide open whenever possible. You do you [emoji3]

Insulation (blown or otherwise) is covered ad nauseum in other threads.

Lower prices? Who doesn’t love lower prices? [emoji3]

Bottom line - it sounds like a bike holding ladder is a preference but not a deal-breaker for you. There are many threads here on creative bike solutions too - from fork clips in the trailer to over the hitch solutions to front hitch carriers (my choice) - so hopefully you can find some wisdom here that works for you- just remember there is no perfect decision and every choice is a compromise.

With that - happy camping to you!

[HiHoAgRV]

If you do pursue a rear ladder, keep in mind that it not only needs to reach the top of the roof, it also needs to continue about 4 feet forward to the shell. The compound rear segments have no structure and will collapse under the slightest weight. That's going to make a, um, unique looking rig on the back of an Airstream since the upper part will be horizontal and need elevated rails.

[slowmover]

AS would be well-served with a weight-reduction focus. Aluminum honeycomb floors and aluminum cabinetry, for one. Greater structural strength and near-elimination of rot problems.

The 27’s weigh as much or more than my 35’ Silver Streak. While weight, per se, isn’t a problem, THESE weight problems offer no benefit in return.

And there’s no excuse for ignoring ANTILOCK disc brakes.

.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by slowmover

AS would be well-served with a weight-reduction focus. Aluminum honeycomb floors and aluminum cabinetry, for one. Greater structural strength and near-elimination of rot problems.

The 27’s weigh as much or more than my 35’ Silver Streak. While weight, per se, isn’t a problem, THESE weight problems offer no benefit in return.

And there’s no excuse for ignoring ANTILOCK disc brakes.

.

Absolutely GREAT ideas! Didn’t some Argosy trailers have aluminum cabinets? Did they also have aluminum honeycomb floors?? I love that idea.

And disc brakes. Absolutely.

[slowmover]

Streamline was ahead of the crowd in several respects. See their truly beautiful 1969 brochure on Tom Patterson’s great site.

Picture a double overhead kitchen cabinet. Now hand it to to your wife to carry away. With one hand. (Slight exaggeration).

The 1970s killed innovation in this business. American pay raises were no longer linked to productivity, and communist “equality” garbage killed the family wage (the pay cut is now above 50%). That also killed family vacations of any real length. Then, divorce. This TT type has always been expensive. But it’s cheaper today as a vacation home in a great locale was its traditional competition.

Airstream was the entry-level bargain-brand. Volume. Which did translate to some worthy changes (until Wally died).

AS tied up the patents so long on disc brakes during the 1970s, that the other makers never got on board either.

Being rescued from the scrap heap didn’t resurrect innovation for quality’s sake. Keep that in mind. A prestige brand donning withered laurels

I’d say that only ducted AC and the Alde heater are the single genuine improvements since 1980.

.

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

Absolutely GREAT ideas! Didn’t some Argosy trailers have aluminum cabinets? Did they also have aluminum honeycomb floors?? I love that idea.

And disc brakes. Absolutely.

Argosy 6.0M and some 6.7M Minuets had the aluminum honeycomb floors.....the only aluminum cabinetry in my 310 was the faceframe part, mostly made out of aluminum extrusions.

For what it's worth, my 1983 310 turbo diesel has disc brakes all around; no drums.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

PS Airstream should use Coosa board for its floor....