NMF oil additive

[John Woodrow]

I'm usually not big on snake oil additives but a good friend told me about this product. He had used it in several vehicles with good results so I took his word and ordered a 32oz bottle to try. I have used it in the engine, transmission, power steering systems and rear ends of three vehicles and am astounded by the differance it's made in every one!
I'm not afiliated with the company in any way other than being a customer.
Their website, www.gonmf.com has a lot of information and quite convincing videos that will tell you about the product and it's performance. I'm just throwing this out there and telling you that I'm sold on it.

[Protagonist]

It appears that they've got it backwards. Triboelectric effects (static electricity caused by friction) is a well-known and much-studied field. We've all done it— accidentally or deliberately— by shuffling our feet across a carpet and then getting shocked when we touch a doorknob or another person.

Friction in moving parts can cause static electricity, but static electricity doesn't cause friction in moving parts. So this mystery liquid— ingredients undisclosed— somehow eliminates the cause by eliminating the effect. Too bad physics don't work that way.

I'm not convinced. To me it seems like the motor vehicle equivalent of snake oil.

The only way I would try it is if I was given a sample for free and allowed to test it in two identical vehicles driven on identical routes under identical conditions, one with the stuff and one without, and then tear the engines apart and compare the parts under a microscope to see if there's an actual beneficial effect or just an imagined effect based on wanting the stuff to work.

[rmkrum]

Protag, FYI, the motor vehicle equivalent of 'snake oil' is "Mouse Milk". That includes anti-friction additives, stuff claimed to 're-plate' metal inside cylinders, or give fantastic improvements to gas mileage. The "J. C. Witless" catalog used to devote page after page to this stuff...

And it's usually highly promoted, high priced, and performance claims are basically not based on any scientific testing or evaluation....but folks use it, and the placebo effect puts a halo on it, I suspect.

[markdoane]

Interesting product and a pretty pricey oil additive.

I usually read these as snake oil, but a little research shows there may be some validity to the claims.

Here is some work done at Oak Ridge that seems to support the theory, but there is no way to know if the NMF product contains any of the material, which is patented.

[John Woodrow]

Well friends, I understand your scepticism. However, I am no amature when it comes to mechanical stuff and I'm telling you that this stuff works wonders. Apparently, you don't believe all of the incredible testimony in videos on their site. OK. My 50 years of being intimately involved in high end vehicles of all kinds from cars and boats and motor coaches and aircraft of all sorts apparently still brings me up short of being able to determine if something works or not.
I'm sure your armchair scientific knowledge trumps my experience. So be it.

[John Woodrow]

Originally Posted by Boxite

Soooo, let me see if I understand you correctly.... YOu have a vehicle which is giving you NO PROBLEMS and your "friend" has also not lost a vehicle in which he has poured the stuff >...(which must be conclusive, Heh?)... and now you've bought the stuff and it's not destroyed YOUR vehicle which had no problems (and hasn't appeared to create one despite your short-term useage of the product) ... and so ...it MUST BE WONDERFUL STUFF...???

Right. It's wonderfuld stuff all right... for the SELLER! (Didn't do anything for you either way ...other than lighten your wallet and expose you to the rest of us as gullible..?? Have I got that right.?

I have an even MORE fantastic deal for you. I have a product I will ship directly to you.... I'll even pay the freight.... and all you have to do is pour it all over your vehicle and wipe it off with a towel (included) and your vehicle will absolutely be shinier and cleaner and prettier and I'll guarantee this product to never cause harm to your vehicle's finish. SEnd $100 to me and you'll receive this magic stuff in only two days. All you have to do is get a plastic bucket, and add water to the product before pouring it on your vehicle. AND as a BONUS your vehicle will run twice as long as it would have previously.
YeAH... THAT'S THE TICKET....TWICE AS LONG as it would have otherwise. PM me for the address to send your money.

Boxite; My Porsche Boxster S had a stiff shifting transmission. After adding NMF, it was fixed. Shifts smoothly now. Mercedes E350 ran and shifted fine. After adding NMF, it smoothed out and went from fine to outstanding. I have enlightened several car guy friends who have been able to afford the entry price to try it and they have, every one of them, been highly impressed.
I'm sure however that you are right in your acessment so trying it would be futile and only serve to lighten your wallet.. Merry Christmas!

[John Woodrow]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

It appears that they've got it backwards. Triboelectric effects (static electricity caused by friction) is a well-known and much-studied field. We've all done it— accidentally or deliberately— by shuffling our feet across a carpet and then getting shocked when we touch a doorknob or another person.

Friction in moving parts can cause static electricity, but static electricity doesn't cause friction in moving parts. So this mystery liquid— ingredients undisclosed— somehow eliminates the cause by eliminating the effect. Too bad physics don't work that way.

I'm not convinced. To me it seems like the motor vehicle equivalent of snake oil.

The only way I would try it is if I was given a sample for free and allowed to test it in two identical vehicles driven on identical routes under identical conditions, one with the stuff and one without, and then tear the engines apart and compare the parts under a microscope to see if there's an actual beneficial effect or just an imagined effect based on wanting the stuff to work.

Protagonist; Did you take the time to watch the videos on the site showing temperature results from before and after racing temperatures? Apparently, they were all lies. My experience however supports their findings. YMMV

[Wayne&Sam]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Protag, FYI, the motor vehicle equivalent of 'snake oil' is "Mouse Milk". That includes anti-friction additives, stuff claimed to 're-plate' metal inside cylinders, or give fantastic improvements to gas mileage. The "J. C. Witless" catalog used to devote page after page to this stuff...

And it's usually highly promoted, high priced, and performance claims are basically not based on any scientific testing or evaluation....but folks use it, and the placebo effect puts a halo on it, I suspect.

We used to say that if you bought everything in the JC Whitney catalog you’d get 247mpg.

[John Woodrow]

Originally Posted by markdoane

Interesting product and a pretty pricey oil additive.

I usually read these as snake oil, but a little research shows there may be some validity to the claims.

Here is some work done at Oak Ridge that seems to support the theory, but there is no way to know if the NMF product contains any of the material, which is patented.

Mark; Thanks for the link to the government sponsored testing supporting the ionic treatment. I have no idea what comprises the NMF product, but the results I've experienced seem similar to their findings.

[jcl]

This product is the very definition of snake oil. No scientific tests, let alone third party ones. No engineering basis for the claims made. Secret ingredients. All testimonials offered are by customers, who are reportedly paid for their opinions, whether by product or cash. Lots of scientific words in the science video, but the words were simply strung together, they didn’t make a case for anything.

What is the compatibility of this product with a highly engineered modern lubricant? What is the base stock? What is the effect of the additive vs the solution it is carried in?

The video did have a demo of gyroscopic effects of a bicycle wheel held by a pair of vice grips, which was fun, but the inventor didn’t explain what that had to do with anything he was claiming. He said it represented a harmonic balancer on a crankshaft. Because both are round and spin?

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by John Woodrow

Protagonist; Did you take the time to watch the videos on the site showing temperature results from before and after racing temperatures? Apparently, they were all lies. My experience however supports their findings. YMMV

I never called anyone a liar. I said I'm not convinced. Don't take dissenting opinions personally.

I'm still not convinced that the product would do the least bit of good for the average driver. In fact, if my Airstream Interstate's diesel engine ran cooler, then I'd face a problem of wet-stacking, with incomplete combustion due to low cylinder temperatures.

[GCinSC2]

Nope didn't look at sources or any product info. But what doesn't pass my smell test is how any ONE single additive can work on an engine, trans, steering and rear ended. All use different fluids and environments.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

Nope didn't look at sources or any product info. But what doesn't pass my smell test is how any ONE single additive can work on an engine, trans, steering and rear ended. All use different fluids and environments.

But that was the fun part of the manufacturer’s claim. It apparently doesn’t work on the lubricant, it works on the metal. It lines up all the electrons to face the same way, so that two pieces of metal no longer touch, the repel each other so there is no metal to metal contact. Sort of like a maglev train, it seems.

The first question I had is why is there metal to metal contact? What happened to the lubricant?

[rmkrum]

And, I'm sorry to report that those nice electrons near the surface of the metal parts are NOT going to stop orbiting the nucleus of the individual atoms and all line up all facing the same way...sounds suspiciously like pseudo-science to me...

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Wayne&Sam

We used to say that if you bought everything in the JC Whitney catalog you’d get 247mpg.

Yep and last forever, and I would have drive that old junk forever, and you would never have buy any gas.......if it’s too good to be true,it usually isn’t...remember the STP and motor honey, bardahl engine overhaul....LOL....

[aftermath]

This reminds me of a story about a guy I worked with. He read somewhere, from some scientific study that if you taped a couple of magnets to your fuel line your mileage would shoot up! You see, the magnets somehow aligned the electrons in the gasoline which made it burn more efficiently. The story went on with the usual conspiracy theory that the government knew all about this but didn't want the public to know. Something about harming the oil industry.

My coworker did this and swore that it really helped him and had the numbers to back it up after a trip to California. I have been waiting about two decades for this to come on the market. Hmmmm.....still waiting. This guy has since sold his Oldsmobile station wagon and got something that got better mileage. Snake oil comes in many forms, some of it is actually oil.

[John Woodrow]

Guys, I understand your scepticism. There are a lot of "snake oil" products out there that are simply marketed to separate you from your hard earned money. I get that. Two things are worth noting however. 1) This product comes with a 100% money back guarantee as spelled out on their website. 2) I'm telling you that this stuff works and works well. Now, you can choose to move along and even think that I must be wearing a tin foil hat. If you do, it's no sweat off my nose. You'll be the one missing out. Think about that. Watch the videos again and tell yourelf that it's all smoke and mirrors by paid actors, which implies strongly that they are lying. They are not, and neither am I.
Best wishes to all of you for a very Merry Christmas and a great 2018!

[CRH]

That sure is expensive snake oil. I am sure at that price they don't mind giving a few refunds on the money back guarantee.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by markdoane

Interesting product and a pretty pricey oil additive.

I usually read these as snake oil, but a little research shows there may be some validity to the claims.

Here is some work done at Oak Ridge that seems to support the theory, but there is no way to know if the NMF product contains any of the material, which is patented.

Agreed this stuff looks interesting. Iconic liquids have been around for a long time as chemical compounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_liquid

That Oak Ridge presentation seems to imply they could be first to make the stuff work with hydrocarbon oils:
"Mutual miscibility with hydrocarbon oils (first in the literature)"

I looked at the patent and it would cover a product like NMF, put there is no mention of the patent on NMFs web site. I sent them a note asking if their product is related to the Oak Ridge funded research and patent.

I'll also give their CEO, Joe Lehnerd, credit for an honest answer to questions on the Amazon sales site:
"NMF is effective as long as the base lubricant is unchanged. So, for example, in places that oil lasts a very long time such as in transmissions, differentials, power steering, and hubs, NMF remains effective for that time. In engines, NMF is effective until the oil is changed. Then you add fresh NMF."

NMF is probably best for augmenting lubes other than engine oils. It comes down to a classic cost-benefit trade. At $2.80 per once does NMF provide enough gain to be worth adding over $36 to the cost of an oil change on my Interstate Sprinter that hold 13 quarts of engine oil?

[John Woodrow]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Agreed this stuff looks interesting. Iconic liquids have been around for a long time as chemical compounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_liquid

That Oak Ridge presentation seems to imply they could be first to make the stuff work with hydrocarbon oils:
"Mutual miscibility with hydrocarbon oils (first in the literature)"

I looked at the patent and it would cover a product like NMF, put there is no mention of the patent on NMFs web site. I sent them a note asking if their product is related to the Oak Ridge funded research and patent.

I'll also give their CEO, Joe Lehnerd, credit for an honest answer to questions on the Amazon sales site:
"NMF is effective as long as the base lubricant is unchanged. So, for example, in places that oil lasts a very long time such as in transmissions, differentials, power steering, and hubs, NMF remains effective for that time. In engines, NMF is effective until the oil is changed. Then you add fresh NMF."

NMF is probably best for augmenting lubes other than engine oils. It comes down to a classic cost-benefit trade. At $2.80 per once does NMF provide enough gain to be worth adding over $36 to the cost of an oil change on my Interstate Sprinter that hold 13 quarts of engine oil?

Although I have not had it in any of my vehicles long enough to need to change oil, they do address that on their web site. They indicate that the first oil change will be dirty since it has removed contaminates from the engine. After the first change, they reccomend changing filter only for several change intervals indicating that it will actually pay for itself in oil costs alone. On top of that, I have experienced first hand reduced temperatures, wear and increased performance and fuel economy.
One of the several vehicles I've used it in is my GF's 2010 Honda CR-V with 235K miles on it. This last year, it developed a intermittant harmonic vibration that would occur frequently for maybe 5 to 10 seconds. I had the transmission serviced about three months ago with new filer and fluid which lessened the severity and maybe the frequency a little but it was still there. Last week, I added 3oz of this magic sauce to the transmission and 8oz to the engine. After driving it for about 30 miles, the change was incredible. It now runs so smoothly and the vibration is completely gone.
I would, in a heart beat, pay an additional $22.40 per oil change for the benfits it provides. I'd gladly pay twice that.