"Winterize" in a mild Climate

[bennu36]

today I looks like I will be winerizing Morrison ( yes my intersate has a name) for the first time. We have fairly mild winters in in the Northwet ( not a typo) but we can get the occasional over night low below freezing. So the questionin is how and where I should use antifreeze. I have the tools to use presureized air and then just pour some in the gray water and pump it out via the dump out. Draining the water heater is not really an issue. But can I get the fresh water tank empty enough with out having to get under the coach, I really dont have a place to do that and addd to that I am old and fat. And jut how bad does this stuff taste any way ? What do those of you that live in he more mild places do ? Protag?

[Punch]

Having lived about 70 miles south of you for 18 years I would say winterize fully. I can remember 6 degree nights and frozen buried water pipes. Additionally, if you are using your RV on the road regularly through the winter, remember that when you are driving at 60 or 70, even if the air temperature isn't that low, (say 20 degrees, a fairly regular winter temperature in western Oregon), the wind chill factor will be very large. Don't risk burst pipes or water heater tank: for half an hour's work you'll have peace of mind.

[Lumatic]

Originally Posted by bennu36

today I looks like I will be winerizing Morrison ( yes my intersate has a name) for the first time.

As in Jim?

Originally Posted by bennu36

So the questionin is how and where I should use antifreeze.?

Where you really need the anitfreeze is in the plumbing lines which can freeze, expand and crack the lines.

[loudruff]

For $1.99 buy the gallon or two of RV antifreeze and put in the time. It will save you hundreds and the stress of having a water line burst later on if the temperatures happen to drop. Your water heater should have a bypass valve on it so that you do not fill that with RV goop. Make sure to get the shower drain with the RV antifreeze. OR...you could just go south and spend time, some place warm and nice....for the winter.

[HowieE]

If your hot water heater has a Bypass Valve move it to the winter position. Drain the Hot water tank. If you do not have a winter bypass valve get on installed before you start or you will need 7 gallon of antifreeze after you have drained the hot water heater and closed it and still may not get a good job.

Use your air adapter to blow out all lines by opening one faucet, closest to the city input first, at a time, hot and cold side, till just droplet are showing. If you have a water filter remove the cartridge and put the winter cap on before blowing out the lines.

Disconnect the input line to the pump and with a tube in a gallon of anti freeze pump the antifreeze in. Open each faucet one at a time till antifreeze comes out. This includes the toilet and spray hose. Replace the input line to the pump.

Drain the water tank from the outside. You should be able to reach it without a lift.

Drain the gray and black tanks.

Put antifreeze in all traps. I use

In the spring just run water till the the pink is gone. Replace water filter cartridge.

Once the pik is out move the hot water heater valve to the normal position. Just crack it and let it fill or you will stir up the sediment on the bottom of the tank.

You may see a reduced water flow at some faucets. remove the screen and clean if necessary.

[Bikerbill]

Sorry to say that wind chill for what I know only affects living-breathing people and animals. Inanimate objects are not affected by wind chill. If in doubt, Google it. So as long as the temp is above freezing even with 30 mph wind, the temp is still above freezing.

[Punch]

Originally Posted by Bikerbill

Sorry to say that wind chill for what I know only affects living-breathing people and animals. Inanimate objects are not affected by wind chill. If in doubt, Google it. So as long as the temp is above freezing even with 30 mph wind, the temp is still above freezing.

Don't be sorry! Google can provide you with any answer you wish, but in this case we only need to use a little common sense and experience:

Wind chill applied to humans is expressed as a "feels like" temperature. However, the actual effect that makes wind chill dangerous, and for you to be more likely to suffer from hypothermia at a given temperature if there is a significant wind than if there isn't, is the effect of increasing the rate of heat loss from your body. And this would be wind chill whether you "felt like" it was a certain temperature, or whether you were dead drunk lying on a street corner and unaware of what it felt like. So, for the OP's vehicle, as he drives along at 60 mph, say at a temperature of 20F, then the rate of cooling of his water pipes will be far greater than if he was parked.

I used the term wind chill simply because that is the least wordy way of putting it, as opposed to the long-drawn-out explanation above.

(And if you check back in my earlier post, you will see that 20F is the temperature I was using as an example.... nothing about it being above freezing.)

[PharmGeek]

I live in Birmingham Alabama - just picked up my new AS - trying to decide this as well - we get a few cold snap freezes in winter - Bit I want to camp in winter - guess I might just run the furnace if it gets cold - arrrr - not sure

[Ntex]

Same question. This is our first winter with an Airstream. We are in Austin and it never occurred to me that we would need to winterize. But we do get a few freezes every year...usually only into the 20s and no more than a couple of days in a row. Does that mean we need to winterize? I hope Pahaska responds to this regarding his experience. His is stored just down the row from ours.

[Lily&Me]

We on occasion experience dips below freezing when we are home in late October but not yet ready to shut down for a couple of months. Tanks are drained, never had any problem.

We are then fully winterized when the Interstate is in storage Nov-Jan 9-10 or so, fully de-winterizing once south.

We have camped in temperatures that dipped below freezing, and never had any problems within the Interstate.

The rule of thumb we have always heard is "if it is warm enough for you it is warm enough to keep things from freezing." That has always held true.

The important thing is to fill your tank and bring your hoses and filter in.


Maggie

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by bennu36

today I looks like I will be winerizing Morrison ( yes my intersate has a name) for the first time. We have fairly mild winters in in the Northwet ( not a typo) but we can get the occasional over night low below freezing. So the questionin is how and where I should use antifreeze. I have the tools to use presureized air and then just pour some in the gray water and pump it out via the dump out. Draining the water heater is not really an issue. But can I get the fresh water tank empty enough with out having to get under the coach, I really dont have a place to do that and addd to that I am old and fat. And just how bad does this stuff taste any way ? What do those of you that live in he more mild places do ? Protag?

I have no sympathy for old and fat, being old and fat myself, with bad knees besides. You don't have to crawl underneath to drain the fresh tank, just lie down alongside and reach under, as long as you can position your head so you can see the plug.

Best way is run the water pump until it starts sucking air, which minimizes the amount of water you have to drain from the tank. I make it easy on myself, by running the exterior shower to drain the tank, so I don't have to make another trip to the dump station to empty a holding tank as I would if I ran the water into a sink or toilet. Then lie down on the ground (or better on a roll-around garage creeper, but I don't have one of those) and reach under to drain the tank. The tank plug is plastic, and easy to mess up, so use a socket set with six-sided, not twelve-sided, sockets. Because it's clean water, you can dump it anywhere. I do it in my apartment complex's parking lot, no problem.

Here's my plan for this winter… Check the 10-day extended forecast every Saturday morning on the Weather Channel's web page. If an overnight low is predicted to be below freezing any time during the coming week, I'll drain everything and blow out the lines.

If the daytime high is also predicted to be below freezing— or if the temperature is predicted to drop to below 27°F overnight— I'll add antifreeze to the holding tanks, and winterize the macerator pump and discharge hose (the black tank flush fitting will have already been blown out along with the fresh water system). Note that, since I'll have used the exterior shower to mostly drain the fresh tank, I'll need to blow out that fitting as well, so I'll need to leave the shower hose hooked up until I'm done. The hose itself doesn't need to be blown out, but my fitting can't be blown out unless the hose is attached, due to the design of the fitting.

So far I've never had to add antifreeze to the fresh water system; draining and thoroughly blowing out the lines has been good enough. So far. The pump itself is the mot vulnerable part, or at least the most expensive to fix and the hardest to blow dry with compressed air, so if I need to add antifreeze I'll do it with low-point drains open, so I don't need to pump water through the whole system, just from the pump to the first low-point drain. Doesn't matter if the antifreeze runs out the drain, as long as everything still wet inside the pump is antifreeze.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by bennu36

today I looks like I will be winerizing Morrison ( yes my intersate has a name) for the first time.

It just now dawned on me. Van Morrison! Duh! Perfect name for an Interstate van!

[avanti]

Two things:

1) It is correct that wind will cause warm inanimate objects to cool down faster. But it is also correct that unless you are trying to scoot from one warm environment to another, this doesn't matter. The water in your pipes and tanks will never get below the actual, thermometer-measured ambient temperature, wind or no. The laws of thermodynamics ensure this. There is no extra "wind chill" temperature drop.

2) FWIW: I live in a cold environment, and I have NEVER used antifreeze in the potable water system. Properly blowing out the system, draining all the tanks (including water heater, of course) and running the pump dry has always proven adequate, at least for me. The only place where antifreeze is necessary in in the drain traps, where a few cups are needed to displace the water.

[Lumatic]

Originally Posted by avanti

Two things:

1) It is correct that wind will cause warm inanimate objects to cool down faster.

2) FWIW: I live in a cold environment, and I have NEVER used antifreeze in the potable water system.

My two things:
1.Wind will increase heat loss through conductivity on anything. With a body you also have increased evaporation and cooling of moisture on the skin.

2.I'm sure you are right but I am a belt and suspenders man and will stick to the antifreeze for peace of mind.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Lumatic

1.Wind will increase heat loss through conductivity on anything. With a body you also have increased evaporation and cooling of moisture on the skin.

The difference is, a live body (person or non-lizard pet) has a metabolism that tries to maintain its temperature, so faster heat loss means the metabolism has to work harder. That's why living bodies are susceptible to wind chill. But even with a live body, you can't cool it down lower than the ambient temperature. If the outside temperature is 40°F, a human body will not get any colder than 40°F, either, even with a wind chill of 0°F.

2.I'm sure you are right but I am a belt and suspenders man and will stick to the antifreeze for peace of mind.

There is no one right answer when it comes to winterizing. Depending on where you live, whether you have an air compressor that will do the job, and how cautious you want to be, there is a wide spectrum between winterizing by blowing out the lines, winterizing by adding antifreeze, or a combination of the two. I don't routinely add antifreeze to my freshwater system, but I'll never say anyone is wrong who does.

[HowieE]

Lets be safe here.

There are several methods that do not use antifreeze and yes they may work for the individual using a given method. But they should not be applied across the board.

A simple blow down will leave water in the pump head and the line leading to and from the pump. This can leave several feet of piping unprotected depending on your rigs layout.

Draining only again leaves the pump head and the pump siphon tube full of water. If you have a water filter that will remain full of water.

Those with autofill systems have to clear the solenoid valve and the copper tube leading to the freshwater tank. That will be the first thing to freeze.

Doing nothing and leaving the system full of water in temperate areas. A quick deep freeze hits while you are out of town and you have a problem.

It is just not worth if to save $5.00 for a gallon of antifreeze and run the risk. A freeze is not like a blown light bulb it will not occur where it is easy and cheap to fix.

[Skater]

Originally Posted by Punch

So, for the OP's vehicle, as he drives along at 60 mph, say at a temperature of 20F, then the rate of cooling of his water pipes will be far greater than if he was parked.

There are pipes outside the camper in the wind? Airstream is usually pretty good to prevent that, as much as possible...

[Punch]

Originally Posted by Skater

There are pipes outside the camper in the wind? Airstream is usually pretty good to prevent that, as much as possible...

Oh dear me.

The Airstream is insulated, but the insulation only has a certain R value (whatever that may be). The vehicle when driving will be warmed from the inside, and cooled from the outside. I am not familiar with the Sprinter-style Airsteams, but if anything like the LY`s and Classics, unless you have the furnace on, the rear gets relatively cool. If the air temperature is fairly low, say 20F, then the lowest temperature possible within the Airstream would be 20F. But the pipes will be within closets and behind partitions, and I doubt if there is ducted warm air into those spaces. Therefore cooling within these spaces that contain the pipes will be faster if you are driving at 60 mph than if you are stationary. Does that make any sense to you whatsoever?

In addition, the hot water tank is always relatively exposed to outside temperatures, and that would be a primary concern to me, if it had not been drained, and if it had also not been used (i.e. heated) in a while.

I`d agree that there is only a small chance of freezing in western Oregon, but I have lived through at least 3 periods in that area when the temperature was low for a week or more to a degree that 3 foot deep water pipes froze (that earth is a pretty good insulator too) and when I would think that it would be an unnecessary risk not to winterize thoroughly, including draining the hot water tank (easy enough job).

On one of those nice $150k Mercedes units, what damage do you think cost-wise that an undetected split water pipe could do in say a 24 hour period? And what do you think your insurance company might say if some assessor had the sudden thought to ask you if you had winterized the vehicle?

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Punch

Having lived about 70 miles south of you for 18 years I would say winterize fully. I can remember 6 degree nights and frozen buried water pipes. Don't risk burst pipes or water heater tank: for half an hour's work you'll have peace of mind.

Looking up statistics for Portland, OR…
Average low temps are above freezing year-round, if only barely in December~January.
Record low temps are below freezing from November through May, with the lowest ever being -3°F in February.

Statistics for my neck of the woods, New Orleans…
Average low temperature is above 40°F year-round.
Record low temperature is below freezing November through March, with the lowest ever being 11°F in December.

I don't winterize based on average or record lows, however. Based on average temps, I'd have a problem in colder-than-average years. Based on record temps, I'd be winterized already, and stay that way until after Mardi Gras, rather than taking advantage of our year-round campgrounds. That's why I check the 10-day extended forecast, and winterize only when the extended forecast shows freezing temps coming within 10 days.

I consider it "risk management." Full winterizing, belt-and-suspenders I would consider "risk avoidance." Risk avoidance is safer than risk management, but limits my options too much. There are too many long holiday weekends in winter when I have extra time off from work and can go camping, from Thanksgiving to Mardi Gras, and I have trips planned for every blessed one of them.

Because of my scheduled trips, in a cold winter I may end up winterizing four or five times, rather than the once that our northern brethren experience. So for me, all that antifreeze would really add up, and so would the time spent, if I went the full "risk avoidance" route every time I winterize.

[Punch]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

Looking up statistics for Portland, OR…
Average low temps are above freezing year-round, if only barely in December~January.
Record low temps are below freezing from November through May, with the lowest ever being -3°F in February.

Statistics for my neck of the woods, New Orleans…
Average low temperature is above 40°F year-round.
Record low temperature is below freezing November through March, with the lowest ever being 11°F in December.

Yep, if I lived where you live I wouldn`t bother winterizing. And one or two cold days in a row are not significant, the potential problems are likely when there is a string of 5 or more days with night time temperatures in the low teens or less.

It`s just a matter of common sense, and not spoiling the ship for a ha`porth of tar.