New to Diesel ....

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Marks71

My manual is different. It says the first message "Check Diesel Exhaust Fluid" will appear when DEF has dropped below 1.5 gal. Then the icon, 3 beeps, and XX starts remaining, will be the second message, which indicates DEF has dropped below 0.8 gal, which will allow 1200 more miles to be driven.

That's actually not that different. You still get the check message at 1.5 gallons left, and the countdown-to-breakdown at 0.8 gallons left.

Your manual actually makes the situation clearer. Apparently I've been interpreting my manual incorrectly but more conservatively; I now assume from what you've reported that I would have 1000 miles on 0.7 gallons before the countdown begins, and 1200 miles more on the remaining 0.8 gallons after the countdown begins. Which makes more sense based on my typical DEF consumption. 2200 miles on 1.5 gallons of DEF is more reasonable than 1000 miles on 1.5 gallons.

But it also means that we can't rely on that "16 starts remaining." Since I can routinely drive over 350 miles on a tank before I even begin hunting for a service station or truck stop, all those miles on one start, it's possible that if we wait for the countdown to begin, we might only have 3 or 4 starts before we run out of DEF and the counter goes all the way down to 0 while skipping the intervening numbers. All the more reason to hunt up more DEF when the "DEF Chk" message first comes on, rather than waiting for the countdown.

[Marks71]

OK thanks everyone for weighing in and sharing your own calculations and experience. I think I have a good sense now of estimating how much I've used and have left, and what to do about it.

THANKS

[Marks71]

For what it's worth:
* just a bit less than 2 gallons for our first 5000 miles
* a bit less than 1/2 a gallon for most recent 900 miles

So: I'm averaging ~ 1 gallon per 2500 miles; or another way to l look at it: slightly less than 1% of fuel consumption. (which strikes me as very low?!)

In sync w/ this comment from a MB owners' forum

"Our 2010 ML uses about 4 - 5 gallons of DEF per 10,000 miles over our first 50,000 miles"

[Marks71]

More on biofuel after I stopped at 5 places on 2 interstates in Illinois near Chicago, and could only find diesel with bio blend between 5-20% I did NOT use it, and now am back in storage with a quarter of a tank and not sure where to fill up next.

So in reading the MB website about biofuels, here's what they say:

Mercedes-Benz USA approves the use of B5 according to ASTM specification D975 [Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) with a maximum of up to 5% biodiesel] in all Common Rail Injection (CDI) and BlueTEC® diesel engines.
The only approved processed biodiesel for B5 blending is one that meets the ASTM D6751 specification, to prevent damage to the engine and fuel system from deposits and/or corrosion.
The use of diesel fuels containing a higher percentage of biodiesel, (B6 to B20) according to ASTM D7467 as well as straight biodiesel (B100) according to ASTM D6751 may cause severe damage to your engine and fuel system, and are not approved by Mercedes-Benz.
The Mercedes-Benz New Vehicle Limited Warranty generally does not cover damage caused by the use of fuels that do not meet Mercedes-Benz approved fuel standards.
If customers cannot avoid the use of biodiesel fuel between B6 and B20, it’s critical for them to monitor their engine oil level and engine running performance.
Customers of Mercedes-Benz vehicles must use only qualified commercial brand fuels that meet Mercedes-Benz approved fuel standards. Biodiesel fuel from non-name brand stations must not be used.
Important: Fuel that contains any percentage of “home brewed” biodiesel does not meet Mercedes-Benz fuel standards and must never be used in Mercedes-Benz vehicles.

[X New Yorker]

Hi - I have been filling up my Interstate when I get home so I'm ready to go for the next trip. Is that a bad idea? Will my fuel go bad just sitting there? If so, how long is it safe to let it sit? Thanks all.

[John Millner]

I too live in Illinois and know of one station in the western suburbs that had the correct fuel. After each trip I fill up with the good stuff but am "forced" to use the other on the road. I'm told that Shell diesel is the good stuff but when pulling up to the pump at the Shell station the diesel pump says "not a shell product" and has the 5 to 20 biodiesel. I too am looking for suggestions to find the correct fuel. Is there an app?

[HowieE]

Have you ever seen corn squeezens at a truck stop?
It is a question ruin your engine or let the corn farmers starve?

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by HowieE

It is a question ruin your engine or let the corn farmers starve?

Corn is not the only crop they can grow— other crops can grow in the same dirt that corn grows in— so I say if it's a choice between ruin my engine or let them starve, they're going to get awfully hungry. Sure as anything they're not going to pay for my ruined engine if I use their fuel, so why should I pay them to ruin my engine?

If anybody is interested, here is a link to a Mercedes Benz brochure regarding the issue of biodiesel fuel. But, no, it doesn't list sources for B5 or less, just explains why B20 is bad. Multiple reasons, some of which I didn't know.
https://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/Digital..._Brochure5.pdf
And a different, smaller brochure for Illinois residents…
http://biodiesel.org/docs/default-so...e.pdf?sfvrsn=2

[Marks71]

Originally Posted by John Millner

I too live in Illinois and know of one station in the western suburbs that had the correct fuel. After each trip I fill up with the good stuff but am "forced" to use the other on the road. I'm told that Shell diesel is the good stuff but when pulling up to the pump at the Shell station the diesel pump says "not a shell product" and has the 5 to 20 biodiesel. I too am looking for suggestions to find the correct fuel. Is there an app?

here's a link to the Google search: non-bio diesel fuel in Chicago

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...E7vTSjOA&hl=en

[73shark]

Originally Posted by HowieE

It is a question ruin your engine or let the corn farmers starve?

I didn't realize they used corn to make biodiesel. Figured it was probably soybeans or packing plant renderings.

The one and only reason that farmers are growing so much corn now instead of soybeans, wheat, oats, etc is ethanol. The US is the laughingstock of the world as we burn our food in are vehicles. Adding ethanol to gasoline is just wrong on so many levels most of which are gov't related. Makes about as much sense as burning coal to generate electricity to charge batteries for electric cars.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by 73shark

I didn't realize they used corn to make biodiesel. Figured it was probably soybeans or packing plant renderings.

All of that partially-hydrogenated vegetable oil (mostly made from corn) that no one wants to put in their bodies anymore goes in our diesel tanks instead.

[RubyDog]

Once had someone put 47 liters of gas in a diesel tank on a sailboat. We immediated isolated the tank (thankfully it had a master shutoff) and called a diesel mechanic. He said traces of gas were ok but larger amount could cause an explosion. Gas floats on diesel so we siphoned off the gas and diesel already in the tank (about 50 liters of diesel plus the 47 of gas). Filled the tank with diesel (150 liters). Siphoned almost all of that out. Filled it again and siphoned it again. Filled it, prayed, started up and everything ran fine. No idea if there are other approaches but that one worked for us. Fortunately we were at a large fuel dock for commercial vessels that had the equipment.

[73shark]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

All of that partially-hydrogenated vegetable oil (mostly made from corn) that no one wants to put in their bodies anymore goes in our diesel tanks instead.

Can they still get the oil after the ethanol process?

[dznf0g]

Ya'll do realize that Brazil has been E100 for a couple decades. Are you laughing at them?

[73shark]

No because they use an energy efficient (i.e. it takes less energy to make the ethanol than you get back unlike our corn-based ethanol) one stage process w/ sugar. Our gov't places a high tariff on imported sugar which is why everything here is made sweet using high fructose corn syrup. Which also partially explains the increase in obesity and diabetes in the US as the body doesn't process it very well.

Coca Cola bottled in Mexico uses cane sugar instead of high fructose corn syrup.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by 73shark

it takes less energy to make the ethanol than you get back unlike our corn-based ethanol) one stage process w/sugar.

Not true. That would violate the second law of thermodynamics.

It does take less energy to make ethanol from sugar than to make it from corn, but still more than the usable energy you get from burning the ethanol.

Thought exercise— if it took less energy to make sugar-based ethanol than the energy you get back from ethanol, then all sugar-based ethanol-manufacturing plants would RUN on ethanol because they'd be able to produce more ethanol than they would use themselves.

Energy efficiency in the fuel manufacturing/refining industry comes from using a non-portable energy source (such as hydroelectric power, wind power, or large-scale solar) to make a portable energy source (such as ethanol). NOT from using less energy to make fuel than you get by burning fuel.

[Sodbust]

As a farmer,, I feel I need to reply..

First,, about 10 years ago we were filling up our combine with its daily need of 150 gallons of diesel fuel.. One of my girls was in charge of filling while I was greasing up. I kept smelling gas.. The tank was almost full when I came to figure out we were pumping gas and not diesel.. I called our fuel man and he said they just figured out that a transport of fuel,, 7000 gallons was off loaded in the night into the wrong tank. Since harvest is more important than the wrong fuel I just added 4 gallons of transmission oil and ran out the day anyway with no damage.. Did lack some peak power but after a re fill the next day with good old #2 diesel we were back in the game again at 100%..

As for the bio fuel issue I feel this needs to be addressed.. First,, 98% of all field corn is used just for livestock feed.. Making ethanol from a bushel of corn yields almost 3 gallons of useable fuel.. The by product or mash,, is dried and 40% of the corns starting weight is still a very improved and high grade live stock feed. So factor it out we are using 60% of a bushel of corn and gaining 3 gallons of non imported fuel,,, and still end up with 40% of the feed volume.

Very little oil is in corn.. Less than 5% total weight over all.. So many other crops like sunflowers yield up to 43% oil content. Again, the meal left over after the crush is a very high protein ,, high grade livestock feed. Soybeans carrie around 10% oil content. Yes alot of beans are used for oil and over all more than sunflowers as the oil is too high a % to feed to livestock.

Most bio diesel is made using a chemical process that reacts with the heavy waxes to be removed and make it more like dino diesel.. Problem is a lot of mistakes are made and some solvents and such carry over into the finial fuel product for fuel system and engine damage and gives the bio diesel a bad name. Since the wax is the gun powder in the fuel,, taking most of it out also lowers the performance of the fuel greatly over good old dino #2 diesel.

After years of research in what other countries are doing for cheaper farm fuel,, Germany leads the pack and mostly use this process I adapted for our farms use.. The finial goal is to adjust the raw veggie oils thickness to match that of #2 dino fuel so the spray pattern of the injector gets a good flame front and clean burn.

Here is my web site for folks who wish to learn a little more about veggie oil for fuels. Bio-Diesel: Farm Grown Profit

This has been tested by a PhD from Fort Collins U,, and proven safe,, and with a higher performance than dino #2 diesel.

CSU researchers bridging gaps in biofuel production » Rocky Mountain Collegian

Sodbust,,,

[HowieE]

Please don't apply logic and the laws of physics. That will confuse people and cause they to question the government double speak.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Please don't apply logic and the laws of physics. That will confuse people and cause they to question the government double speak.

I don't question the government doublespeak; I dismiss it out of hand.

It's all George Orwell's fault anyway; he's the one who coined the term "doublespeak" in the classic novel "1984." Which is unfortunate, because if he had used double entendre instead of doublespeak the novel would have been much more fun to read.

[73shark]

My primary complaint is that if ethanol is such a great deal, then why does it have to be subsidized?

Secondary complaint is that it has less energy so it hurts mpg and it's bad for marine engines and small engines like trimmers, mowers, etc.