Is there an AS lemon law?

[rgwatkin]

I have owned my 2012 28ft Flying Cloud for about 13 months and put approx. 7k miles on it. In that time I have had the screws fall out of the closet door twice causing the entire door to come off, the stove hood fuses blow numerous times until AS figured out the fuse was undersized, the inverter fail, a LED light in the bedroom fail (poor solder joint), a wall section in the bathroom come off and damage another panel, the AC system fail, the heater produces a oily fog for which AS has not figured out what is wrong yet, the toilet seat loose as a result of the wrong dept of plastic bolt installed at the factory.

I am beginning to ask if there is a Lemon Law for trailers? Airstream has a long way to go before meeting acceptable manufacturing standards.

[Silverflames]

Have you contacted AS directly yet?

[SteveSueMac]

You should have received information about that in your "briefcase" of materials you got at delivery. Is the dealer able to fix these issues? You have 2 full years.

[overlander63]

California's lemon laws only apply to motorized vehicles, not travel trailers.

[hhendrix]

RV Lemon Law

[m.hony]

I had several issues at the beginning. Some were fixed by the dealer. Others I fixed myself through communication with Jackson Center. I even spoke with Dave Schuman on the phone. After all the original issues were resolved it has been 8 months of trouble free adventure. The reason I bought an Airstream in 2012 was that my previous other brand trailer had to go back to the dealer every week, sometimes 2 or 3 times for the same problem. That was annoying. So far so good with our new trailer- my last trailer...

[dkottum]

You've only got a couple of problems with Airstream assembly, it's the accessories that aren't performing. Good dealer service would be more helpful than a lemon law.

Talk to the folks at Airstream Customer Service, or email them. We only had a couple minor problems with our new 2012 Airstream, and they were very helpful getting them fixed.

doug k

[coazboyz]

Most RV owners are not aware of a United States federal law called the "Magnuson Moss Warranty Act". I have used this federal law to have an RV manufacture buy back a defective travel trailer. There are also law firms that specialize in RV lemon law issues.

[Snaken49]

RG,

Let me say upfront that I think that AS could a lot better with their Quality Control program. Even thought about offering them pro bono help from my consulting firm.

You didn't provide a lot of background info in your post. So I'm not going to assume anything as to whether this is your 1st AS or only travel trailer that you ever owned.

My 1st ever trailer was a 2008 25' FB Safari. Up to that point I had some experience with Some Other Brands (SOB) that friends owned and they all had huge durability issues within 3-4 years ranging from roof leaks, press-wood floors giving way from water damage, not to mention the incessant smell of the formaldehyde glue, fiber glass cracks, toilets falling through due faulty seals and so on and so on.

Those issues and the fact that almost 70% of AS ever built are still in use today coupled with an aircraft like construction drove equation to buy AS. I finally invested in the Safari and loved it. Sure there were minor issues like a shore power cable with reversed polarity, drain pipes that loosened up, water heater ignition that failed and drawers that wouldn't stay put while travelling etc. In each case I worked all of the issues out with a factory authorized warranty repair center at no charge.

I put a lot of miles on that trailer and sold it at very good price to upgrade to a 28' Flying Cloud. Again there were warranty repairs needed but in each case the AS factory reps were responsive and everything was taken care of to my satisfaction.

I also had problems with the mirrored door screws getting loose on the FC. I fixed them myself with LocTite to prevent it from happening again. The fact of the matter is that you own a house on wheels subject to a tremendous amount of stress and vibration while going down the road. Sure rivets are going fall out and screws are going to back out over time. But those are easy fixes and should be things you look for while doing preventive maintenance on your AS.

I will never ever buy an SOB or replace my Airstream unless I upgrade to something bigger or more upscale. To me it is the best trailer on the road regardless of the occasional flaws caused by hands on human construction techniques. I sincerely hope that things have worked out for you in the best possible way and you are enjoying your AS!

[ROBERT CROSS]

Town Hall Meeting


Quality Control


Bob

[John&Vicki]

I'm new to this game. Just bought an old (not vintage) '90 Excella. I've been messing around with old (vintage) Porsches for many years. Which is pretty much a hands on interest. I'm going into this thinking it will be pretty much a hands on interest also. Gotta think in SAE rather than metric though.

Probably lucky I didn't buy a new one. I'd expect everything to work all the time. Walked through a 25 footer a few days ago - it's certainly beautiful looking.

Poppy

[Snaken49]

Bob Cross,

The Town Hall Meeting was indeed interesting reading! Thanks for re-posting it!

There are a lot of Quality Control strategies, methods, techniques and procedures practiced across all segments of government and industry. But none of them will produce results beyond mediocre or worse yet they will fail without accountability. That means real leadership at the top of the company that is accountable to its managers and employees and employees accountable to each other and to their supervisors for the work they perform and its quality.

What all that means is that the top management of the company has to hire qualified workers, pay and treat them well, provide the right training and tools to do the job in an organized and safe work space. Most important of all they have to make employees an integral part QC process. They can do that by listening to their feedback and recommendations on product and process improvement. In this regard anonymous feedback systems can achieve great results in almost any industry environment.

But most important of all the President, CEO or CFO cannot surround themselves with yes people who will tell them what they want to hear rather than the truth no matter how ugly or painful that may be. If they listen to yes people they will fail and bring the company down. Just look at Enron and others that went down that path.

Over the course of my work and military experience have been subjected to many failed programs and those that use checklists are the top of the failed list.

I did help implement a QC program in an industry sector that suffered from a high degree of human factor related failure problems. We found that 80% of those were caused by a willful disregard for established standards, policies and procedures. In many instances the first line supervisors and mangers were aware that shortcuts or deviations were taking place but they looked the other way to achieve "results" or kept quiet to remain popular with the employees. The implementation of a full accountability program while painful dramatically turned the situation around resulting in almost zero defects in short order.

I hope that the Town Hall exercise was the first step in a process to turn QC from a perceived Airstream negative into a real brand strength!

I think it is important for Bob W to understand that the AS poor QC "perception" is the reality no matter what the internal reporting good words or stats might say differently. And in the long term that does not bode well for a concept and product that deserves better.

Those of us who bought an Airstream expect and deserve the best! And this is achievable by Thor and Airstream. Bob W just needs to make it so!

[Gene]

Besides the federal lemon law, states have their own. Some are good, many are not. Check your state's law as well as the federal one.

Regardless what item fails, the manufacturer—Airstream—is responsible for choosing those items from the stove to the rivets—and should make good choices based on their experience in the industry. If they buy bad rivets, they should have known better; you cannot possibly have that expertise when you buy the trailer.

You are not expected to inspect every item or have the knowledge of who made what and whether it is any good. You make a product and offer it to the public and you are responsible for the whole thing. Airstream will tell you to contact the stove or water heater manufacturer if those products fail. But both Airstream and the manufacturer of the item are responsible. In real life, the manufacturer of a specific item will probably solve your problem faster, but it may be easier for you to press the dealer first who should pursue the warranty claims for you. Some items may be warranted for longer than Airstream's warranty, so you have to check both.

rg', you have a nasty array of problems and the dealer should be helping you. The "oily fog" from the furnace (or water heater?) sounds pretty serious and may be dangerous. I'd be very concerned about such strange behavior from any propane fueled item. We had a lot of problems the first 2 years. The dealer was bad, so we took the trailer to Ohio to have the Airstream Service Center fix the numerous warranty issues. They did a good job and we made the trip to Ohio as part of our travels. We were 1,400 miles away and I see you are another 1,000 or so, so it would be quite a burden to have to go that far. If your local dealer isn't helping, you have quite a few dealers in California to try.

Gene

[Skater]

Some of the problems mentioned in the original post in this thread are likely the result of poor quality by the component manufacturers - for example, you're just as likely to have a problem with the fridge in other brands of trailers as you are in Airstreams (barring an installation error of some kind, of course). I don't mean to give Airstream a free pass, they should be responsible for build quality issues, but at the same time they're not like cars, where the manufacturer has control over the entire build process for each component.

[Hansom-Man]

Yes there are QC issues to be sure. Kind of shocking if you've not had experience with other recreational items that are hand built. Bought a boat once and I swear I heard the dealer singing "sucker" as he laughed his way to the bank, never to be heard from again.

We purchased our AS second hand while it was still under warranty. There were a couple of minor issues and one big one (early floor rot). Was surprised when I called AS direct who spent 25 min discussing the problem and what to do about it. I stayed in contact with them via email for 2 weeks while they figured out the best spot for me to take it to for repair.

Once we agreed on a course of action, we (AS and I) actually conferenced the dealer svc mgr to make sure everyone was in the loop. Got my trailer back in 3 weeks better than new. Incidentally, I suspect AS realizes that they'll resolve the problem better than dealer services. Their first question was if I'd be willing to drive it to JC...

At the end of the day I'd still recommend AS (if you have the means ;-)). Most pleasure craft makers would have told me tough luck from the get go.

[ROBERT CROSS]

JC has done very good work for us also....on our 63 Safari, not warranty.

Having to return to the factory to have warranty repairs done correctly, does nothing to enhance the brand.

Improve both QC and the dealer network to match the price point. WWWD?

Bob

[Andrew T]

Hi Winemaker

To have that much coming loose in that amount of time my guess is either you are carrying 65PSI in your tires or you have a shifted belt in one or more of your tires. Either of these will cause substantial vibration in the Airstream that will do all sorts of things. Michelin P235/75R x 15" XL tires run at 45 PSI will likely solve most of your vibration issues.

The furnace is a very unusual item, how many hours has it run? Has anyone pulled the furnace out and checked for a foreign substance on the compustion chamber.

Andrew T

[Snaken49]

You may want to look at these other posts about smoke coming from the heater.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f240...ce-109516.html

Causes run from duct tape left near the heater to a light coat of oil on the duct work.

In any event a GOOD dealer prep would have found the problem if they bothered to run the heater for a few minutes. I found dealer preps to be sorely lacking and almost non-existent if they sell SOBs!

Probably the best thing to do when buying a new unit is to run through the dealer prep checklist while they watch so there is no question as to the condition of the trailer.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Hi Winemaker

To have that much coming loose in that amount of time my guess is either you are carrying 65PSI in your tires or you have a shifted belt in one or more of your tires. Either of these will cause substantial vibration in the Airstream that will do all sorts of things. Michelin P235/75R x 15" XL tires run at 45 PSI will likely solve most of your vibration issues.

The furnace is a very unusual item, how many hours has it run? Has anyone pulled the furnace out and checked for a foreign substance on the compustion chamber.

Andrew T

Andy,


Do you have any more info on the Michelin P235/75R 15XL tires?

I couldn't find any specs. and I am wondering if they would fit the wheel wells on my 2005 Classic 30 and also on the original Alcoa rims. And most important, if they would have sufficient load rating?

I presently have Towmax (I think that is what they are called) Load range E tires that I bought from Jackson Centre, but they are about due for replacement.

I would like to try the Maxxis tires that get good reviews on this forum, but cannot find them in Canada. I have been thinking I might buy them in Tucson this winter, but now you have me wondering about the Michelins! I suspect load rating might be the problem though.

Thanks - Brian M.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by Wingeezer

Andy,


Do you have any more info on the Michelin P235/75R 15XL tires?

I couldn't find any specs. and I am wondering if they would fit the wheel wells on my 2005 Classic 30 and also on the original Alcoa rims. And most important, if they would have sufficient load rating?

I presently have Towmax (I think that is what they are called) Load range E tires that I bought from Jackson Centre, but they are about due for replacement.

I would like to try the Maxxis tires that get good reviews on this forum, but cannot find them in Canada. I have been thinking I might buy them in Tucson this winter, but now you have me wondering about the Michelins! I suspect load rating might be the problem though.

Thanks - Brian M.

Brian,

I PM'd Andrew yesterday to check if these were the tires he was recommending. He confirmed and noted that it was a very good price.

I've had such good luck with the LTX's on the Burb it makes sense to consider Michelin for the AS, just can't rationalize new 16 wheels.
GYM's since 1989 on two AS's with nothing but a nail, got no complaints there.

This is also interesting reading....note Maxxis origin.

Bob