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Old 09-07-2010, 09:46 PM   #57
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Well, my 2 cents. I think this club is a great idea. I also think we're being naive if we think that this group is immune to some of the pit falls other clubs have expieirenced. I would be interested in hosting a TAC rally someday. We've hosted many wbcci unit rallies. But I will say, that without some type of liability insurance I will not. I would also hesitate to sign a contract with a campground if I was on the hook personally for 20 or more sites. The KISS principle is great, but some type of structure is needed for any orginization to function. It just doesn't need to be more complicated than the federal goverment. George
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:26 AM   #58
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Ah, Gene, ever the idealist.
Ah, Hamp', ever the cynic. Come into the light and enjoy moderated chaos.

Actually, I will be surprised if TAC stays unorganized, but let's see what happens.

And thank you, no one has called me an idealist in a long time. They usually call me a cynic. I have been reformed!

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Old 09-08-2010, 01:48 PM   #59
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It's like being the tallest person in short family, Gene. You only seem idealistic when standing next to me in the reunion picture.

I disagree (respectfully) with Dave. I don't think a "mission statement" matters. It's the kind of document that is generally written and promptly forgotten. My thought on "organizing principles" was mostly to push the discussions.

As amply evidenced by the WBCCI, rules matter. One way or another, rules will evolve. They always do. I think TAC (or any other nascent organization) is best served by having an open, transparent discussion about the philosophy behind any rules. And not to sound too pedantic, but a rule that there shall be no rules is still a rule.

If the real goal was to have a totally structure free group, why bother with a name? With bother with numbers? Essentially, the formless "group" existed before TAC was created. It exists now. If this was "enough," why TAC? I suspect there was something people wanted to have that could not be accomplished by simply drifting along with the Airforums.
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:11 PM   #60
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All the mission statement does is determine the nature, purpose and direction of TAC. It sounds like a lot, but it really isn't.

It isn't referred to much, down the road, because it's something that moves you forward. However, it is important to TAC's future because it's like a "Constitution - Lite Edition" that just reminds us of the boundaries that TAC wants to set for itself.
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Old 09-08-2010, 03:06 PM   #61
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Hamp, I dont want to show my ignorance (however I will,) I had to look up "pedantic." Thanks for the word of the day.

Now on topic, I do not understand why everyone is getting spun up about rules and putting anything in writing. We can stay a free will group without ridge constraints. I just believe that the group/club has a better chance of growing and surviving if there is direction. Those Friday night poker games are fun but once you loose the main members the group falls apart. Life happens and the current leaders will be diverted to other things. As it is set right now would TAC have a tough time to move forward? I thik it would. Right now when things get out of hand either Rob or Frank step in and they are the "leaders" elected or not.

The good thing is that we can start to have the conversations and do away with the venomous angry that comes across in the written word. All of this is a grand experiment to see if something could be created. Now we will see if it can grow and survive.

May God bless TAC....opps May a higher being real or not think kindly on TAC....Oh that is right no rules OK then May God Bless TAC.
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Old 09-08-2010, 03:52 PM   #62
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Actually, Dave, I think you're confusing the Declaration of Independence (a mission statement of sorts) with the Constitution (a rule book of sorts).

The Declaration is inspiring. We're all down with "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." The Constitution is where the rubber meets the road. Freedom is great. Something like:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

tells us what freedom really means. The Devil is always in the details, and the details of an organizations are its rules.

Contrary to what it might seem, I don't want to see TAC to have many rules. I also don't want to see TAC end badly because it became yet another failed experiment in structureless organization. Frankly, I think there's a fair amount of consensus on what TAC is and should be. Where I see disagreement is that some people think TAC can thrive and become a great club without any rules. Hey, we're all just doin' our own thang here.

Sooner or later, someone is goingt to need to make a decision about something "clubbish." Sure, you can decide to let Frank and Rob pack water, but there you it... a rule: The Founders shall decide. I like Frank and Rob, but the notion of Presidents-for-Life... doesn't strike me as a sustainable model. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:02 PM   #63
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Dave started something here that if not Dave then someone else it was just a matter of time.

The discussion on where the club is going and how it's going to get there is inevitable and the lessons of the WBCCI will be a driving force in what not to do but eventually there will have to be some sort of structure and Dave has taken the first step in pointing that out.

It does not sound to me like Dave is running for office but trying to guide the discussion and keep it alive.

I wish others that read but seldom post (the lurkers) would jump in and give their views.

For now the WBCCI is a major recruiter for TAC but for TAC to be successful TAC will have to grow and recruit new members. The day is coming when new members will have to come from the at large Airstream community and they will want to know about the structure of TAC before joining and to say there is no structure may be OK for now but it will not be a good recruiting tool in the future.
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:43 PM   #64
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It's simple.

1. We want to hold impromptu, self organized rallies on a local basis often throughout the year.

2. We want to hold more-planning-required rallies of a larger scale a couple of times a year.
  • How often?
  • How large?
  • Aimed at who?

3. We don't wan't officers, or the trappings of some self-appointing elite taking money for their own benefit.

1. and 3. require nothing more than we already have, but 2. requires a little more organization - in conflict with the aims of some.

The question then becomes: would those people who don't want "organization" deny the minimal organization to achieve 2. without personal liability?

If no, then TAC can proceed in one direction, create a really lightweight structure, and rely on "roles" instead of "people"... If yes, then TAC will continue as is, and people will do what they're doing now, until they tire, retire, or something else comes along.

For clarity, when I say "lightweight structure" I mean literally no rules requiring or forbidding anyone from doing anything, only rules required for the establishment of the club as a legal entity, creation of a "treasurer" position to take care of the money and make sure it's used ONLY for events, and not for the benefit of club positions IN ANY WAY.

I think that can be done on a single sheet of paper, in 12pt text, without changing anything that the no-rules people would want.

Everyone would get what they wanted.

Note: everyone gets what they want also, if we maintain the status quo. However, in that event, what TAC is doing now is all TAC will EVER do.

Comments?
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:18 PM   #65
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Yes Dave, That's exactly what I meant. Well put. George
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:44 PM   #66
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My (2) cents worth, I believe for TAC to continue to grow there will need to have a treasurer, Liability insurance is a must for rally's if you want people to volenteer as hosts, also there needs to be a method to schedule campgrounds for rally's, I don't think anyone would want to be liable for reserving 25 campsites without some sort of procedure for collecting funds. These procedures should be simple and understandable.
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:42 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
Sooner or later, someone is goingt to need to make a decision about something "clubbish." Sure, you can decide to let Frank and Rob pack water, but there you it... a rule: The Founders shall decide. I like Frank and Rob, but the notion of Presidents-for-Life... doesn't strike me as a sustainable model. Your mileage may vary.
Actually, let's not sidestep around the issue by using the word "president" as if this is actually some democratic organization, and rather let's just tell it like it is.

I love the idea of naming Frank and Rob "Dictators For Life."




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Old 09-08-2010, 09:59 PM   #68
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Papa Doc was "president for life". Haiti is not a good example to follow. Back to liability—

Liability is an issue. A liability insurer will want to know what kind of organization there is and since insurance companies don't like anything different than they are used to, they may well want a standard organization. Another thing to check is what will liability insurance cost. Insurers like a track record so they can set rates. An unorganized "national" club with no track record would have difficulty obtaining insurance and will have high premiums.

If there are any insurance experts out there, have I got it right?

Then you need dues, voluntary or mandatory. Take the annual premium and figure out how many members you need. A club that once was free will lose a lot of members once it isn't. If the dues have to be $50 or $75 to pay insurance premiums, who is going to stay—how many want regional rallies? By the way, though people complain about that other organization's dues, they are not unusual for a club. The real complaint is, I think, how the dues are spent. If all the TAC dues were to go to pay insurance premiums, who would like that?

Instead of getting a policy to cover all rallies and officers, you can get event insurance. But if you have more than a few events, that gets very, very expensive.

So, maybe the solution is not to have larger rallies.

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Old 09-08-2010, 11:11 PM   #69
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My wife proposed two elegant solutions to that problem: one is to make EVERYONE an officer *grins* which solves the entire problem because any rule that benefits an officer benefits everyone.

Her other elegant suggestion was: give the officers LESS rights than the members. Do not let officers vote. Do not let officers propose anything for a vote. Any member can propose for vote with no second needed. Only ordinary members can vote. Therefore, officers never have any influence to turn anything to their benefit - only members can do that.

That's IF TAC as a group ever decided to have officers.
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Old 09-09-2010, 07:00 AM   #70
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Dave,

I am confused, if everyone is an officer and only members can vote. Then no one can vote or propose anything? I can't help but laugh and to think that is what we have now. Everyone is in charge no one is in charge. (Meant to laugh not nitpick)
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