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Old 09-01-2010, 09:40 PM   #21
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I don't think anything said so far should discourage us from having a mission statement for TAC. A mission statement states our club's purpose for existence in concise language. There is nothing wrong with the rest of the world knowing what we are all about without having to read through 3,489 pages of posts (although I've REALLY enjoyed doing it ).

Why don't we start throwing out words and phrases that describe OUR club.

diverse individuals
fun and fellowship
exploring the world
passionate
a culture of simplicity

Everyone add your favorites.

Stephen and Heather

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Old 09-01-2010, 09:42 PM   #22
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and my only reply 2 u...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robandzoe View Post
...you've told us to move on.. we did that...
actually the suggestion was for YOU 2 move on, i have no idea who the "we" is...

and moving on was used as a metaphor for getting PAST the wb',

and any real or imaginary WRONG that was inflicted on YOU by them...

a LOT of folks felt badly for ya which created a ONE TIME opportunity.

so only u can decide IF moving on has happened...

but having an EVENT named for the other clubs guy

and having numbers and having some of the other comparablez to the REAL club...

is such a waste of the opportunity to do something HONESTLY different.

the record is pretty clear that for whatever reason you TOOK your ball and went home...

but why try REcreating the same game now ?

moving on COULD MEAN to something genuinely different and unique,

that is NOT based on the embers of anger and hurt from/toward the wb' ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robandzoe View Post
...Now, you're constantly being antagonistic towards the TAC - why?
the REAL record is that i seldom (almost NEVER) post anything regarding your personal club...

find the LAST post b4 today that supports ANY claim of "constantly being antagonistic "...

go ahead PROVE your claims, i'll wait.

when multiple threads popped up today on mission statements and divisions and chapters and so on...

the opportunity to REMIND YOU of the 'be different' was the objective that prompted posting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robandzoe View Post
... As I see it, there are at least 15 other clubs using AIR - do you attack them too?...
looks to me like there are SEVERAL UNITS of the wb in those 15...

which is ALL part of 1 club, the club you don't wanna be like, right ?

and the record suggests i've spent PLENTY of posts related TO the wb'...

attacking or supporting, depending on perspective of the readers.

again check the record.

all the tangential references to me NOT being in your club (therefore not welcome to post)

are no different than what the wb' often implies...

it THAT who you really wanna seem 2b like ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robandzoe View Post
phony???
REread the post, my notion is 'phony FORUM club...

not long ago when MANY here were asking for and promoting the idea of a cyber unit or a cyber CLUB...

that conducted any minimal/basic biz stuff online, but rallied together ....

you RIDICULED the idea and the people suggesting it...

repeatedly ridiculed that notion, while serving as a wb' elected one...

can you find/remember THOSE threads or shall i link them?

yes you repeatedly made fun of, ridiculed and otherwise attacked those notions and those people ...

and now u wanna discuss and conduct biz online HERE and in an OPEN FORUM...

sorry hypocritical might have a better term for this behavior,

but PHONY was the term and it might be clearer why soon...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robandzoe View Post
...so there are 350 of us phonies that all see something you don't...
there is NO reference in my post to the people wanting some/ANY affiliation.

i get WANTing an affiliation and the value that desire can create.

but trying to USE those folks to intentionally harm/attack or otherwise do negative bidding is sad.

and it's not something one would expect IF 'moving on' has really happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robandzoe View Post
...unless you want to be member 352 (got another request while typing this...) Just let me know...
this of course is the really UGLY sad part...

posting public invites while privately messages of HATE are sent ...

without getting DEEPER into that, it will continue to just play out ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robandzoe View Post
...too many times on here...
my recollection is that TOO MANY TIMES on here, when you were PART of the wb'...

any objection or suggestion for revolutionary change IN the wb' was heckled, attacked and rejected.

now that same thinking seems to be walking in a new set of slippers.

EMBRACE the idea of phony...

EXPAND the notion of phony...

USE the freedom phony brings...

to actually work toward something different.

OPEN up your thinking to what phony really COULD mean...

phony is good, or COULD be good...

in the way a motley fool is good.

trying to BE the wb' is NOT phoolish...

it's a mistake.

pretending 350 means something when it doesn't...

is 350 comforting? would 500 or 1500 be MORE comforting?

in fact WHY even count members, or even refer to them as members...

the folks who jumped IN mostly didn't do so...

to REcreate the wb or STICK IT in the collective wb' face...

they signed up 4 the idea and HOPE of something NOT like the other stuff...

maybe even phony.

so really move on,

but withOUT baggage from a real club...

if you can.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:07 PM   #23
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I think one of the very positive characteristics of TAC is that it has a very high percentage of members who are active and who attend rallies. Being a club of enthusiasm and positive vibes, we get to go and do things and have fun.

I love the idea that we could organize MANY birthday bashes on the same weekend around the country. There are enough Texas members to make that happen, and draw in folks from NM, CO, OK, KS, LA, AR and MS. That's a big area, but nobody would need to travel more than 12 or 16 hours if it's located centrally. We the members can make all sorts of things happen if we keep being motivated like we are.

Obviously, there will be people who just want to suck the fun out of it for us. All they succeed in doing is sucking the fun out of it for themselves. We all create the worlds we live in.

Getting back to the mission statement, I think it IS important because it defines us not just in what we're trying to do, but in those things we don't want to do. In the same way that businesses do best when they stick to their core business, clubs to best when they stick to their core focus and mission. Sometimes it's as important to define the boundaries of that mission as it is to define the center of it.

I think the following should be in there somewhere

"having the most fun with the least overhead"
"sharing know-how to organize and run successful rallies and caravans"
"creating a directory of people willing to host/help/tow/fix"
"putting out a magazine that shares our experiences"
"never being told what to do or not to do"

Anyone else?
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Old 09-02-2010, 04:56 AM   #24
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Uhm, Airforums hands out numbers... yours is 6867 2Air. No other info is given about you. You are a man hiding in the shadows... come out into the light. People just might enjoy your company.


Back to mission statement...
"The Airstreamer's Club is founded on the principle of having fun with our Airstream trailers. The Airstream's Club is also founded to provide fellowship to it's owners. The Airstreamer's Club is operated as a owners club by it's members for it's members, and all members are equals. No hierarchy exists, just a desire to participate on a comfortable level of each individual member."
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:38 AM   #25
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mission statements remind me of work!
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Old 09-02-2010, 07:21 AM   #26
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Dave,

I would like to say thank you for your contributions. It is tough to stay on track and stay motivated when so many negative comments are thrown your way for simply presenting a question/idea.

I am a very structure minded individual and often have difficulties excepting the laid back structure. However, many seem to like it this way.

My vote (if I get one) would be in favor of a Mission Statement simply to identify a goal even if the only statement is "camp, friends and fun."

Thanks again for your enthusiasm
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Old 09-02-2010, 07:29 AM   #27
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I'm dead serious about having fun.

And nothing else.

That's my Mission Statement.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:15 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 62overlander View Post
Back to mission statement...
"The Airstreamer's Club is founded on the principle of having fun with our Airstream trailers. The Airstream's Club is also founded to provide fellowship to it's owners. The Airstreamer's Club is operated as a owners club by it's members for it's members, and all members are equals. No hierarchy exists, just a desire to participate on a comfortable level of each individual member."
I like that one!


My personal mission statement... at least for today is the quote from Shawshank Redemption. "Get busy livin.. or get busy dying." I am ready to "Get busy livin" by traveling in Minerva!

However, it can and will change often.. depending on the mood...
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Old 09-02-2010, 04:39 PM   #29
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We vote for keeping it simple. A loose association! Just post up the rally and see who shows up!
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:37 PM   #30
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Yep, it worked for us. Right Tikiman??
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:05 PM   #31
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Yep, it worked for us. Right Tikiman??
Yep! Why mess with a good thing?
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:53 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
Personal view:

I think organization sucks. But...
Dave, I think you're a-funnin' us with that statement. You have suddenly gone on a one-man mission to write up a rulebook and structure that General Motors would be proud of.

Discounts? Goals, targets, finances? You really think that's why people want to get together and camp? Do you honestly believe that they need to worry about that stuff?

Now, I don't mean this as a criticism, Dave, since you do seem like a friendly guy, but I gotta side with Tintent, 2Air, Mikethefixit, Utee, CharlieM, Richinny and Tikiman who have posted in this thread that what you keep trying to instigate is neither needed or wanted!

A comment really hit home for me, when one poster said that writing a mission statement "sounds like work."

Why try to create complexity in an organization that was started, IIRC, as an alternative to the one YOU are trying to build? It was supposed to be loose and airy, free and easy. In fact, people picked their own (unnecessary) numbers, for example.

Relax, man. Take it easy. There's no need to turn the TAC into a race, where the most numbers, measures, and committees possible is good.

Travelling and camping; enjoying yourself. That can be much more fun than reading a balance sheet, can't it?
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:06 AM   #33
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There's a reason most human organizations have at least some structure. Even avante garde, iconoclastic, temporary events have some structure (see Burning Man). I don't see a need for a mission statement because I think people pretty much understand "The Airstream Club" is, well, a club about Airstreams. And, 99 percent of the time, the mission statement is filed and forgotten after it's written.

I do think there is a reasonable argument to lay out some "organizing principles." Obviously, one of the principles could be "Rules shall be kept to the absolute minimum necessary." That doesn't say you can't make a rule; it just establishes a principle, an ethos, if you will.

As for the GM statement, Aage... give me a break. This isn't about creating thousands of pages of processes and procedures. It's about making sure that there is some common, understood foundation for TAC. The "do your own thing" concept has been tried... it doesn't work and it isn't scalable. If the TAC is whatever people want it be, than it can a $1m Class A MoHo parked next to a tent parked next to a Shasta.

Fun is great. I've camped next to people who's only organized principle was having a good time. It was fun for them. For me, not so much. It is possible to have a group, a social club, with minimal structure and rules. I don't think it is possible, in the long run, to have one without them.
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:09 AM   #34
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goals, targets, finances, large and small events, how often, how diverse, what kinds

Well, if I was alone in pointing out that this hard right turn to have "structure" was 180° away from what was originally put forth as the way the club would operate, I might agree with you.

But I'm not alone. Are you surprised?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
As for the GM statement, Aage... give me a break. This isn't about creating thousands of pages of processes and procedures.
No, but it's a start. And anywaze, I told you a million times that I never egg-zadge-erate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
It's about making sure that there is some common, understood foundation for TAC. The "do your own thing" concept has been tried... it doesn't work and it isn't scalable. If the TAC is whatever people want it be, than it can a $1m Class A MoHo parked next to a tent parked next to a Shasta.
Doesn't work? Folks seem to be doing it, and enjoying doing it. And why does it need to be "scalable"? I know, so you can have regions, VPs of everything, and lots and lots of committees

Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
Fun is great. I've camped next to people who's only organized principle was having a good time. It was fun for them. For me, not so much. It is possible to have a group, a social club, with minimal structure and rules. I don't think it is possible, in the long run, to have one without them.
We have before us a big, shining example of what goes wrong when people who like to bureaucratize everything get their way "in the long run". I thought that the people who started TAC didn't want to replicate that flawed model.

Am I wrong?
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:32 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aage View Post
Discounts? Goals, targets, finances? You really think that's why people want to get together and camp? Do you honestly believe that they need to worry about that stuff?
*grins* No, I don't. I personally don't really want those things. I want y'all to talk about those things so next year when someone asks, "Why is it this way?" we can say "Well, we had that discussion, look at it in that thread over there, open for all to see and join in." I'm not instigating FOR these things at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aage View Post
Why try to create complexity in an organization that was started, IIRC, as an alternative to the one YOU are trying to build? It was supposed to be loose and airy, free and easy. In fact, people picked their own (unnecessary) numbers, for example.
I'm not trying to build anything. Truly. I'm not trying to steer TAC in any direction. I'm not one of those people who asks a question and only wants to hear a pre-determined answer. I'm really pleased at the consensus on subject.

I do feel that there is an element of risk in this structure (liability) and that there's an element of risk with any other structure too (organization, work, etc.) because there's risk in anything we do. Frankly, I am heartened by the broadness of the consensus on what TAC is about. It solves a lot of problems by simply deciding to not have them.

I am in a weird position. I am not an organizer of TAC, and don't want to be credited as such. I have had conversations with Rob and Frank where I have asked them about different options and explained the problems specific to the current structure - not to try to change it but simply to make sure the main volunteers properly understand the consequences. That's why I offered to do the magazine.

The magazine is "the public face of TAC" so I feel a desperate responsibility here - not just to accurately reflect the members' views, but to understand them myself and to accept them whether or not I agree with them. I'm in a position where I could do great service or great harm to the future of TAC, and I take that responsibility very, very seriously.

That is why I posted those posts with that wording - to invoke a discussion about those issues, not to promote them as a direction as much as to clearly rule them out. That's the whole point of TAC, isn't it? To know what we DON'T want to do as much as we do!

As a further insight into my thinking, I predict a new club will emerge in the next six to twelve months. It would be a fee-charging club that costs less than WBCCI, has a much simpler structure, a small number of officers and protections in place - legal and financial. It will have a well-formed idea of its purpose. Where it will gain members from TAC, who would remain TAC members as it's free, it will also eat into the WBCCI membership base but take membership fees from Wally. This will probably just leave the die-hard WBCCIers and the indifferent, and WBCCI would continue on for a considerable time as a less active club. The new club would make overtures to the sub-organizations of WBCCI, and some of them will affiliate with the new club.

In that context, TAC only ever needs to grow so big, and will have served its purpose. It's important to me that TAC becomes a permanent fixture on the rally calendar here at Airforums, and that people continue to go out and just have fun.
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:53 AM   #36
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air forums (originally airstreamforums) has proven that post #33 is entirely off target.

8 years of rallies, road side assistance to streamers and of course ALL of the technical help.
_______

the forum IS a club it provides ALL of the structure, support, and connectivity that many folks need.

gatherings happen and the organizational side of THOSE events varies by rally and region.
_______

arf has had growing pains and MISsteps along the way.

the community has TRIED some things that just didn't take off, members essentially VOTING...

but either USING or NOT using the new features.

a monthly photo thread with someone NEW in charge each month (the winner) works...

a dedicated MONTHLY newletter/emag just for AIR did NOT work...

and so it goes.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f505...pan-62050.html

see pos #22 above /\ /\

and #45, #48 and especially #57 below \/ \/

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f505...ent-62049.html
_________

agee is TRYING to use humor to remind these new clubbers of their original advertised INTENT...

the problem is IF that publicly stated mission was/is REALLY the mission

and if the tiny membership will TOTALLY MORPH to a new mission.

doing that is OK if they wanna go that route.
__________

again it is important to understand WHY THIS fractional group happened or others have happened.
__________

as an example there were a few wb'ers in the southwest UNhappy with the local wb' unit and leadership.

BUT some of those unhappy folks WANTED insurance/protection/structure and AFFILIATION...

to the rich history of the wb' and the 1000s of other regular members.

so they formed a NEW unit, this happened quickly and was PARTLY done here on the forums.

ask the original 4CU why/how and what happened and if they are happy with their local creation.
_______

another group of dynamic somewhat different streamers in texas did the same thing but without much publicity.

the heart of texas camping unit ( HOT' C U ) was formed and has prospered...
_______

members here were made FUN OF for wanting a cyber unit, with minimal dues and open to ALL streamers nation/world wide...

a unit that COULD and WOULD conduct the mundane biz stuff online but still REALLY camp 2gether...

note particularly the posts from the principles and HOW their mockery/views have changed.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...nit-22293.html

some of the ideas were pretty rough, but a group in ohio took the best pieces added better pieces and now...

NOVA.

so NOVA now exists and is using exactly that approach

and has a mission which totally FILLS that borderless void in the old line club...

it IS a place MALs could now call home...nova.
_______

look a LOT of this stuff is EGO...

"my units better than yours"
"join my new club it's different"
"our rallies are BETTER than theirs"
"i can fix the wb' i am gonna be a great leader"
"we don't have the crap side issues"

"our POOO don't stink"
_______

it APPEARS this new free club is MORPHING into a "like a wb' unit" with...

-rules
-monthly calendar called a MAGAZINE (oh please)
-divisions by region or state
-ranking of events by size
-folks ASSIGNED to jobs
-regular requests to VOLUNTEER within the club...

and so on.

the basic difference being "free" of dues, the FREE really appeals to some.

but discussions of contributions, how to handle money are now happening too...

so FREE becomes a relative term.

can NON AIRSTREAM rv'ers join? can big ol' class A mohos owners join and rally?

inclusivity or EXclusivity, your choice...

AIRforums gatherings accept ALL comers in...

ALL rigs, or NO rigs, or just those who wanna camp and share....

__________

i honestly think for a LOT of these folks---NOT the ones intent on making a political statement...

simply starting a NEW/online nation wide wb' unit is a better use of their time and would RETURN more for their efforts.

long ago i asked a VAC member if/when/why they might ever consider SPLITTING from the wb' as a separate club...

the answer was very very helpful in understanding the relationships between...

SUB groups/intra clubs with in the wb that are FUN but unhappy with the PARENT club and INTERNATIONAL commanders...

READ posts #27 to about 33/34 here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...tml#post217810
________

these 'club threads' are a lot like axles, leaks, mice, fridges, tires and other common themes here....

its NOT the argument side that's common but the SOLUTIONS and newbie side...

because IF noobs don't read the archives of solutions and technical wisdom, they make the SAME MISTAKES over and over...

suggesting silicone, boxes on the rear, bike racks, UNDER inflated tires, poor hitches, INadequate tow vehicles...

is very similar to INVENTING new clubs that will leak, stress the frame, go flat or sway when towed...

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:08 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
...As a further insight into my thinking,

I predict a new club will emerge in the next six to twelve months. It would be a fee-charging club that costs less than WBCCI, has a much simpler structure, a small number of officers and protections in place - legal and financial. It will have a well-formed idea of its purpose.

Where it will gain members from TAC, who would remain TAC members as it's free, it will also eat into the WBCCI membership base but take membership fees from Wally.

This will probably just leave the die-hard WBCCIers and the indifferent, and WBCCI would continue on for a considerable time as a less active club.

The new club would make overtures to the sub-organizations of WBCCI, and some of them will affiliate with the new club...
here it goes again...

another new improved smaller better faster lighter smarter club intent on stealin' from the old log.

now WHERE are all those threads on STARTING A NEW CLUB...

on yeah dave, they ARE there, go fish...

"my clubz better than your club, my clubs better then yourz..."

yet another example of WHY airforums provide almost ALL the structure, organization and OPPORTUNITY to camp2gether...

that most folks here want/need and USE beyond the wb'...

with the NEXT REAL step being at the unit/vac/wb' level.

start a NEW wb' unit dave or visit a HOTcU gathering or FCU gathering...

OR attend a FORUM RALLY...

honestly the new unit starters are VERY HAPPY with their efforts and it only takes 10 folks...

wait, have u done ANY of those things yet ((camping with other streamers here?))

no offense intended but a tiny bit of that is useful, maybe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
...It's important to me that TAC becomes a permanent fixture on the rally calendar here at Airforums, and that people continue to go out and just have fun.
hasn't THAT already happened?

folks post RALLY details onto the calendar and it IS permanent in a cyberspace sorta way...

do you want SPECIAL attention for these 3 letter events?

maybe a different color font or BIGGER letters or HIGHer ranking on the calendar?

here's the deal

folks scan the calendar and look for gigs....

and THOSE 3 letters at the beginning serve to appeal to 300 people (probably many less)

but in reality they also serve to EXCLUDE 1000s upon 1000s of regular AIRFORUMS members...

can you IMAGINE how many folks might have attended the small regional 3 letter things...

IF they were simply AIR FORUM events?
_________

anyone can attend an AIR gig in anything (wearing anything) and for any number of days...

they don't have to DO anything but arrive.

wanna add food cool, wanna wave a flamingo cool, lights ok, sing or play a geetar GREAT!

take a hike, go fishing, got OUT to dinner or a pub together, did a kids thing, show a movie OUTDOORS...

it's all good!

but volunteering is totally voluntary.

lets try this another way...

HAVE YOU BEEN to an airforums event and NOT been happy or well treated or felt LACKING of something...

describe your experiences at an AIR event, please.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:19 AM   #38
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2air,

I'm not that interested in starting a new club - already found one that gives me something to do. You seem to be confused between discussions, predictions and plans.

I remember a time when you were talking about a new club. What happened to that?
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:31 PM   #39
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well confusion happens and i am regularly confused...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
...talking about a new club. What happened to that?
but got no idea what the reference might be...

1. this is texting not talking ((or did u attend an AIR event with TALKING about new clubs?))

2. there have been 100s of text exchanges here or a variety of affiliations...

so post a SPECIFIC link if ya really want an answer.

but try going back and reading/reply to the other recent posts, don't skip or deflect or avoid...

yeah, it's ok 2 do those things... if'n ya don't want 2 explore real issues.

but details and specifics ARE a lot more useful than innUendo.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:12 PM   #40
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I feel your pain, Dave.

As much as I've posted my opinions here...I think when it comes to our position on the question, I think we're on the same side.

You and I tend to do the same thing in many controversial situations. We ask the tough questions in order to get people to THINK. This is often interpreted as being a "jerk" or other more colorful terms but really what we're doing is merely asking people to stop, think, and formulate (and in this case, share) an opinion so that we can be sure than the vision of a handful of people does not become the not-totally-wanted vision of many others.

You ask the tough questions and you get labeled as the jerk that is trying to steer when you're just askin' people to use the ol' noggin.

Rest well Dave, you're going to take a lickin' on this one but you can always stop by my AS for a glass of wine.
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