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Old 05-11-2012, 07:06 PM   #113
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I simply have to learn how to respond to multiple posts in one post, but I digress.

The Illinois case does strike me as extreme. But, since the failed War on Drugs started, the US Supreme Court has pretty much gutted the 4th Amendment, especially in respect to vehicles. With fear of gangs also high, the Court has also gone even further on guns. Cops are allowed to search for drugs and guns on the flimsiest of suspicions. While a lawyer may get you out fast, it sure is an expensive pain to fight this. So just about anyplace in the car interior is open to cops, but a travel trailer should not be. Not because it is your castle, but because you can't reach a gun in there or hide or swallow any drugs while you are in the car or truck or sitting on the side of the road.

Why would a cop go to all this trouble to search a trailer? Maybe he had a bad day, maybe bad training, maybe you gave him a hard time and he wanted to get back at you. Maybe there was a report about some people with an Airstream that had been bad guys. When they ask for permission to search something, that means they know they are shaky ground and you can say no. Be prepared for a lot of trouble though plus a following too closely ticket.

Stop and frisk law means the cops may have a reasonably formed suspicion to stop and frisk you. They can ask your name and proof of who you are, but not much more. I may get the exact words wrong since the last case I readon this was 40 years ago (Mapp vs. Ohio was the landmark case on this)

Questions for Dakota: Were you following too closely? Did they ask to search anything? Did they make you sit on the ground? Did they search your persons?

Gene
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:25 PM   #114
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Gene,

I get what you are saying, but I WILL NOT be a sheep. If they can't ask an illegal alien for "papers", then by GOD they won't get mine! Period! Everybody seems to have rights except for natural born citizens anymore.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:37 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by dznf0g

YES, and even if you are "hiding" SOMETHING, being old(er), polite and cooperative still works!
(and maybe making them believe you're completely honest)
True.

As a reasonably attractive female, I've also been known to smile sweetly and bat my eyelashes at an officer who has stopped me for driving just a teeny bit fast. It still works.


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Old 05-11-2012, 07:58 PM   #116
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****Intermission****
The popcorn in the lobby is hot.

In the meantime, Michael Moore presents this short for your viewing pleasure........
Bowling for Columbine - YouTube

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Old 05-11-2012, 08:04 PM   #117
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Thank You
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:08 PM   #118
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****Intermission****
The popcorn in the lobby is hot.

In the meantime, Michael Moore presents this short for your viewing pleasure........
Bowling for Columbine - YouTube

Ok, Fly, now you're just pokin' a stick in my eye. Look, I behaved and didn't even respond to this thread for .....how many days? It's been a really hard long week and it's Friday night and I got nuttin' to do 'cept beat the wife or kick the dog...and I'm really opposed to animal cruelty. So cut me a weeeee bit of slack!
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:20 PM   #119
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My wife and I have trained together and have a plan A,, plan B and a plan C.. .We even have a code word and or hand signal that if I feel I might be in trouble and need her to set up cover,,,, she know where the fire arm is at and can hit a coffee cup at 50 yards.. Day or night..

As times get harder the more and higher percent are out looking for easy pray..

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Same plan here Sodbust.
Not that accurate with a handgun, but 50 rounds each at the range as often as we can. Slowly improving.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:37 PM   #120
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Aaah, Illinois. What to say, what to say. Umm, I"ve said it.

It is very difficult for your average, law-abiding citizen to be anything but polite, respectful and compliant with a uniformed officer who carries a loaded gun and has arrest powers. That's just reality.

If you have nothing to hide, being honest and cooperative seems to be the best course of action. Yes?



Maggie
Bingo!

It's easy to say learn your rights (which I know) or be polite and cooperate because this cop can make your life hell!

I chose the path of least resistance.

The incident did create 2 new contributing NRA members. (dogs cant join)
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:11 PM   #121
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Any thoughts out there about carrying a weapon in your AS?
This thread has a lot of opinions about why folks choose as they do - good on 'em. The first post asked for thoughts and got them in abundance. How "bout something generally useful? This will be a try at it.

My intention is to cover both the pro and con side of this question, many of which have been covered very well in other threads in this forum. You will not see anything about "what I do," or "what I recommend" as that is my personal business and other folks should likewise decide for themselves. Unlike a gun magazine this forum has folks of many outlooks - there is no preaching to the converted. That should be seen as constructive, but the first post asked for comment. Perhaps in hindsight that was a mistake.

First of all, here in Virginia most recent published information that I could find (2009) shows that approximately two per cent of our fellow Virginians have applied for a Virginia concealed firearm license. Unlike Florida this is a permit for a concealed firearm only. Open carry is legal here. Some other non-firearm weapons are not legal to be carried concealed. A collapsing baton comes to mind.

As a result every person considering violence against another person in Virginia has to ask whether anybody they encounter here is armed. Whether one chooses to carry a firearm or not that's an interesting result for the unarmed folks. Businesses may also post a sign at the entrance declaring that "no firearms are allowed". Go there or not, but it is the owner's perogative - and yours to enter or not. For what it's worth these signs are most common in northern Virginia.

As for carrying any weapon - in an Airstream or not - the first consideration had better be whether the bearer can choose to use it, as commented multiple times previously, and use it competently. If a Virginian wishes to be one of the ninety-eight per cent who choose not to become licensed they still benefit from the other two per cent. Folks who cannot honestly bear to harm another person are in the ninety-eight per cent. They are generally nice folks who should be cherished. Maybe those folks just can't abide killing another soul but we may want to share a meal or a conversation with them. The other two per cent. Well, they are the reason the ninety-eight per cent benefit from the uncertainty.

Carrying a deadly weapon because one is "uncomfortable" is just backwards. The first two things to depart under severe stress are field of view and small muscle coordination. Call it tunnel vision and frozen in one's tracks. Hearing and sense of time are also distorted. Without training and forethought the armed and uncomfortable citizen may not be effective in his own defense and may be a hazard to his fellow citizens. With training and forethought it is still darned difficult to employ a pistol effectively.

There are many many anecdotes but the example that comes to mind is the police officer who came under fire from a building. He returned fire with a handgun carrying sixteen rounds, reloaded once and missed with every shot. Unless you've been shot at don't giggle. It happens.

Darned difficult? It takes a competent shooter approximately two seconds or less to draw and fire from most useful concealment, a holster under a jacket, for example. Deep concealment is a different story, but in those two seconds a threat can close from approximately twelve to fifteen feet to the range of a blow with a fist or hand held weapon.

As a firearms instructor once counseled, remember that every round down range is a potential law suit. Are you OK with that? That observation speaks to all the points mentioned previously about competence, training, planning and the responsibility of deadly force.

As has been noted in other threads our Airsteams don't stop bullets, either incoming or outgoing. Do you know where that round will go? Do you r-e-a-l-l-y know? That might be a good idea.

How 'bout storage and security for the weapon? Are you controlling the weapon every minute? Guests in the trailer? Children? Where is it stored? Is the storage secure? Is it accessible in emergency? Is the storage capable of resisting a break-in or a crash (if you are traveling in Illinois?). Does it meet Federal weapons transport requirements? Are you in a truck or an RV? Do you know the law for those vehicles?

This is a good point to stop. For the original question for comments about firearms in Airstreams, follow your own guidance. There are too many considerations to take casual advice.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:18 PM   #122
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Good writeup, Skip. I appreciate it. The real issue IMO, resides in your 2nd to last paragraph. That should NOT be the question when we have a FEDERAL constitution with a 2nd amendment....but, alas, you are correct.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:32 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
Aaah, Illinois. What to say, what to say. Umm, I"ve said it.

It is very difficult for your average, law-abiding citizen to be anything but polite, respectful and compliant with a uniformed officer who carries a loaded gun and has arrest powers. That's just reality.

If you have nothing to hide, being honest and cooperative seems to be the best course of action. Yes?

Maggie
That is entirely a personal choice... and not a matter of law. You don't have to be polite, or respectful... because the officer has a gun. He's not going to shoot you for being an asshole, and can't arrest you without cause. I'd expect you would chose to be polite because you realize he/she is doing their job, and their day just goes a lot better when people are nice.

If you are grumpy, and the cop is already well on the way to having a crappy day - then you are definitely running the risk of the officer using their discretion to zing you for every little thing they can find.

I prefer to deal with polite people, but you can be as grumpy as you want. It's all recorded and when you come to court 6 months later proclaiming what a dick the cop was, and you're the one on video being an ass... well...

A good cop will know all the answers to any question related to why you were stopped... so go ahead and ask. It's keeps them sharp, and you can learn as well. You'll never win a roadside trial, so don't bother trying to impress with tales of how your uncle's friend's co-worker beat a ticket just like the one you are getting. When I tell you that you are free to go, and you wonder what I am doing still sitting on the side of the road - I am making notes in case you contest the ticket. If you truly, honestly think you are innocent, you should do the same... take pictures, get statements from witnesses... because a judge is interested in hearing evidence... not excuses.

Review you local statutes for what is an arrestable offence. In Canada, the only Motor Vehicle Act offences you can be arrested for are No Insurance, leaving the scene of an accident, and driving while prohibited. You can't be arrested for speeding... unless it is so ridiculous you are arrested for Criminal Code dangerous driving...
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:44 PM   #124
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Sorry Friday, but you are missing my point. And here is your original quote:

"My own opinion and experience is that people need to be situationally aware. The example of someone being car-jacked, kidnapped, and robbed brings up two thoughts... how could a person be so unaware of their surroundings that they'd be a victim... and, if that person was so unaware, would a gun, bat, or whatever really have changed the outcome?"

Two thoughts here.
#1) The only thing that scares me is that a law officer would make the statement "how could a person be so unaware of their surroundings that they'd be a victim." Well it happens all the time. This shows a total lack of understanding or empathy for what a victim of a violent crime experiences.

#2)"if that person was so unaware, would a gun, bat, or whatever really have changed the outcome?" We'll never know, since I was unarmed or prepared the first time. But after training in defensive handgun tactics, threat management and legal use of deadly force, if it should happen again, the situation could be different.
I can see how you've read that into my comment, and I apologize... my point was that an unaware person isn't suddenly going to become aware because they have access to a tool. I deal with victims all the time, and my empathy is just fine... I've knocked on more doors and delivered NOK's than I can remember... sometimes oblivious to the mess my kit is still in... but in a hurry to try beat Facebook to mom & dad's house with the news their child is dead.

In a chance encounter with a mom who lost her daughter in an MVA, we ended up on a ski hill together for a volunteer day... for the first time ever, I had a person I had delivered the 'news' to engage ME in conversation about how I prepare for it, what I am thinking, and how I deal with it after...

... it was quite a powerful conversation for both of us... because she really needed to know the whole story about her daughter... how hard people tried and how it affected all of us... because all she had been thinking about over the year was how everyone else was dealing with the loss...

... anyway ... sometimes the crappiest part of this job makes for some very powerful connections with people...
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:32 PM   #125
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I recall that several people in the area had guns, but didn't use them. One was cautioned to put it away after the shooter was subdued because when the cops came they might shoot him. Because the shooter had an assault weapon, there was hardly any time to act before he exhausted the clip. He was in the middle of a crowd and if anyone had tried to shoot him, they would likely have hit bystanders.

I am not aware of hearing about people with concealed or unconcealed guns ever stopping bad guys although there was at least one post in this thread about that—the guy (Sodbust?—I read it this morning so I am not sure) who chased off some bullies from a bar. I'm sure some good guys have saved someone, but with all the talk how if everyone carried a gun it would prevent or reduce crime, I'd think I'd have heard about this happening, but never do.

Gene
Hi Gene,

The shooter in Tucson had a glock pistol. Assault weapons are fully automatic rifles AKA machine guns.

Twenty some odd States have passed "Shall Issue" laws which means the gov. of those states must issue a CCW unless the person applying has a criminal record or mental issues. According to the FBI all of those states had large drops in crim. Some states even had double digit drops in person on person crimes. Criminals don't like being shot either.

Every copy of the American Rifleman has a page called "The Armed Citizen." Every month there are fifteen or so newspaper articles about folks with firearms protecting themselves or others.

Just some food for thought.
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Old 05-12-2012, 02:29 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Goin camping

Hi Gene,

The shooter in Tucson had a glock pistol. Assault weapons are fully automatic rifles AKA machine guns.

Twenty some odd States have passed "Shall Issue" laws which means the gov. of those states must issue a CCW unless the person applying has a criminal record or mental issues. According to the FBI all of those states had large drops in crim. Some states even had double digit drops in person on person crimes. Criminals don't like being shot either.

Every copy of the American Rifleman has a page called "The Armed Citizen." Every month there are fifteen or so newspaper articles about folks with firearms protecting themselves or others.

Just some food for thought.
Assault weapons are not machine guns. This is a big misconception. He assault weapon you buy in a gun store are semi auto. It will shoot every time you pull the trigger. Most assault looking rifles come with a 30 round clip. It is very hard to purchase a machine gun. In most states it is illegal and the ones that do allow it you need a federal permit. An assault rifle is based on what it looks like not it's function.
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