Loose Lug Nuts Heads Up.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

If you're the creative garage master that many of us claim to be it's a doable task to check the reading.

BIG bolt secured in a stout vise. Socket and wrench setup to try to turn bolt. Make sure wrench is horizontal.

Measuring from center of drive to the point at which a know value fairly heavy weight will hang.

If the wrench is 20" from center of drive to where you will hang the weight that's 1.666' multiply that times your know weight say 40 lb that's 66.7 lb-ft. Heavier weight available do the math.

I've done this at work to check a wrench, worked out pretty easy.

For fun, I did something similar once to check a number of torque wrenches that I own some time ago.

Instead of hanging a weight though, I pulled on the wrenches via a digital luggage scale.

I plotted calibration charts for each wrench - two beam wrenches, two click wrenches and one digital torque wrench.

I was quite pleasantly surprised to see that they were all very close to one another.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by openroad118

Ok, so I got my new torque wrench (actually my second, as the first one broke torqueing the nuts on my truck) and checked the nuts on the AS, set for 100 ft#. Wrench clicked without moving any of the nuts. So I don't know what the nuts were set at. Should I loosen each one and re-torque?

If you truly wish to know at what torque they are set...yes. Friction of set nuts require greater torque to break the friction to torque at any setting...and you cannot know the torque they are previously set without breaking them free and starting over. However, you may do one at a time and not have to jack the wheel in that fashion.

[Mollysdad]

Okay, this wasn't AS Forum approved, but I saw Harbor Freight had a 25% off coupon today so I went.
All the talk of loose lug nuts made me purchase a 1/2" torque wrench and a 1/2" breaker bar about 24" long.
I really wanted a socket of 1 1/8" for the hitch, but no one seems to carry one or they're out, so I ordered from Amazon.

BTW, a sad day, I just learned Sears sold Craftsman tools to Stanley/Black and Decker.

[overlander63]

Not to dredge up the Nev R Seize so much as to remind people to check more than once...
I cleaned as much of the stuff off the studs as I could, torqued the nuts, then drove about 30 miles, and checked. Almost every one was not "tight". I went another 100 miles, and checked again while gassing up. 3 nuts on one wheel weren't "tight", one on two other wheels wasn't tight. When we got ready to leave the campground this morning, 3 out of 5 nuts on two wheels weren't tight. Don't check 'em once and forget 'em.

[MelGoddard]

Because if a $100 wrench is good, a $500 wrench is more better.

See above, #52 post.
My Craftsman cost me about $35C; admittedly about 20 years or so ago.
Still checks out at 100% accuracy.
I would love to buy another one that has a longer handle; but this one is a known entity.

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by awchief

yes

absolutely "yes"!

[Ruscal]

Originally Posted by overlander63

Not to dredge up the Nev R Seize so much as to remind people to check more than once...
I cleaned as much of the stuff off the studs as I could, torqued the nuts, then drove about 30 miles, and checked. Almost every one was not "tight". I went another 100 miles, and checked again while gassing up. 3 nuts on one wheel weren't "tight", one on two other wheels wasn't tight. When we got ready to leave the campground this morning, 3 out of 5 nuts on two wheels weren't tight. Don't check 'em once and forget 'em.

It seems strange that your lugs are loosening after so few miles traveled. Usually that kind of movement is caused by new wheels during the seating in and bedding that occurs during first use. Old wheels should not cause loosening as you are experiencing. With older wheels you don't see much movement after the first re-torque. I have used anti seize on lugs in the past with no loosening problems at all. I torqued the 1/2" lugs to 75 pounds. I wonder if your lugs could have been over torqued by using 110 pounds with the anti seize and stretching the metal? What torque spec are you now using?
Russ

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by Ruscal

It seems strange that your lugs are loosening after so few miles traveled. Usually that kind of movement is caused by new wheels during the seating in and bedding that occurs during first use. Old wheels should not cause loosening as you are experiencing. With older wheels you don't see much movement after the first re-torque. I have used anti seize on lugs in the past with no loosening problems at all. I torqued the 1/2" lugs to 75 pounds. I wonder if your lugs could have been over torqued by using 110 pounds with the anti seize and stretching the metal? What torque spec are you now using?
Russ

They are steel (chrome) wheels, with new lug nuts. I'm torquing to 100 lbs/ft. Even after I cleaned off the antiseize, I still found trails of it on the wheels.
I may end up having to remove the wheels again, and thoroughly cleaning the stuff off the studs and lug nuts more aggressively than I did when I first changed the lug nuts.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by overlander63

They are steel (chrome) wheels, with new lug nuts. I'm torquing to 100 lbs/ft. Even after I cleaned off the antiseize, I still found trails of it on the wheels.
I may end up having to remove the wheels again, and thoroughly cleaning the stuff off the studs and lug nuts more aggressively than I did when I first changed the lug nuts.

I seriously question whether anti-seize is your problem unless you over-applied it. The nuts you have may NOT be properly fitted to your wheels. SOME wheels require "cone" shaped nuts...other's "bulge" nuts,...others "bulge-acorn" nuts. Those determine the "face" of the nut which seats against the wheel. The friction developed by that face/seat is what keeps your nuts tight. Antiseize will reduce the amount of torque required to properly "set" the nuts...but will not change the friction which holds the nut to proper torque. (Excess or "over application" of lubricant may contaminate the face/seat and reduce the holding-friction of the nut. But your repeated loosening of nuts indicates to me that your wheel/nut interface is flexing...either because that nut is improperly matched to the wheel nut-seat.... or because of a flexing wheel. Keep in mind that most aluminum wheels use bulge or bulge-acorn nuts...while steel wheels usually utilize conical nuts unless a hubcap is involved. Visit your wheel mfr's information to determine the proper nut to use.)

Another issue might be the cleanliness of your wheel/drum/hub faces. Any dirt on that interface will prevent reaching proper torgue, and subsequent driving/rolling will change the fitment.

Again... a light application of anti-seize should not affect a nut staying tight once properly set. If you use lubrication, reduce the applied torque 10-20% and apply lube ONLY to the first few threads of the stud...not all the way to the hub. If you have "open-ended" nuts that lube may "sling" off and evidence on the wheel/tire combo... but be certain none is between the nut "face" and the wheel "seat".

[Mollysdad]

Where do you check a torque wrench?

[GCinSC2]

Stay tuned folks. Re: anti seize.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Where do you check a torque wrench?

If you have something like a digital luggage scale, you can just use that to check your torque wrench accuracy.


I.E. use the digital luggage scale to pull on the torque wrench handle a known distance from the centre of the socket - say one foot.


Clamp the torque wrench drive square in a bench vice, and then pulling at ninety degrees at one foot from the socket centre with 50 lbs registering on the scale should read darn close to 50 ft-lb on your torque wrench. (or 25 lb pull at 2 ft distance!) if all is well.

Of course it is only as accurate as your digital scale - but I think they are generally quite accurate, I have two different makes of scale and they agree within a fraction of one pound.

I have several torque wrenches and have checked them this way.

Alternately you could ask a local repair shop where they get their torque wrenches
calibrated - but you might get a blank stare!

[GCinSC2]

Originally Posted by overlander63

They are steel (chrome) wheels, with new lug nuts. I'm torquing to 100 lbs/ft. Even after I cleaned off the antiseize, I still found trails of it on the wheels.
I may end up having to remove the wheels again, and thoroughly cleaning the stuff off the studs and lug nuts more aggressively than I did when I first changed the lug nuts.

Folks I don't know who knows who etc, but Terry, Overlander63 earns his wages fixing Airstreams for a living. Not sure of how many stripes on his sleeve, but he fixes 'em AND with Marie enjoys 'em.

You can read your AS owners manual for wheel R&R procedures but I thought I'd add a clip from a 2004 Dodge Ram factory service manual about wheel and lug nut replacement. Now this clip is for conical seat lug nuts.

"To install the wheel, first position it properly on
the mounting surface (Fig. 21). All wheel nuts should
then be tightened just snug. Gradually tighten them
in sequence to the proper torque specification, (Fig.
22) (Fig. 23). Never use oil or grease on studs or
nuts."

And the Never use oil or grease is in bold text.

Torque wrench properly used, frequent checking all good practices for safe travels.

Gary

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

Folks I don't know who knows who etc, but Terry, Overlander63 earns his wages fixing Airstreams for a living. Not sure of how many stripes on his sleeve, but he fixes 'em AND with Marie enjoys 'em.

You can read your AS owners manual for wheel R&R procedures but I thought I'd add a clip from a 2004 Dodge Ram factory service manual about wheel and lug nut replacement. Now this clip is for conical seat lug nuts.

"To install the wheel, first position it properly on
the mounting surface (Fig. 21). All wheel nuts should
then be tightened just snug. Gradually tighten them
in sequence to the proper torque specification, (Fig.
22) (Fig. 23). Never use oil or grease on studs or
nuts."

And the Never use oil or grease is in bold text.

Torque wrench properly used, frequent checking all good practices for safe travels.

Gary

Generally correct; however.............
For the 'rest of the story' see above: #29, 30. 31.

[GCinSC2]

Mel,

I think the info I cited was specific to wheel studs with conical lug nuts from a factory service manual.

And this topic was on lug nuts.

I'm not challenging your info about fasteners just keeping my comment specific to lug nuts.

Gary

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

Mel,

I think the info I cited was specific to wheel studs with conical lug nuts from a factory service manual.

And this topic was on lug nuts.

I'm not challenging your info about fasteners just keeping my comment specific to lug nuts.

Gary

Greetings Gary;

All of the above information is specific to threaded fasteners, and since lug nuts on studs are fasteners, they qualify.

[GCinSC2]

Mel,

Ok both use threads, agreed. Threaded fasteners are well defined in many industries. I think you stated working in some aspect of the fastener industry, good.

Two questions.

1. Are conical seat fasteners common to industrial fasteners or are flat contact heads the order of the day?

2. Can you quote and cite an automotive factory service manual for conical seat lug nuts that says lubrication required?

Gary

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

Mel,

Ok both use threads, agreed. Threaded fasteners are well defined in many industries. I think you stated working in some aspect of the fastener industry, good.

Two questions.

1. Are conical seat fasteners common to industrial fasteners or are flat contact heads the order of the day?

2. Can you quote and cite an automotive factory service manual for conical seat lug nuts that says lubrication required?

Gary

Gary;
I wrote you some rather comprehensive answers to your queries, and they got lost in this site somewhere. They may show up in due course.

[cwf]

I replaced axles. Noticed the old lug nuts loosen after proper torque.. clean dry threads on lugs.

Removed wheel to check bearings.. there was a telltale remainder of thread from inside the lug nuts....

Replacing lugnuts.

Remember, when nuts loose, tighten... or replace...

[MelGoddard]

Two questions.

1. Are conical seat fasteners common to industrial fasteners or are flat contact heads the order of the day?

2. Can you quote and cite an automotive factory service manual for conical seat lug nuts that says lubrication required?

Gary

Let's try this again, after several tries;
1) Conical fasteners;
Usually found in small screws, used everywhere: 82 Deg. included angle, steel usually 55,-60,000 PSI Tensile Strength.
Will also be found in SPS fasteners, Allan screws and so forth, steel of 180,000-200,000 PSI, where resistance to stretching is important. (Eg. Punch presses and so forth.)
Also found in Aircraft screws; 100 Deg. angle, AN screws, 60,000 PSI, NAS screws 160,000 PSI and up.

Flat 'Hex head, washer faced, bolts;
Mainly used in structural applications.
Steel can be from S.A.E. Grade '0': 55-60,000 PSI to Grade '8' 150,000 PSI.
Then there 'proprietary' MFRs who make bolts up to 220,000 PSI. (Eg. Premier Fastener Corp. "Supertanium" line, and others.)
Aircraft bolts run the gamut from AN 60,000 PSI, NAS 160,000-180,000 PSI, MS 180,000-220,000 PSI and even higher.
There is a mind-boggling assortment of them.

2) I know of no automotive publication that specifies 'lube-torque' on wheels; but I suppose that the trucking industry might possibly have them. But I'm guessing.
In Aviation, it is common for two part wheel assemblies to use C-5 Colloidal copper on the bolts and torqued to a specified figure as per Engineering drawing.

That's a start from memory, I don't have my 'books' anymore.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Mel