W/D question

[Ron Gratz]

---What your saying "can't be done", I have done thousands of times, over and over again.

It would be interesting to see the scales results from just one these examples. And, I'm not talking about towing with a 1970 Oldsmobile. As a previous poster stated,
"it may have been important or useful in the sedan daze of towing when lifting the drive axle was possible...
or in the single axle short trailer era."
I assume the OP has a somewhat more modern TV, and I was addressing his question.

I did research many years ago as to what causes loss of control accidents, and proved them in over 1000 (one thousand) cases.

It also would be very interesting to see some of the results from your research. Perhaps you could provide a summary some time.

Please do some physical research before you hog wash the formulas and first hand experiences, as reported by many
owners.

I have read the reports from many owners who have properly measured their TV and TT axle loads before and after hitching. I have never found anyone who has come close to a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 distribution.

Ron

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by dpandorf

Do you think its possible I may have my springs too tight? ...My trailer is level after adjusting the W/D and getting these weights.

well level is good and a primary goal.

as to the question of too much, the issue is 2much for the truck or trailer or hitch?

max flex (with your gear) doesn't hurt the truck or hitch, not one bit.

and it SHOULD NOT hurt the trailer. a 9-12,000 lb trailer with 1000lb+ tongue, needs a big tow beast.

but the wimpy tongue/frame beams on new 'streams DO flex some even with the PROPER GEARING...

we covered that issue here.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/sear...archid=1182696

a/s clearly needs to BEEF UP these frames.

and they HAVE DONE JUST THAT on the pan american (at least the back half) model...

NOW they need to address the front of these big heavy trailers, if that wasn't part of the pan-am tweaks.

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

...Using softer bars, will still transfer the weights properly, as long as they are adjusted correctly...

you cause the coupler to move vertically 2 to 3 inches....

as you know duane, from reading the cat scale thread, andy gave the seal of approval to my efforts.

and i was able to get the ideal axle loading with 1000 lb bars.... INITIALLY at max tension.

so his suggestion i go DOWN to 750 lb bars made no sense (haha didn't offer them then anyway) for a 1200lb+ tongue

but after a year+ of towing i could NO LONGER get those measurements, even with MAX bar tension.

so i went UP TO 1400 lbs bars and added another leaf to the stack (exact OPPOSITE of his rec.) and....

1. was able to restore the axle loads and get level again.
2. see NO ill effects on the trailer with another 25,000+ miles of towing.
3. in fact there is LESS tension on the trailer tongue and front end, and less vibration inside.

your truck has softer springs than mine, but i can REPORT from trying it (all 250lb o'me) that...

bouncing up and down on the receiver hitched up will NOT move the truck 2-3 inches.

cheers
2air'

[mustang]

dpandorf Thank you for letting me veiw the camera. That was so cool and being able to look around.Thank you. On another note I have seen people with 2 much bar on the hitch actually spin the tires climbing gravel roads in the campground. The configuration was a F150 and a 25 foot airstream. he had to get out and drop 2 links.

[dpandorf]

Well I can say I've been very happy with the pull I've been getting with my combo. As I've said in previous posts I've only been towing for just over a year. With my setup I haven't had any of the white knuckle driving other than the occasional idiot that pulls in front of my on the interstate. High winds, semi-trailers, steep hills up or down, have not given me any feeling of being out of control or the white knuckle feeling.

I just want to ensure that I get the least wear out of tires, both on the truck and trailer and want to ensure I have the weight properly distributed.

I rotate my truck tires at every oil change (5,000 miles) and the trailer the same amount.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by dpandorf

...I rotate my truck tires at every oil change (5,000 miles) and the trailer the same amount.

as do i (although with syn 5-40 and an oil analysis that's been stretched to 7-8k for the oil)

the tire wear (properly inflated) with less w/d was DRAMATIC,

i measured it every 1000 miles and watched the rears just disappear.

one of the many nice things about using the haha is even when altering the w/d tension dramatically...

the basic anti-sway control doesn't change.

but with the front end lighter,

more steering input means more chances for the driver to screw things up...

and the camera link is VERY COOL, thanks for sharing that!

cheers
2air'

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

---so now my goal is about 500 lbs more on the drive tires, once the trailer is level and the steer axle is back to baseline.

You first adjust the WD so the steer axle is back to baseline. Does that mean zero tongue weight is transferred to the steer axle?

Then, do you reduce the load on the WD bars so about 500# is put back on the drive tires?

Do you have some scales measurements which show the TV axle loads before the trailer is attached, in addition to measurements for the hitched combination both with and without WD applied?

Ron

[dpandorf]

Originally Posted by mustang

dpandorf Thank you for letting me veiw the camera. That was so cool and being able to look around.Thank you. On another note I have seen people with 2 much bar on the hitch actually spin the tires climbing gravel roads in the campground. The configuration was a F150 and a 25 foot airstream. he had to get out and drop 2 links.

Thanks Mustang,

The webcam is run by the campground and the photo is a screen capture from that camera.

I have a Hensley hitch and to reduce to increase tension you make adjustments to the spring jacks.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Ron Gratz

...Do you have some scales measurements which show...

yes, many have been posted.

also have scale weights of EACH tire (truck and triple trailer) un-hitched.

and weights (steer/drive/trailer) at each turn of the haha screws jacks...

as suggested earlier "dozens" of these, collected about every 4-6 months.

no offensive intended but it's not my goal to engage you on this issue.

i've read first hand what happens on these and other forums, doing just that.

so i am not gonna go there.

cheers
2air'

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

yes, many have been posted.

also have scale weights of EACH tire (truck and triple trailer) un-hitched.

and weights (steer/drive/trailer) at each turn of the haha screws jacks...

I did a search and found a few recent references to your axle load measurements -- all of which pointed back to:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/show...17&postcount=1

I think that post answered my question about the "50/50 on the tv axles".

I thought you were referring to an equal distribution of tongue weight on the TV axles. And was wondering how you managed to get the TV's share of the tongue weight equally distributed on the TV's axles.

From the 2005 post, it appears you are referring to the total hitched loads on the TV axles -- including both the weight of the TV and the contribution from the TT tongue weight.

Ron

[mustang]

The thing that confuses me the most is, The Airstream has 2 axles and so does the tow vehicle. The position of those axles is the only difference. So I think it would make more sense to split it in half rather than per axle because you cant possibly split the trailer axles. On a semi you can only put 12000 lbs on steer, 34000 on each set of tandems (drives and trl) but if you have a single axle drive 20000 is the max on that. So there has to be a ratio on what is OK. Same I would think to be true on a Pickup steering axle that is why the front and rear GVWR is different or even tire pressure is different

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by mustang

..that is why the front and rear GVWR is different or even tire pressure is different

mustang

have u checked the axle rating (gawr) on your truck?

mine is 6000 front and 6100 rear.

cheers
2air'

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by mustang

The thing that confuses me the most is, The Airstream has 2 axles and so does the tow vehicle. The position of those axles is the only difference. So I think it would make more sense to split it in half rather than per axle because you cant possibly split the trailer axles.

What are you suggesting should be split in half? Is it the TT tongue weight?

By, "split in half", do you mean that one half of the tongue weight should be distributed to the TV axles and one half to the TT axles?

Ron

[mustang]

I have 5200 front and 6100 rear GAWR. GVWR is 9200 total It is hard to beleive you can load a front axle the same as a rear, of course the engine weight up front starts it heavier so inturn you transfer less weight to the front and get equal weights. Right?

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by mustang

I have 5200 front and 6100 rear GAWR. GVWR is 9200 total It is hard to beleive you can load a front axle the same as a rear, of course the engine weight up front starts it heavier so inturn you transfer less weight to the front and get equal weights. Right?

I'll try to answer by using an example which might or might not correspond to an actual TV/TT combination.

Let's assume the TV, before hitching up the TT, weighs 8000# with the weight distributed 55%/45% on front and rear axles. Also assume the TT has a tongue weight of 1,000#.

The initial TV axle loads would be 4,400# front and 3,600# rear.

After hooking up the TT and before WD is applied, the TV axle loads (depending on TV wheelbase and ball overhang) might change to 3,900# front and 5,100# rear.

If the WD system could remove 720# from the rear axle and add 480# to the front axle, the final TV loads would be 4,380# front and 4,380# rear. At the same time, the WD system must transfer 240# to the TT axles.

The net re-distrubution of load would be:
20# removed from front axle
780# added to rear axle
240# added to TT axles

Ron

[mustang]

I called Ford, I asked how much weight can a person load on the steering axle. They told me, it depends on the axle and the springs. A half ton truck unless properly equiped should have no more than 4000 lbs on the steers. He said that is pretty much all mfg. Now telling me this I asked what about my truck 250 super Duty 4x4. I have the snow plow package. HE said that puts beefier springs up front. ( I recall this from another thread in refference to chevy tow vehicle) so they must be simialar. He told me with a snow plow package 6000 lbs is max 250 and 350s Super Duty. My point, Before I load my steering axle, I should check the axles/ spring capactiy, or bad things could happen.

[dpandorf]

Originally Posted by mustang

I called Ford, I asked how much weight can a person load on the steering axle. They told me, it depends on the axle and the springs. A half ton truck unless properly equiped should have no more than 4000 lbs on the steers. He said that is pretty much all mfg. Now telling me this I asked what about my truck 250 super Duty 4x4. I have the snow plow package. HE said that puts beefier springs up front. ( I recall this from another thread in refference to chevy tow vehicle) so they must be simialar. He told me with a snow plow package 6000 lbs is max 250 and 350s Super Duty. My point, Before I load my steering axle, I should check the axles/ spring capactiy, or bad things could happen.

Your truck's driver door jam has a plate that lists the appropriate specs for axle weights along with the tire pressure to get to those weights.

[mustang]

dpandorf I posted those earlier but those are GAWR not GCWR I was always told GCWR is the true carrying capacity I should look at. many people see GVWR and think that is what there trailer weights in at. not true. I dont meen to confuse anyone. GCWR is the easiest for total tow anmount Gross Combine Weight Ratio. then just subtract acctual tow vehicle weight all loaded up by the GCWR and that is how much you can tow.

[dpandorf]

Originally Posted by mustang

dpandorf I posted those earlier but those are GAWR not GCWR I was always told GCWR is the true carrying capacity I should look at. many people see GVWR and think that is what there trailer weights in at. not true. I dont meen to confuse anyone. GCWR is the easiest for total tow anmount Gross Combine Weight Ratio. then just subtract acctual tow vehicle weight all loaded up by the GCWR and that is how much you can tow.

Agree. A lot to digest and sometimes can be confusing. Like we've talked about here and other forum topics on this site, even though the TV can tow a certain amount is not the whole picture when analyzing the whole picture.

[mustang]

I dont now if this is off topic at this point. I might start another thread. I have called a couple dealers Chevy Toyota and dodge. Everyone I have talked to understands what I am asking but have no DATA to support a answere. It is pretty standard that they have all said no more than 4000 lbs on steering for half ton, BUT I want a definate answere. facts.

[richinny]

try the factory websites for the specific vehicle ratings.