V-6 Turbo diesel for '14 Ram PU

[switz]

As a reference point, we drove through the mountains in 102 heat Monday on I-10 enroute to Long Beach, CA.

The Cummins diesel engine water temperature was about 202 - 204. Transmission temperature was 168 to 170 and the rear differential was about 10 degrees cooler. The turbo charger EGT was under 900 degrees most of the time.

The rig scaled 18,860 pounds that morning. We were running in 6th gear at 65 mph.

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by switz

As a reference point, we drove through the mountains in 102 heat Monday on I-10 enroute to Long Beach, CA.

The Cummins diesel engine water temperature was about 202 - 204. Transmission temperature was 168 to 170 and the rear differential was about 10 degrees cooler. The turbo charger EGT was under 900 degrees most of the time.

The rig scaled 18,860 pounds that morning. We were running in 6th gear at 65 mph.

Sounds good.

I'm going to make a prediction here: when the "new" Cummins engine finally appears in the Tundra and possibly the Titan, I will predict the users will see the engines running water temps of high 190's to 205, and oil temps of 215 to 225.
I'll come back here and eat crow if I am wrong on that.

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by switz

As a reference point, we drove through the mountains in 102 heat Monday on I-10 enroute to Long Beach, CA.

The Cummins diesel engine water temperature was about 202 - 204. Transmission temperature was 168 to 170 and the rear differential was about 10 degrees cooler. The turbo charger EGT was under 900 degrees most of the time.

The rig scaled 18,860 pounds that morning. We were running in 6th gear at 65 mph.

Thanks! That is a great reference for someone with a RAM 2500/6.7l Cummins towing a heavy Classic, loaded down with batteries, generators and all the other things you carry that some don't. Even with all that that, it is still only about 60% of your RAM 2500's towing capacity. I wonder how different your numbers would be if you were pulling a 16,000lb 5er. Maybe not much different. I think that engine is capable of towing up to 30,000lbs in some configurations, no?

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by Top

Thanks! That is a great reference for someone with a RAM 2500/6.7l Cummins towing a heavy Classic, loaded down with batteries, generators and all the other things you carry that some don't. Even with all that that, it is still only about 60% of your RAM 2500's towing capacity. I wonder how different your numbers would be if you were pulling a 16,000lb 5er. Maybe not much different. I think that engine is capable of towing up to 30,000lbs in some configurations, no?

Lance,
While it's not a Cummins, I routinely pull 13K to 15K worth of equipment trailer or horse trailer with a powerstroke, and rarely see water temps over 210F.
Ford specs normal service to be 190-200. Severe service (towing) 200-215. Over 215 it alarms, and at 221 it de-rates power.
Usually somewhere around 210, the fan is kicked into "roaring" mode, although there are other things that also tell the fan to go full on ( trans temp and I believe IAT ), so it can vary as to when you hear the fan. When the fan kicks into it's serious mode, it generally pulls the temps back down pretty quickly.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Top

I wonder why some of you feel the need to compare a 1500 with a 2500. They are apples and pumpkins. The RAM 1500 diesel should be compared with other same category trucks like the Ford F-150, Silverado 1500, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan etal. There is no question that a RAM 2500 with 6.7l Cummins will do more than the RAM 1500 with a 3.0l diesel. But, not everyone wants or needs a truck with the capabilities of the RAM 2500. Not to mention they cost more to purchase, cost more to maintain, insurance is higher and they consume more fuel.
When the Titan and Tundra diesels comes out in a few years with the V8 Cummins, there will be more apples to compare apples.

[1] Fuel consumption, solo & towing, [2] when married to engine design (MTBO, mean time between overhaul) is the short answer.

A CTD is a 385k mile design (GM & FORD are sub-225k miles) so where the 1/2T-diesel is any advantage over a gasser motor (sub-200k miles) is a question worth asking and contemplating.

As I've posted previously, in a close comparison with a man who has my same truck but with the HEMI engine, when diesel is no more than 50-cents/gal higher than gasoline, the fuel cost is a wash for the purchase price difference.

What then matters is engine health sufficient to continue working. A worn motor can get you around town for years . . but it is becoming it's own hazard if asked to do real work. A well-cared for gasser might still be okay at 200k, but I'd be pricing re-man motors. The Cummins in my truck at 197k is a ways past the half-way point in both miles and engine hours. Original clutch, one brake re-line and second set of tires (etc). So let's not be too quick about higher operational or ownership costs . . which is why I recommend a close comparison with a 2500.

Where this new motor will be at 150-200k miles is, IMO, a very big deal if I am buying a diesel for it's inherent virtues. Otherwise, why get one? (asked rhetorically).

I specified a 2WD, manual transmission CTD for longest life at lowest cost with highest reliability. No other brand pickup could meet what DODGE already produced. That the truck also features IFS plus rack & pinion steering makes an already ideal vehicle that much better for towing, as handling winds in a combined vehicle is at least as important (I say more important) than just engine power or cargo capacity. And I bought this truck as it was for the business I was in at that time (real estate). The 1/2-T it replaced was completely outclassed in every category past initial price.

EDMUNDS "True Cost to Own" is where I'd begin . . come up with an understanding of cents-per-mile of owner/operator costs. As with recommending this TT type to others -- where nights aboard over years of ownership is the metric -- so too with a tool as expensive as a TV where miles and years can be greater than the usual "trade at five or seven" with more than 1/2 of vehicle life remaining.

The "magic" is not in the truck (the spec) but in the owner. The purchase demanded of me a new way of driving that was not just monkey skills (never stop, never idle when en route) , but in not turning the key without a route plan (MAPQUEST "Best Order Routing"). A 21-mpg average is the result. Tire and brakes that go over 100k is another. Further exertions taught me that I can underwrite as much as 5k miles of "free" vacation travel by upping my (then) normal daily driving habits to something better. Etc. A turbodiesel motor can be operated at a lower-than-EPA fuel consumption average more easily than a gasser in my experience.

Diesel power is not a panacea in and of itself. The numbers have to be shown to work.

And, BITOG has, like a lot of enthusiast sites over time (I was an original member) lost focus and become dependent on "board consensus". Analysis is good, but it also is no panacea. I recommend the services of certified tribologist Terry Dyson over lab rats however good.

The only real drawback to a 3/4T is in wheelbase length. But for a sub-7k A/S of reasonable length, a car or minivan is a better choice than any truck for a vacationer. So place this TD 1/2T in full context as well, not just among the handicapped TV's.

.

[xrvr]

My one ton cummins has a six and a half foot bed and four doors, same size as most halfton trucks. So where is the disadvantage of a three quarter ton on wheel base? I also have srw, it is an 06. Sorry to hijack the thread. I think this new diesel will prove to be great. Jim

[slowmover]

Mine's 160". Some are 172" and greater. My 2001 Dodge was 134" The luxury cars of the 1960's and '70's were 127" to 130" while the full size were 124" or somewhat less. A Honda Odyssey is on par with the 80's/'90's Chev Caprice at around 118".

A new DODGE is likely 140". The combo of wb and weight is what is complained about in moving to higher ratings.

The CHP in the early 1960's determinned that a WB of 122" was ideal as to capacity and handling. About 4k empty. Still stands up today in accident statistics where the "safety" curve flattens out above these numbers. Or, why a Mercedes underpinned Charger/300 is so good as police, fleet or tow vehicle. A police Tahoe is severely modified and rated far lower than a Charger. An excellent starting point, IOW.

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by slowmover

[1] Fuel consumption, solo & towing, [2] when married to engine design (MTBO, mean time between overhaul) is the short answer.

A CTD is a 385k mile design (GM & FORD are sub-225k miles) so where the 1/2T-diesel is any advantage over a gasser motor (sub-200k miles) is a question worth asking and contemplating.

As I've posted previously, in a close comparison with a man who has my same truck but with the HEMI engine, when diesel is no more than 50-cents/gal higher than gasoline, the fuel cost is a wash for the purchase price difference.

What then matters is engine health sufficient to continue working. A worn motor can get you around town for years . . but it is becoming it's own hazard if asked to do real work. A well-cared for gasser might still be okay at 200k, but I'd be pricing re-man motors. The Cummins in my truck at 197k is a ways past the half-way point in both miles and engine hours. Original clutch, one brake re-line and second set of tires (etc). So let's not be too quick about higher operational or ownership costs . . which is why I recommend a close comparison with a 2500.

Where this new motor will be at 150-200k miles is, IMO, a very big deal if I am buying a diesel for it's inherent virtues. Otherwise, why get one? (asked rhetorically).

I specified a 2WD, manual transmission CTD for longest life at lowest cost with highest reliability. No other brand pickup could meet what DODGE already produced. That the truck also features IFS plus rack & pinion steering makes an already ideal vehicle that much better for towing, as handling winds in a combined vehicle is at least as important (I say more important) than just engine power or cargo capacity. And I bought this truck as it was for the business I was in at that time (real estate). The 1/2-T it replaced was completely outclassed in every category past initial price.

EDMUNDS "True Cost to Own" is where I'd begin . . come up with an understanding of cents-per-mile of owner/operator costs. As with recommending this TT type to others -- where nights aboard over years of ownership is the metric -- so too with a tool as expensive as a TV where miles and years can be greater than the usual "trade at five or seven" with more than 1/2 of vehicle life remaining.

The "magic" is not in the truck (the spec) but in the owner. The purchase demanded of me a new way of driving that was not just monkey skills (never stop, never idle when en route) , but in not turning the key without a route plan (MAPQUEST "Best Order Routing"). A 21-mpg average is the result. Tire and brakes that go over 100k is another. Further exertions taught me that I can underwrite as much as 5k miles of "free" vacation travel by upping my (then) normal daily driving habits to something better. Etc. A turbodiesel motor can be operated at a lower-than-EPA fuel consumption average more easily than a gasser in my experience.

Diesel power is not a panacea in and of itself. The numbers have to be shown to work.

And, BITOG has, like a lot of enthusiast sites over time (I was an original member) lost focus and become dependent on "board consensus". Analysis is good, but it also is no panacea. I recommend the services of certified tribologist Terry Dyson over lab rats however good.

The only real drawback to a 3/4T is in wheelbase length. But for a sub-7k A/S of reasonable length, a car or minivan is a better choice than any truck for a vacationer. So place this TD 1/2T in full context as well, not just among the handicapped TV's.

.

Thanks for your thoughtful analysis, Slowmover. Always a pleasure to digest your thoughts.

Maybe for me, having lived half of the last 25 years in Europe, the thought of an Italian diesel engine with a German transmission in an American pickup is a marriage like no other.

As for the MTBO of the VM L630 DOHC, only time will tell. When I read what Gale Banks had to say about the engine and why he selected it for the special operations vehicle, my confidence in it grew substantially. VM Motori has been around a long time. It has many engines in service worldwide. I have not been able to find any shred of evidence to suspect anything "problematic" with any of their engines.

I have done my analysis on the RAM 2500/Cummins vs the RAM 1500 3.0L. It is possible to get a great deal on a 2500. $10,000 (18%) off MSRP on a 2500 is pretty common. The 1500 Ecodiesel is in short supply and high demand, so about $7,000 (14%) off MSRP. Similarly equipped, the 2500 can be had for just a few thousand more than the 1500 Ecodiesel if you buy off the lot. There lies my problem. Finding a truck exactly the way I want it. I will have to order a 1500 to get everything I want/need. Not a big problem. I'm patient. I haven't purchased a new vehicle in 12 years, so I want it to be EXACTLY configured.

In the next five to eight years, I plan to put a lot of highway miles on our next truck. About 5000 more towing miles per year. By my calculations based on 18,000 miles per year, the 2500 costs $1,300 per year more to purchase, insure, operate and maintain. Not a huge difference, but when the 1500 will comfortably do everything I need it to do, I can't really find any justification to buy a 2500 other than to have a really nice big A$$ truck.

[slowmover]

" . . Similarly equipped, the 2500 can be had for just a few thousand more than the 1500 Ecodiesel if you buy off the lot. There lies my problem . . . By my calculations based on 18,000 miles per year, the 2500 costs $1,300 per year more to purchase, insure, operate and maintain . . . Not a huge difference, but when the 1500 will comfortably do everything I need it to do, I can't really find any justification to buy a 2500 other than to have a really nice big A$$ truck.

$25/week for a drivetrain that won't break a sweat during the day-to-day as you see it at present.

I am not advocating for the larger truck, per se, as what an A/S "needs" is not what I/m thinking of, but of a family asset that can do a far larger range of work: move the business, the home, etc. Things can change would be the point to context, again. A 1/2T with an open-platform conventionally-hitched trailer can carry a good load, but it is no match for a GN dump trailer. The former is a homeowners pal, the latter is a genuine moneymaker. Keep it in mind. The amount of work either pickup can do is a much wider margin than the price differential. Finding a crew of strong backs isn't ever the problem . . . .

http://www.pjtrailers.com/brochures/DS_1000.jpg

And my compliments in return. Your posts are among the first I check in reference to tools, supplies, methods. Best of luck.

.

[wbrown]

Bought a 4x4 crew cab Big Horn Ram 1500 with the V6 diesel. Haven't towed with it yet, but expect to next week with a 2014 International 28'. Pretty thrilled with the 33mpg I'm getting on the highway, with a mixed mpg of 26-28mpg. Best vehicle I've ever driven.


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[Goin camping]

Originally Posted by wbrown

Bought a 4x4 crew cab Big Horn Ram 1500 with the V6 diesel. Haven't towed with it yet, but expect to next week with a 2014 International 28'. Pretty thrilled with the 33mpg I'm getting on the highway, with a mixed mpg of 26-28mpg. Best vehicle I've ever driven.


Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums

This is the post I have been waiting for! Can't wait to hear about your actual towing experience.

And now back to the why my Cummings is better.

[dznf0g]

Um, I know for a fact that the Dmax is durability tested to 500k miles, and I suspect Ford is comparable. Please show me your proof of 250k design for each, please.

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by slowmover

A CTD is a 385k mile design (GM & FORD are sub-225k miles) so where the 1/2T-diesel is any advantage over a gasser motor (sub-200k miles) is a question worth asking and contemplating.

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Um, I know for a fact that the Dmax is durability tested to 500k miles, and I suspect Ford is comparable. Please show me your proof of 250k design for each, please.

dznf0g,
Are you referring to the post by slowmover above?

[dznf0g]

Yes, sorry, sometimes quote doesn't work on my phone.

[RamblinManGa]

Hi from AZ. . . as my old man told me a looong time ago, don't buy the 1st year of anything ! ! Let them get the initial bugs worked out. Italian diesel, German transmission & American truck indeed ! AND $55k for a new 1/2 ton truck just seems out of the question. Nice looking package but. . .regards, Craig

[wbrown]

Originally Posted by RamblinManGa

Hi from AZ. . . as my old man told me a looong time ago, don't buy the 1st year of anything ! ! Let them get the initial bugs worked out. Italian diesel, German transmission & American truck indeed ! AND $55k for a new 1/2 ton truck just seems out of the question. Nice looking package but. . .regards, Craig

I paid far less for mine.

Hint #1: Don't get the Laramie trim. It will cost you two hundred pounds in payload.
Hint #2: Be mentally prepared to just walk. Walk and come back the next day.
Hint #3: Negotiate based on how the truck doesn't meet your needs.
Hint #4: Navigation is a software upgrade and cost to dealer and Chrysler is low.

In the end, I got about $13K off MSRP for the 4x4 Bighorn Crew Cab package.


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[RamblinManGa]

Hi again from AZ. . .out here I hear they're in short supply & getting full price. I'd be interested to hear how it does towing your 28 footer, we're towing FC28 with Ecoboost F150. . . thanks, Craig

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by RamblinManGa

Hi again from AZ. . .out here I hear they're in short supply & getting full price. . . thanks, Craig

Who said that? The dealer?

Originally Posted by RamblinManGa

Hi from AZ. . . as my old man told me a looong time ago, don't buy the 1st year of anything ! ! Let them get the initial bugs worked out. Italian diesel, German transmission & American truck indeed ! AND $55k for a new 1/2 ton truck just seems out of the question. Nice looking package but. . .regards, Craig

I ordered a new '14 RAM 1500 EcoDiesel at the beginning of June. It was built a week or so ago and should be delivered this month. It is true that they are selling really well and the rebates and discounts are much less than the gas 1500s, however, I negotiated a sale price that was 14% off MSRP. Probably not the best deal in the world, but the truck is exactly what I want. It is an SLT Lone Star edition, Crew Cab 4x4, 6'4" bed, black, Katzkin leather, sunroof, tow mirrors, brake control, rear camera, luxury group, 3.92 anti slip diff.
I'm pretty excited for it to get here

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Um, I know for a fact that the Dmax is durability tested to 500k miles, and I suspect Ford is comparable. Please show me your proof of 250k design for each, please.

You can go to Fleet Owner magazine, for one. CUMMINS itself published comparative MTBO numbers for years as a sales pitch.

GM and FORD make light duty diesels for light duty trucks. Dodge sourced a medium duty engine and has had -- with the manual transmissions and latest Aisin-Warner transmission -- medium duty drivetrains overall.

Durability testing is not the same as projected lifespan. Fully one-half of FORD and GM diesel engines are expected to need re-building by or before 225k miles. IOW, buying a used one at 100k means maybe another 100k out of a 300k mile vehicle.

Fleets turn over vehicles rapidly enough . . it is the individual owner, private or commercial, who needs pay more attention.

Sure, I see FORD and occasionally GM with some loads in the oilfield. Usually fleet, not hotshot. And more of them gassers. Hotshot are hurrying in every sense of the word. GCW above 30k has been SOP for years. Somewhere between 300-350k miles it was time for another truck as well-site lease roads are no picnic (the double strength frame on the Peterbilt I drive today is proof of the need as the extra weight over a road-only tractor is substantial and cuts revenue); that 1T pickup has to be dependable. You have to have confidence to push it, not baby it.

I lately drive 600-700 miles daily across Texas. Louisiana and Oklahoma taking loads from Gulf Coast mills to oil patch distribution centers. If I saw more than Dodge, I'd say so. The advances in fracking in just the past couple of years has opened opportunities in older areas, not just new plays. Oklahoma saw 4,600 wells completed last year, alone, but one reads primarily about the Bakken Shale in North Dakota and the Eagle Ford in South Texas. Hell, the Permian Basin is so busy at present that some of our customers cannot schedule enough rail cars for delivery thus we are carrying truckloads to them 500 miles and more. That's damned expensive (5 or 6-truckloads = 1-railcar). Sometimes I even have tankers waiting for me to offload into them as I arrive. Etc.

Don't worry, there are plenty of FORD fanbois down here as well . . probably see more of that brand than any other in 1T. Just not under a hot and heavy load with a drilling rig about to stand by at $25,000 per hour if you don't get there, oh, an hour ago. Might be a specialized tool. And on return you load the trailer with everything from drill motors to all sorts of odds and ends to the maximum. And have to hurry them hundreds of miles to be rebuilt as they are already scheduled elsewhere.

Hotshot pays well for the smart operator. And they do not take chances on equipment. Their customers will just call someone else in the future.

.

[RamblinManGa]

Hi Top. . . no, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, info from 2 ASers I know in AZ. Sounds like a great package you're getting, hope it works out for you. I love my Ecoboost F150. It stickered at $44k, & cost me $35.8k, so really similar deal. Good luck & let us know how you love it, Regards, Craig