Is diesel dead?

[Mergatroyd]

I think most people would agree that a diesel makes for a better tow vehicle, but has the EPA killed off this option for SUV's and 1/2 ton pickup trucks? I just noticed that Mercedes Benz is no longer offering a diesel, and there are thousands of Ram EcoDiesels sitting in storage lots, unable to be sold, as their fate is being decided. Ford said they were coming out with a diesel F-150 in 2018, but will it really happen? Meanwhile, Europe, where more than half the cars sold are diesels, is on an anti-diesel crusade that may well finish off the diesel market completely.

[RandyNH]

I would think that with new EPA regulations, diesels should be fine.

Maybe now we can get diesel motorcycles instead of electric ones, like the military did with the KLR...

[pt.reyesfan]

If diesel vehicle demand drops off, diesel fuel prices will drop and that will - eventually - stimulate demand. (Refiners can't make big shifts in gasoline to diesel production ratio without major investments.)

[HowieE]

The price of diesel is connected to the usage in Europe not the USA. A few years ago we started shipping diesel to Europe and that is when the price went up above gas. The percentage of diesels in Europe is approaching 75%. They are not stupid.

Diesel is not dead it more efficient and the cost per mile is still less than gas. The hold back in the use of diesel here is the public is not prepared to manage a diesel vehicle. Yes there is a significant increase in the management of a diesel over the current bread of throwaway gas engines in use. If you spend twice as much for the engine yo had better be prepared to maintain it.

Tomorrow I have to surrender my VW TDI under the federal recall. That is without a doubt the best car I have ever owned. 44 mph and the power of a sports car. I am keeping my Ford diesel that gets 13 mph that drips more carbon on the ground than the VW could ever produce as a product of driving. Does anyone question the logic?

[55AS]

Originally Posted by HowieE

The price of diesel is connected to the usage in Europe not the USA. A few years ago we started shipping diesel to Europe and that is when the price went up above gas. The percentage of diesels in Europe is approaching 75%. They are not stupid.

Diesel is not dead it more efficient and the cost per mile is still less than gas. The hold back in the use of diesel here is the public is not prepared to manage a diesel vehicle. Yes there is a significant increase in the management of a diesel over the current bread of throwaway gas engines in use. If you spend twice as much for the engine yo had better be prepared to maintain it.

Tomorrow I have to surrender my VW TDI under the federal recall. That is without a doubt the best car I have ever owned. 44 mph and the power of a sports car. I am keeping my Ford diesel that gets 13 mph that drips more carbon on the ground than the VW could ever produce as a product of driving. Does anyone question the logic?

Takes a long time to get anywhere at 44 mph:-)

[HowieE]

Never looked at it that way. Even more at 13MPH :-)

[dkottum]

I like the diesels for their low rpm torque (especially versatile with an eight speed transmission) and 30 mpg with our pickup and 45 mpg with our TDI sedan on the highway. Repairs on the 1 year old truck and 11 year old car have been zero, only routine maintenance.

[jcl]

I don't think diesel is dead, as there are lots of applications where it makes sense. For passenger vehicles, though, I would say yes, in North America. Manufacturers will not want to take on the investment risk to develop and certify vehicles they may not be able to sell for long enough to cover their investment.

For tow vehicles, I see one ton trucks as safe. Less than that, not so much (half tons, SUVs, cars). Look at Germany, where cities are banning diesels other than Euro 6 models from the cities. That excludes 90% of diesels on the road there. And places like Stuttgart, which imposed a ban, are where those investment decisions are made.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwin.../#a7ad86272885

[KJRitchie]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Tomorrow I have to surrender my VW TDI under the federal recall. That is without a doubt the best car I have ever owned. 44 mph and the power of a sports car. I am keeping my Ford diesel that gets 13 mph that drips more carbon on the ground than the VW could ever produce as a product of driving. Does anyone question the logic?

My brother in law has a VW Passat TDI and he's not getting rid of it despite all the ruckus.

The government is forcing you to turning it in?

Kelvin

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by pt.reyesfan

If diesel vehicle demand drops off, diesel fuel prices will drop and that will - eventually - stimulate demand.

Unfortunately, as long as over the road trucks use diesel, the cost will stay high. The percentage of diesel passenger cars is minuscule.
Unfortunately, the US market has been killed off by poorly designed diesel engines in cars (and some trucks).
Add high maintenance and really high repairs, and the advantage disappears.
I always wanted one of those classic Mercedes 240D's.
They seemed to go forever!

Originally Posted by RandyNH

Maybe now we can get diesel motorcycles instead of electric ones, like the military did with the KLR...

The military converted the KLR, not because it was a good idea, or worked better, but rather because they only want to deliver one type of fuel.
If everything ran on diesel fuel, it's easier to supply a war zone.
(I have a KLR 650, gas, and it's a fantastic back country bike for the money!)

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Tomorrow I have to surrender my VW TDI under the federal recall. That is without a doubt the best car I have ever owned. 44 mph and the power of a sports car. I am keeping my Ford diesel that gets 13 mph that drips more carbon on the ground than the VW could ever produce as a product of driving. Does anyone question the logic?

I'm sure you meant to say 44mpg not mph. It's funny in Europe they are just doing a software update on the 2 and 1.4 liter diesels. On the 1.6 there is a an extra part that goes in. The testing they have done to date says that there is only a 2% hit in the fuel economy. Kind of strange that you have to give up your car. Can they not just do the same update here?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

Can they not just do the same update here?

Diffferent emissions standards. Meeting the Euro standard doesn't mean that an engine meets the NA standard. It isnt just the numerical value of the controlled pollutant, but which pollutant it is.

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

My brother in law has a VW Passat TDI and he's not getting rid of it despite all the ruckus.

The government is forcing you to turning it in?

Kelvin

Your brother-in-law HAS to turn it in if it's a 2009 or later 2.0 TDI, except for Items 1 and 3 below. The VW settlement with EPA and CARB (how the hell does a california STATE agency get so much say so in something like this?) stipulates 3 options:

1. Fix your car (IF a fix is approved...so far there isn't one) and take some cash. In my case that would be around $8,000 for my 2014 VW TDI Sportwagon.

2. VW buys back your car, AND gives you the penalty cash. For me, that's $28,600 (for a car that had a sticker price of $26,500 and I paid $25,500).

3. The settlement has a third option that is not really publicized, as EPA and CARB are so set on getting these evil vehicles off the road. Keep your car, and get no cash or settlement money, IF your state accepted a payment from the settlement to use toward "pollution mitigation". The state has to agree to never fail the car on emissions testing.

The crazy thing is that I don't have to turn in my car until Dec 2018, and actually, my payment will increase another $600 if I wait till then and manage the miles that I put on it. Everyone is rushing to turn in their cars to get their cash, which I guess makes sense for an older one that might have some maintenance costs cropping up. In my case, I LOVE my car and hate to lose it, but I'll drive it another year and a half for free, no hurry to turn it in and buy something else.

What is ludicrous about the whole thing is what is the environmental impact of a half million cars being turned in and crushed, including the impact of the manufacture and transport of 500,000 replacement cars? I'm willing to bet that these cars are cleaner than half the cars on the road, but because they didn't actually meet the NOx limits (that's where vw cheated with the emissions devices), they have to be taken off the road.

I believe of course that VW should have been punished HARD like they were, but instead of buying back cars, they should have been forced to pay the owners some dollars, and the rest of the buyback funds paid in penalties to EPA and the states. The whole thing is a massive cluster.

[sgschwend]

When I read the title I assumed the question was about emissions. I would say the standards will help clean our air and reduce acid rain, but in doing so I believe the diesel pickup with emissions is a mere shadow of its former self.

For Example: look at the turbo temperature with the diesel particle filter and diesel catalytic converter attached compared to the early 2000 pick-ups as an example of an engine that when it develops pulling power runs the risk of over temperature in the turbo. At least I have observed this on the Western slopes.

[ctdair]

Loved My VW Jetta TDI best car I've ever had. Several reasons I turned it in for the cash. Still have a Dodge Diesel and milage is terrible EPA strangling diesels in this country.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by sgschwend

When I read the title I assumed the question was about emissions. I would say the standards will help clean our air and reduce acid rain, but in doing so I believe the diesel pickup with emissions is a mere shadow of its former self.

For Example: look at the turbo temperature with the diesel particle filter and diesel catalytic converter attached compared to the early 2000 pick-ups as an example of an engine that when it develops pulling power runs the risk of over temperature in the turbo. At least I have observed this on the Western slopes.

The computer will not let the temps get too high, you can watch my ram temps pushing it, the computer adjusts the fuel...all you have to do is drive it, just like the cat in my KW...no pyrometer and 1.4 million miles..

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Unfortunately, as long as over the road trucks use diesel, the cost will stay high. The percentage of diesel passenger cars is minuscule.
Unfortunately, the US market has been killed off by poorly designed diesel engines in cars (and some trucks).
Add high maintenance and really high repairs, and the advantage disappears.
I always wanted one of those classic Mercedes 240D's.
They seemed to go forever!

The military converted the KLR, not because it was a good idea, or worked better, but rather because they only want to deliver one type of fuel.
If everything ran on diesel fuel, it's easier to supply a war zone.
(I have a KLR 650, gas, and it's a fantastic back country bike for the money!)

. I don't think there are any poorly designed Diesel engines on the market today, I have never had any problem with any Diesel engine ,cat or Cummings ,in over 50 years, 1967 to 2017, count them...there is Cessna aviation is expermenting with Diesel engines because of longer TBO....

[Alan 117]

I have been driving a 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 pickup with the Cummins Diesel engine for the last 14 years (265,000 miles so far). Maintenance costs aren't any more compared to the gasoline version it replaced with one exception. Oil changes are more because the diesel takes 3 gallons of oil compared to 5 quarts for the gas version. Last month I pulled our new to us Flying Cloud 30 from Memphis Tennessee to Southern California and got 15 mpg doing it. My sons V8 powered pickup gets 11 mpg when not towing. The average American trades vehicles about every three and a half years. So while the average American has owned four vehicles, I've owned one truck. This to me is way more efficient. YMMV

[J. Morgan]

Your 2003 was built near the top of the game for American light diesels. Things have changed.

[John Geisen]

Originally Posted by Alan 117

I have been driving a 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 pickup with the Cummins Diesel engine for the last 14 years (265,000 miles so far). Maintenance costs aren't any more compared to the gasoline version it replaced with one exception. Oil changes are more because the diesel takes 3 gallons of oil compared to 5 quarts for the gas version. Last month I pulled our new to us Flying Cloud 30 from Memphis Tennessee to Southern California and got 15 mpg doing it. My sons V8 powered pickup gets 11 mpg when not towing. The average American trades vehicles about every three and a half years. So while the average American has owned four vehicles, I've owned one truck. This to me is way more efficient. YMMV

I have the same 2003 Dodge with Cummins Diesel as well and love it! It's been wonderful. I hate the automatic transmission. The S is the weak spot. Now wish I would have purchased it with stick shift. -John