Ford VS Ram

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

Just get under the truck and look at the frame, then decide which one to buy. I did...

I did, under the pickups the Ford looks like a Ram.....only the 2500 Ram has coils on the rear....went with Ram...

[TravlinMan]

Leaf springs make me cry.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by KK4YZ

I'll just say this: unless you're an experienced mechanical engineer with a seat of SolidWorks or similar modeling software and have built up a complete model of your truck (a HUGE) task, how are you really going to know what specs to ignore or believe? We really have no choice but to go by the specs from the manufacturer.. and allow yourself some margin. Doing otherwise is just folly.

In the past 20 years there have been huge advances in modeling tools and experimental techniques that help ME's do a better job of mechanical design.

Real world, friend. Models are great until they aren't. In this case, of setting a WD hitch.

Plenty of room to skate around in SAE J2807. Eliminates many possible vehicles in sole favor of pickups.

1) Don't test entire categories of vehicles.

2) And fudge the ones tested towards a predetermined outcome.

Has nothing to do with models. It does have to do with honesty.

As it's some of the same actors going back 40-years, I'm pretty well spot on.

And who said engineers are the power? Not me. I've no problem with tire and axle ratings.

I do when tow guidelines are revised to favor one class of vehicles over another. Not in the name of safety, but of profit. Not an engineering decision.

"Modern" WD settings been effectively refuted.

Test for yourself.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

I did, under the pickups the Ford looks like a Ram.....only the 2500 Ram has coils on the rear....went with Ram...

Yeah, the coil springs were the deciding factor for me too. They do work great on my car, though...

[Rich Jenkins]

Originally Posted by jcl

I wouldn't use the word "ignore" but I would use my engineering judgement and experience to decide what "weight" to apply to each manufacturer's recommendation. They are all there for a reason, but some are engineering numbers and some are marketing numbers.



Example 1. Sport utility. Masimum rated tongue weight from manufacturer 350 lbs, tow rating 3500 lbs. Coincidence? Aftermarket receivers available to 600 lbs tongue weight rating. Vehicle rated payload 1100 lbs, from manufacturer. With a stock hitch, the 350 lb rating is there for a reason. Decided to address the weakest link, the factory receiver. This doesn't change the other engineering limits (axle ratings etc) but it lets one carry to the payload the vehicle was designed to carry. Vehicle has four large discs, excellent braking, very good handlng, and 260 hp, enough for a trailer a little larger than 3500 lbs. Some would say I was ignoring the limit of 350 lbs associated with the stock receiver. By removing and replacing that receiver I worked around the limitation.



Example 2. Toyota car. Looked in the owners manual last week to get the maintenance interval for a family member. Saw the towing page. First page was titled: For Canadian customers. Tow ratings, hitch discussion, tongue weight calculations, trailer brake requirements. Pretty good for a vehicle not targeted at towing customers. Following pages: For American customers. Don't tow. Vehicle not designed to tow. Various warnings related to havoc and disaster. Same vehicle. They don't even print different owners manuals. The car wasn't built in the US or Canada. In the home country, the trailer towing limits are higher than the Canadian limits. And the towing section of the manual has a drawing showing where to attach a drawbar to the chassis, which has blind nuts installed ready to use. So, an America can customer could conclude that the vehicle wasn't designed to tow. Obviously, engineering decisions had nothing to do with it.



The point is, understanding the manufacturer's recommendations and the reasons for them matters more than blindly following them.



I have used solid modelling software, years ago. One case was with a 3300 kw diesel genset with a vibration. 4600 hp engine was fine. Coupling was fine. Generator was fine, but all together we had a system issue at a critical speed. It made no sense to model the system. But modelling the end plate of the generator helped us to design stiffeners to move the vibration to a frequency range that didn't matter. All we modelled was the end plate.



Similarly, I wouldn't try modelling a full vehicle. Too many variables. This is a red herring, IMO. The towing equivalent is looking at the receiver if it is the limitation.



But neither would I blindly follow recommendations. Doing so can create as many dangers as exceeding some figures. That is because some people purchase large vehicles, look only at a few key numbers, and decide they are therefor safe. They ignore towing set up, which matters more than anything else. After a crash, they can be heard saying "But it was safe, I was within the tow rating" even though they caused the crash through their own decisions, or lack of them. They had a false sense of security.



Pay attention to manufacturer's recommendation. But don't think it is a pass card of some sort. It is just the starting point. And knowing why those recommendations are there can lead to better setup, and an overall rig that is safer.



Jeff

Excellent post.

/thread

(But of course, it isn't. )

[Rich Jenkins]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

I did, under the pickups the Ford looks like a Ram.....only the 2500 Ram has coils on the rear....went with Ram...

This, the Cummins, and the Ram Boxes were the primary reasons I went with the Ram 2500.

Wife and I were kicking around heading over to Germany at sometime. Unfortunately she nixed me shipping my truck.

I'd still really like to take it around the Nurburgring though.

[Hans627]

Originally Posted by Llando88

This, the Cummins, and the Ram Boxes were the primary reasons I went with the Ram 2500.

Wife and I were kicking around heading over to Germany at sometime. Unfortunately she nixed me shipping my truck.

I'd still really like to take it around the Nurburgring though.

I must say that I love my Ram Boxes also. Really a creative storage system.

[Rich Jenkins]

Have any of you guys with Ram Boxes found a good truck bed cover for it?

[Hans627]

Originally Posted by Llando88

Have any of you guys with Ram Boxes found a good truck bed cover for it?

Recognizing that "good" is a relative term I have been using Bakflip as a bed cover. Works for me. Have had it four years now and it has held up well.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Llando88

This, the Cummins, and the Ram Boxes were the primary reasons I went with the Ram 2500.

Wife and I were kicking around heading over to Germany at sometime. Unfortunately she nixed me shipping my truck.

I'd still really like to take it around the Nurburgring though.

Hi

Getting a truck into Europe is something that takes some research. They have different standards for lights, so there almost always is a bit of "conversion" involved. The next issue is weight. They may not consider your truck to be "personal use" vehicle. You may need their equivalent of a CDL to drive it. Last up is the basic issue of turn radius and narrow roads / streets. They can be a challenge with a pretty normal American sedan. With a nice big truck ... yikes !! Surprisingly, the shipping cost isn't to crazy. Shipping speed ... that's a different issue.

Bob

[Rich Jenkins]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi



Getting a truck into Europe is something that takes some research. They have different standards for lights, so there almost always is a bit of "conversion" involved. The next issue is weight. They may not consider your truck to be "personal use" vehicle. You may need their equivalent of a CDL to drive it. Last up is the basic issue of turn radius and narrow roads / streets. They can be a challenge with a pretty normal American sedan. With a nice big truck ... yikes !! Surprisingly, the shipping cost isn't to crazy. Shipping speed ... that's a different issue.



Bob

I shipped my Honda Accord over to the UK for what turned out to be a five year assignment. I shipped it back, along with my 1967 Austin Cooper S, at the end of my assignment. Quite a few of the 150 families on my project did this.

Generally, lights are not a problem, it's the aiming for driving on the left vs. right. This is fairly easy to address; cars are provided left/right and up/down adjustments to throw the beam on the other side as needed.

Registering for my number plate did not involve weight or size classification, at least in the U.K.

Driving on roads in and around our village was no problem. It is true the lined parking spaces are smaller in Europe, however in five years of driving, including taking and passing a full U.K. Driving license through the DVLA, there was not a situation I was too large.

With a Ram 2500, yes, that might be interesting; but I'm not much different than a Mercedes Sprinter Van. Would I take it through Cornwall where the hedges are stone underneath? Probably not lol.

But you'd be surprised how many American cars are driving around over there.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I've spent enough time in Europe to notice all the "big American cars" running around. The very fact you can easily notice them suggests something. Both going to and coming back from Europe, our family had lights switched out. Apparently the range of adjustment is not a "given" for all manufacturers. We also had one or more of the rear light sets switched out. Apparently they were "to bright" for the French (or not bright enough ... I forget).

The "weight thing" is unique to trucks and large vans. Here in the US we bump from class C to class B to class A. Each transition is keyed by various characteristics of the vehicle and some seem a bit arbitrary. Some states even have "interesting" ideas about what's what. The EU has it's own rules and (surprise !!) each country has rules as well. Effectively what happens is your 8,800 lb truck is a "class C" here in the US and a "class A" over there. For a while last year, people going into Mexico had a similar problem.

Bob

[Rich Jenkins]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi



I've spent enough time in Europe to notice all the "big American cars" running around. The very fact you can easily notice them suggests something. Both going to and coming back from Europe, our family had lights switched out. Apparently the range of adjustment is not a "given" for all manufacturers. We also had one or more of the rear light sets switched out. Apparently they were "to bright" for the French (or not bright enough ... I forget).



The "weight thing" is unique to trucks and large vans. Here in the US we bump from class C to class B to class A. Each transition is keyed by various characteristics of the vehicle and some seem a bit arbitrary. Some states even have "interesting" ideas about what's what. The EU has it's own rules and (surprise !!) each country has rules as well. Effectively what happens is your 8,800 lb truck is a "class C" here in the US and a "class A" over there. For a while last year, people going into Mexico had a similar problem.



Bob

Cool; useful info.

I still want to drive my 2500 on the Nurburgring, though.

My wife thinks I'm nuts. I told her if she wouldn't let me ship the truck, she'd need to cover a ride with Sabine in an M5 Ring Taxi.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Llando88

Cool; useful info.

I still want to drive my 2500 on the Nurburgring, though.

My wife thinks I'm nuts. I told her if she wouldn't let me ship the truck, she'd need to cover a ride with Sabine in an M5 Ring Taxi.

I don't think your nutz! I would think if you get it over there, you likely could sell it for a profit, and then get an F250 when you get back! Win-win!

[Rich Jenkins]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

I don't think your nutz! I would think if you get it over there, you likely could sell it for a profit, and then get an F250 when you get back! Win-win!

Ha! Good point.

[Hans627]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

I don't think your nutz! I would think if you get it over there, you likely could sell it for a profit, and then get an F250 when you get back! Win-win!

Hey now! As a RAM owner that just plain hurts!

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I would not be to sure about the "sell it for a profit" part. They *do* like to collect taxes on things like cars and trucks no matter where you are in the world.

Bob

[Joe T]

I didn't catch what trailer you are buying so it could be small or large?

Pulling at elevation? Ecoboost Ford has turbos.

Passengers, weight in bed, heavy tounge weight? Ford is rated higher for payload generally.

If you can live with the extra length of a 6.5 ft bed you can get a heavy duty payload package in the F150 in a Lariat base... the payload goes way up around 2300-2500lbs.

You see the F150 in work fleets much more often for a reason.

I've had a few dodges and they are cheaper for a reason but if it meets your needs then there should be no problem.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by Joe T

I didn't catch what trailer you are buying so it could be small or large?

Pulling at elevation? Ecoboost Ford has turbos.

Passengers, weight in bed, heavy tounge weight? Ford is rated higher for payload generally.

If you can live with the extra length of a 6.5 ft bed you can get a heavy duty payload package in the F150 in a Lariat base... the payload goes way up around 2300-2500lbs.

You see the F150 in work fleets much more often for a reason.

I've had a few dodges and they are cheaper for a reason but if it meets your needs then there should be no problem.

Cheaper? Ford has a cheaper fleet discount, I have owned quite a few fords, I like the ram better....