2005 Tundra Doublecab TV

[glassman]

I live in Florida and have pulled a 25' Soverign for about 30,000 miles with a 4.7 Tundra. It felt ok in the East but when I went out West I felt like the Tundra was out of its league. Some of the down hills were pretty scary.

I upgraded to a 2008 GMC 2500 6.0 gas. The new model with the 6 speed transmission. We have been through the Rockies since and love the 2500. The diesel was just too expensive. If you do upgrade the GMC 2500 gas probably has some great incentives that would not be available on the diesel. The diesel would be overkill for a 25'. We usually average about 13 miles per gallon pulling with the GMC.

Just food for thought.

[hampstead38]

My current tow vehicle is a "little tow" 2004 Nissan Titan rated for around 7400 pounds... which is about the capacity of the Tundra the OP mentions. The Titan has a 5.6l engine which seems to pull just fine. Then again, the '67 Overlander weighs just over 4100 pounds dry.

My brother pulls a '26 "SOB" with a 4.7 Tundra. He has no complaints, and loves the Toyota for the comfort, designa and durability. It is, as Gene will attest, a heckuva truck.

Here's the thing about towing threads. No one knows how you drive. Some folks are cautious. They go slow. They pull over in bad weather. They don't push the truck hard. They watch the gauges. Other folks want to run as if they don't have a trailer behind them. I've seen people bombing down the freeway pulling a heavy trailer or huge boat at speeds that I would never try. Some folks are comfortable gearing down for a long pull. Others think a truck is an utter failure if you have to gear down or slow down for a hard hill.

Most motor vehicle accidents are not the cause of mechanical failure. It is normally operator error. There is nothing magical about a 3/4 ton truck that will keep you out of harm's way if a driver makes a bad decision. I think an exceptionally well built truck like the Tundra can be run at close to the listed "maximum," particularly if a driver is careful and patient.

Finally, confidence is a key element in driving and towing. Having faith in your vehicle and towing skills goes a long way. The best way to build confidence is through positive experiences. Good luck and enjoy driving what you decide to choose.

[BillTex]

You Folks are missing the point, as the OP stated initialy, payload is the issue. The TW, and associated gear/passengers/fuel will put him, or anyone, way over the rated capacity of a 1/2 ton truck. A vintage unit is much lighter then what he has purchased. An SOB? Who knows...no specs given...
A 1/2 ton is a 1/2 ton, is a 1/2 ton....none of them will get him the payload required for this job.
Period.

You've got buy-in from The "Beautifiul" one...go get the right (3/4 ton) truck.


Bill

[Steve97365]

I am in process of negotiating on a 2003 GMC Sierra SLE 6.6 Duramax and Allison transmission, one owner, excellent shape. It has 77K miles and drove very well on a short test drive. Beautiful wife even took the test drive with me, and she's still speaking to me now, because it's the pewter color that will match her eyes, I mean the AS.
I'm paying 5K difference, so I guess it's a pretty good deal. $19,500 for theirs and $14,500 for mine, and I owe a bit over $8K to cash out. I have opted not to sign anything until my trusted mechanic can go thru it and give it a clean bill of health. I don't need surprises at this point.

My Tundra has 34K miles and BRAND new Michelin tires. I wish I could swap them out, but the GMC takes 265/75/16 and the Tundra 265/70/16.
The dealer will swap out my brake controller, and I'm wondering if I should postpone my walk-thru and set up until I have the new TV. I'm scheduled to see the dealer Monday morning at 10:30.

So there you have it. You Canadians and all the others can now breathe easy, and once again all is right with the world.

[hampstead38]

Checking the brochure produced by Toyota, the 4x2 double cab Tundra has a "payload" (GWR - curb weight) of 1860 pounds. Since the curb weight includes all fluids, we don't need to double count the weight of a tank of gas or five quarts of oil.

Now, according to Toyota, "payload" equals "Cargo + optional equipment + passengers + tongue weight if towing." I don't see "driver" in that list. If the tongue weight is 860 pounds, the OP has another 1,000 pounds for cargo, optional equipment and passengers... before the Tundra exceeds its capacity.

Since Bill wants "specs," I hyperlinked the Toyota brochure... but according to my pencil, the OP's tow vehicle is not "way over the capacity" of the Tundra, at least not according to the manufacturer.

The trailer itself weighs 5060 dry. This is well under the 7,000 lb towing capacity listed by Toyota. I'm not sure where the OP pulled 7300 because none of the double cabs listed seem to have that capacity. And yes, my vintage weighs about 1,000 lbs less. While I would keep my 5.6l Titan over an older 4.7l Tundra for the pulling power, I would be the first to admit the 5.7l Tunda is better built rig than the Titan. If we don't go vintage, a Tundra is on my short list for pulling the Overlander.

The GMC Steve is looking at will pull TWO of his Airstreams... so I think he'll be on the safe side.... way on the safe. side.

[Gene]

Steve, some tires of similar sizes can be swapped. The difference in the aspect ratio is not that much (although it will affect the odometer) and maybe you could check with a trusted tire dealer for an opinion. Aspect ratio concerns the outer diameter of the tire or the sidewall height. The higher the number, the higher the tire. Using the Tundra tires would slightly lower the GMC. The most critical number is the last one—it reflects the wheel size and must always be identical. The first number is width of the tread in mm. I'm no expert, so check with someone, but you maybe able to keep those new Michelins.

I'm glad you're finding a truck that feels good to you and I can understand not wanting to put out a lot of money for a 2nd generation Tundra.

Gene

[Steve97365]

I guess I had my numbers wrong. The AS GVWR is 7000 and the TV tow rating is 7000 pounds. Sounds like a match made in heaven until I read the advice of those who had been there, done that, have the tee shirt.

I agree that the Tundra would probably pull the weight OK, but at the expense of lousy gas mileage and lots of hard wear and tear on the TV, not to mention over-extending the axle weight ratings by quite a bunch.

I'd much rather be safe than sorry, and err on the side of caution. I've rarely if ever heard someone say that they were sorry they had TOO MUCH tow vehicle, but post after post have talked about how happy they were after they moved up to the proper TV, or moved down the size of their AS(not an option in my case, cause the deal is done.)

Thanks for all your help. You're the greatest. Steve(OP)

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by Steve97365

I guess I had my numbers wrong. The AS GVWR is 7000 and the TV tow rating is 7000 pounds. Sounds like a match made in heaven until I read the advice of those who had been there, done that, have the tee shirt.

I agree that the Tundra would probably pull the weight OK, but at the expense of lousy gas mileage and lots of hard wear and tear on the TV, not to mention over-extending the axle weight ratings by quite a bunch.

I'd much rather be safe than sorry, and err on the side of caution. I've rarely if ever heard someone say that they were sorry they had TOO MUCH tow vehicle, but post after post have talked about how happy they were after they moved up to the proper TV, or moved down the size of their AS(not an option in my case, cause the deal is done.)
Thanks for all your help. You're the greatest. Steve(OP)

Congrats...you haved saved yourself a years worth of heartache and white Knuckle rides.
I have no doubt that being so seriously undergunned with your TV would have had you questioning the whole AS thing after a trip or two (maybe even on the ride home?)....
Towing with too little truck, is stressful, tiring, and as Brian MT likes to say;"is the number one cause of very expensive yard art".
Drop the hitch on the ball, set the cruise, have a nice cup of coffee, and your Beautiful Wife by your side and let the miles go by...

See you down the road.

Bill

BTW, hard to imagine a better TV than the DA you are looking at.

[hampstead38]

Steve, it's your nickel. At the end of day, any advice (including mine) is worth generally what you paid for it.

I notice that you didn't specify whether the GM was a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton. There are a number of threads about the risks of towing a relatively light trailer with a 1-ton rig. The stiff suspension of a 1-ton, when combined with a WD hitch, can transmit vibration and shock to the coach causing problems. Andy from Inland RV has some firsthand experience with this. You can PM him about popped rivets and frame damage. Hopefully, the GM you are considering is a 2500, 3/4 ton.

Unlike Bill, I don't have psychic powers. I don't know if you are going to enjoy the GMC diesel. Our family businesses have owned fleet trucks for decades. We run diesel because our trucks carry slip tanks to fuel heavy equipment. Diesels are great if you put mega-miles on your truck or if you need the torque. They also can be fiendishly expensive to repair. For us, running 40,000+ miles a year on unpaved roads carrying heavy weight, diesels generally make sense. The only person who is going to know if you are happy in a year or two is you. Personally, I wish you the best of luck.

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

Steve, it's your nickel. At the end of day, any advice (including mine) is worth generally what you paid for it.

I notice that you didn't specify whether the GM was a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton. There are a number of threads about the risks of towing a relatively light trailer with a 1-ton rig. The stiff suspension of a 1-ton, when combined with a WD hitch, can transmit vibration and shock to the coach causing problems. Andy from Inland RV has some firsthand experience with this. You can PM him about popped rivets and frame damage. Hopefully, the GM you are considering is a 2500, 3/4 ton.

Unlike Bill, I don't have psychic powers. I don't know if you are going to enjoy the GMC diesel. Our family businesses have owned fleet trucks for decades. We run diesel because our trucks carry slip tanks to fuel heavy equipment. Diesels are great if you put mega-miles on your truck or if you need the torque. They also can be fiendishly expensive to repair. For us, running 40,000+ miles a year on unpaved roads carrying heavy weight, diesels generally make sense. The only person who is going to know if you are happy in a year or two is you. Personally, I wish you the best of luck.

The only difference between a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton, particularly in the GM lineup, is the overload spring, which does NOT come into contact untill you NEED it, so no difference in ride there(it is not likely the overload would come into contact towing an AS, unless you have your anvil collection along for the ride). All other components, brakes, axle, etc are identical. Dodge/Ford do have some other differences depending on model year.

While Bill is not psychic, he does have quite a bit of experience; gas, deezul, 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, etc. His 20 yr old AS has been towed it's entire life (except for 2 trips as noted in link above) by 3/4 ton vehicles. I have yet to find a loose rivet, frame damage etc. This theory of proper tow vehicles damaging trailers ASSumes that your AS has no suspension. Last time I crawled under mine, it did in fact, have (surprise!) suspension components.

The OP stated weights, and limits of his TV. I don't care if the TV is made in Tokyo or Crypton. The numbers do not lie. His stated weights require a 3/4 ton TV. I would NOT call 7000# relatively light.

There are also many posts here about the various advantages of towing with diesels. It has been my experience that it cost less to run a diesel than gassers I have owned in the past. Not to mention the pleasure of towing with diesel, that is hard to quantify! Others (except maybe TimeMachine who had a bad experience with a 6.0l Ford) would agree.
Here is another good post; http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...hip-39826.html

You have chosen wisely.
Enjoy your new truck and AS.

Bill

[hampstead38]

If you read the original post, the dry weight of the trailer is just over 5,000 pounds... not 7,000 pounds. The OP stated the towing capacity of the Tundra was 7300 pounds, but it is more likely 7,000 pounds.

I have already walked through the math using the data published by Toyota. Even if you add a thousand pound pounds of "load" to the dry trailer, you are still within the Tundra's capacity. And there is plenty of capacity available for passengers and cargo in the TV itself... that is if you want to believe the manufacturer.

The fact of the matter is that the Tundra is built "heavy" for a half-ton truck. Some of its components are superior to those found on domestic 3/4 trucks. I'm not a huge fan of the older 4.7l engine, but the newer Tundras with the 5.7l are more than capable of pulling a trailer with a 5,000 pound dry weight. If the OP wants to buy a heavier tow vehicle, fine... but there's no evidence to support your contention the Tundra would be "way" beyond its capacity, aside from personal opinion.

As for trailer damage, I'll defer to a guy like Andy who repairs Airstreams for a living. My observation is based on comments like Andy's where issues like one-ton trucks and improperly sized/fitted torsion bars have caused damage to the coach. Personally, Bill, I think proper set up of the hitch is as important as the tow vehicle.

When a guy comes to the forum looking for advice, I hope we can do a bit better than "half ton = bad; three quarter ton = good." I think its more helpful to explain concepts like GCWR, to point out manufacturer's data, to talk about things like proper hitch set up and quality trailer brakes. Maybe the OP will love his new TV... and maybe keeping the old Tundra would have worked out just fine. The simple fact is that the 2005 Tundra double cab with 4.7l engine is capable of towing an Airstream with a 5,060 dry weight without exceeding any published weight rating. If you disagree, Bill, show us the math.

[Gene]

Bill, I finally got to read your story about the 1/2 ton Suburban. You do not say what year the Suburban was, but say "some years back" which could be '90's or older. I don't know how much you had loaded into that SUV, although SUV's generally have less payload than a pickup. You went from a 1/2 ton SUV to a 3/4 ton pickup, not exactly a fair comparison. The pickup was a brand new one in '06 compared to an old SUV.

You had a bad experience with the Suburban and your Excella and from one anecdotal situation you generalize to all 1/2 ton trucks and SUV's of any year.

Your old Suburban was apparently way underpowered. You say: "What is this spongy, pushed around, engine whining, transmission shifting feeling I am experiencing?" I have never had any such experience with my 395 HP, 401 # torque gas engine. Most of the time I am at 2,000-2,300 rpm and the 6 speed transmission works fine. I expect on an older Suburban you had a 4 speed. I only have 19,000 miles on the truck, but no maintenance, no recalls, nothing is broken. Only had to change the oil and grease it. Yes, the oil is very difficult to change and I don't like the OEM tires, but the Tundra performs flawlessly. In my experience Toyotas are extremely reliable and take whatever you throw at them. The Tundra was even made and designed in Texas.

I'm glad your pickup works for you. Mine works for me and I do not tow with white knuckles.

Gene

[moosetags]

Late model 25' Airstreams go closer to 6000# empty. By the time you fill the LP tanks, add a WDAS hitch system, add some water in the white tank, put some food in the refer, some stuff in the pantry. If you are very frugal, your looking at 7000# if you really want to use the trailer for camping.

The only way that you will be pulling a 5000# 25' late model Airstream is to strip out the appliances and cabinet doors.

Brian

[hampstead38]

According to Airstream, the 2006 '25 Safari A/B has a dry weight of 5065 pounds and a GVWR of 7000 pounds. The cabinet doors and appliances are included in the 5065 weight. If someone loads the Safari to over 7,000, it would exceed the towing capacity of the Tundra and the weight rating coach as established by Airstream.

When it comes to personal experience, Gene is actually towing a 2008 Safari FB SE with a Toyota Tundra. If we're going to ignore published data like Airstream weights and Toyota towing manuals and pay attention to personal experiences... why not listen to the guy actually towing an Airstream very similar to the one purchased by the OP?

[moosetags]

My 2005 Safari 25FB weighs out at 7420# on a real truck scale (weigh was done on 040909). I am not carrying my anvil collection. This is loaded for real every day camping use on the road. We have food in the refrigerator and pillows on the bed. This is actual weight, not some pie-in-the-sky estimate. I have pulled this Airstream loaded this way for over 40,000 miles in all terrain and conditions.

Anyone who thinks that they will be towing a 5000# late model 25' Airstream down the road for use as a camper is fantasizing.

Brian

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by Steve97365

My Tundra has 34K miles and BRAND new Michelin tires. I wish I could swap them out, but the GMC takes 265/75/16 and the Tundra 265/70/16.

Steve
IMHO, If the Michelin's on the Tundra are the LTX series load range E, swap them for load not size. You can have the ECM re-programed for any difference in tire height. Been there, done that. The LTX is a great riding/waring tire!!

Stream Safe

BC

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by moosetags

My 2005 Safari 25FB weighs out at 7420# on a real truck scale (weigh was done on 040909). I am not carrying my anvil collection. This is loaded for real every day camping use on the road. We have food in the refrigerator and pillows on the bed. This is actual weight, not some pie-in-the-sky estimate. I have pulled this Airstream loaded this way for over 40,000 miles in all terrain and conditions.

Anyone who thinks that they will be towing a 5000# late model 25' Airstream down the road for use as a camper is fantasizing.

Brian

Couldn't have said it better.....my unit, if totally empty (no cargo, no water, food, bedding, clothes, nothing, nada, zip--- just the unit as it was built) is about 5400lbs! ....and it's a 25er too!

[hampstead38]

"Anyone who thinks that they will be towing a 5000# late model 25' Airstream down the road for use as a camper is fantasizing."

Did some someone saying that a loaded 25' Safari weighs 5000 pounds? If so, I missed it. By the way, if you are running your Safari at nearly 7,500 pounds, Brian, I believe you are exceeding the GVWR of the coach. In my humble opinion, this is not a good practice no matter what tow vehicle you are using.

Let's walk through the numbers one more time with a 25' Safari SE loaded at its maximum GVWR of 7300.

2009 Tundra 4x2 regular cab 5.7l V8 curb weight = 5010 pounds
Standard payload capacity = 1990 pounds
Tundra GVWR = 7000 pounds
Tundra GCWR = 16000 pounds
Maximum loaded Safari = 7300 pounds.
Maximum loaded Tundra = 7000 pounds

In this scenario, the trailer is loaded to capacity, the truck is loaded to capacity and the combination is 1700 pounds under the GCWR. The only way to exceed the GCWR with a 25' Safari is to overload the trailer or overload the truck. Even if you assume a hitch weight of 1,000 pounds, the Tundra still has nearly a thousand pounds of payload capacity. Once again, and according to Toyota, "payload" does not include fuel, fluids or driver. Is it possible to need more than 1,000 pounds of "stuff" in the truck to go camping... sure. It just depends on what you want to take camping. But to say that a Toyota Tundra cannot safely tow a fully loaded Safari 25 is simply not supported by an objective consideration of the manufacturer's ratings.

Earlier on this thread Gene said, "I've towed a 25' FB more than 9,000 miles with a 2nd generation Tundra with no problems, including over the Coast Range in Oregon, the Rockies and have passed cars on 11,000' passes in Colorado." I'm not a Toyota Tundra salesman, but I've owned Toyotas (including a truck) and have been impressed by the durability. I've linked this before, but it's worth doing again. To dismiss the Tundra out of hand as a mere "half ton" does not due justice to the truck. In closing, from Edmunds:

"It comes down to utility, though, and the 1st-place 2007 Toyota Tundra simply offers more of it. No matter what we threw at it, the Tundra never blinked. It's almost as though Toyota built a 3/4-ton truck and honed it for half-ton duty, such is its unburstable nature. You pay for the Toyota's proficiency with a stiffer ride than the Silverado, but the payoff is the most capable half-ton truck on the market."

[Silvertwinkie]

The trailer as Brain is describing is 7450 loaded....7300 can be on the axles while 800lbs of the 7450 loaded weight is transferred to the tow vehicle. He is as far as I can tell not overloaded. At the high water mark, but not over.

To each their own...you like the Tundra, great? I'm still unimpressed with it's 1/2 chassis which is why I'm sticking domestic. The imports may have the domestics beat hands down in the car market, but in the truck market, what's left of it in it's entirety today, the domestics still own the truck market IMHO. Will they forever? I doubt it, particularly when Toyota and Nissan actually build a 3/4 ton truck. I think then the tides will turn. If folks recall the whole blow out of the Titan, it had "X" tow rating, and if you got the big tow package, it increased to some high rating and the big tow package was something like a trans temp indicator, and a hopped up 1/2 ton differential-- which wasn't even a semi-floater if I recall, similar to the GM 8 bolt.

In the end, Steve made a decision and I think he made the right one FWIW.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/l...ommitment.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjTbiYo3x0

[Silvertwinkie]

Forgot this one:

YouTube - Ford F150 vs Toyota Tundra - Frame Strength