Electric Bill

[FFEJANDIRAB]

Hi folks,

I am curious if anyone knows the average kWh per month for a 30' airstream, 2 electric heaters, in a mild colorado winter averaging 30 degrees fahrenheit? I am curious if the city electric is messed up. This month my usage was at 1719 kWh.
Maybe using propane heat as the primary heat would be more cost efficient?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks!

[FFEJANDIRAB]

Yes, the airstream is professionally skirted

[Kevin245]

What are you paying per kWh and what is the cost of LPG in your area?

[FFEJANDIRAB]

$.046 and cost of propane is about $80 for a $100 gallon tank

[switz]

The LED lights are not the power hog. The electric water heater and using the refrigerator on AC power consumes considerable electricity. You need to tell us the size in watts of the electric heaters as well. At that low temperature, I would hazard they were on most of the time. Does the trailer have only a convection/microwave oven or a propane oven as well? Is the microwave or convection/microwave used a lot? (Those draw a lot of AC power when operating)

You have a 30,000 BTU furnace, that is the input energy. I doubt that these small furnaces are over 80% efficient. There should be a document in the tailer documentation set that gives specific fuel consumption per hour.

This information is necessary to see if the number of KW used is rational.

[Gearheart]

Electric heat is the most expensive energy going. My old house had electric heat and my power bill was $800/month and that was 25 years ago. My gas bill now is around 150/month

[idroba]

Propane has about 91,000 btu per gal. Efficiency of burning it in the furnace and water heater would probably never exceed 70%. So a gal of propane would give you a usable heat of .7 x 91,000 = 63,700 Btu.

To put things on an equal basis, usually we calculate the cost per therm of usable energy. A therm is 100,000 btu.

So to produce 100,000 btu of propane heat you would need 100000/63700 = 1.57 gal of propane.

Since electric resistance heat is 100% efficient in most cases and each kWh of electricity produces 3410 btu, to produce 100,000 btu of heat electrically you would need 100,000/3410 = 29.3 kw of power.

Using your numbers for fuel cost then, (and they sound very low to me) your propane is 80 cents a gal and your electric rate is 0.46 cents a kWh.

So, the cost of propane per therm would be 1.57 gal x 80 cents a gal = $ 1.25 a therm.

The cost of electricity per therm would be 29.3 x .046 = $1.34 a therm

If your cost numbers are correct (and again, they sound low to me) the two fuels cost about the same per usable amount of heat delivered.

[idroba]

PS: Anyone can put their own costs per gal of propane and kWh of electricity in the above calculations and compare their own data.

[slowmover]

Use the furnace and a dehumidifier to maintain the underlying temp & humidity. Use a DYSON Hot Cool in the area where you sit or sleep at the time appropriate to fine tune temps.

Do not tax TT electrical system with heaters.

[Foiled Again]

"International is the key word here. Translate "Bare Aluminum Interior". The insulating benefit of the Flying Cloud's entry level "mouse fur" or the vinyl wall covering on the Classics seems to be minimal, BUT every bit helps - The heavy drapes on the Classic help a lot more too!

One other thing to do. Turn of the lights, light a candle and walk around the inside of your Airstream - watch the flickering. You WANT to have some air exchange to control the humidity and keep you in oxygen, but you may have some really bad cold spots and heat leaks. Hold your candle in front of the light switch for your scare light and your porch light. I've had 3 Airstreams and they all have little jets of icy cold air blowing in. Pretty easy to seal up with a super thin piece of adhesive backed cork cut to the size of the switch plate. Ever open a bathroom cabinet and think you're going to freeze your ass - well that's deliberate - the plumbing is being exposed to the heated interior while sadly also exposing the bath to a lot of cold air. I keep my shower vent open ALMOST all of the time. Tonight we had a cold front come in with 40 mph winds - I closed that sucker up. Skylights and Fantastic fans - another Brrrrr! point, get Prodex or any other kind of cover for them. Check around your DOOR - you may have a windstorm working away there. Correctly adjusting the door and/or the latch can get rid of 80% of the problem Stove vent? needs to be open to cook but may be blowing cold air in 100% of the time. A stretchy pot cover when you're not using the stove top could do wonders.

I've got the roll up shades on my windows - and just broke down and bought a roll of Prodex to make winter insulated shades for SOME of them (gotta get some sun inside even during the winter - ever hear of SAD? Seasonal Affective Disorder - or winter blues - caused by lack of full spectrum light (you can buy full spectrum fluorescent lights to help, but get some natural light and thermal gain if you can. I'm using six tiny clear plastic Command hooks on each window that I'm covering. I'll just cut the prodex slightly larger than the window, use a circle punch to cut the holes for the Command hooks at the top of the window, half way down the curve, and at the bottom corners. I'll also make a slit for the window operators to fit through, but will cover the slots where the operators move up and down. I'm planning to cover all the windows on the north side of the Airstream (2) and cover all the wrap arounds on both ends... mostly those will be held in place by the curtains with a bit of assist from a command hook (or just the adhesive strip, if needed. The skylight in the living room and the back fan will also be covered by a prodex cover, the bedroom fan will be left uncovered so that dawn's early light will awaken me.

I really bought the prodex to use on the hatch - which Is a BIG cold door on the Eddie Bauer! But like all projects, it seems to be taking on a life of it's own. Don't know If I'll have room to store all of this stuff through the summer or whether I'll have to buy new every year. But darn I hate winter.

Going to Key West might cost more, but it doth have it's appeal!

Paula

[A W Warn]

I'm paying $.014/kwh, using an average of ~450 khw per month.
I'm still working on my first 40 lb of propane this season. I filled up @ ~$1.00 per pound last summer.
I'm in central Florida Nov thru April, in my 34' Excella.

I use a "Little Big Heat" set on low with the furnace set on 69F. Most of the heat comes from electric, but the furnace will cycle when needed.

Hot water is on electric 24/7 to maintain water temperature, but we flip the gas switch when we get in the shower so we both have adequate hot water.

The fridge stays on electric unless we are towing.

add edit:
In winter our lows at night are generally in the mid to upper 40's with average highs around 70F. Those averages will be about 10-15 higher in April.

[Lets travel]

Originally Posted by idroba

Propane has about 91,000 btu per gal. Efficiency of burning it in the furnace and water heater would probably never exceed 70%. So a gal of propane would give you a usable heat of .7 x 91,000 = 63,700 Btu.

To put things on an equal basis, usually we calculate the cost per therm of usable energy. A therm is 100,000 btu.

So to produce 100,000 btu of propane heat you would need 100000/63700 = 1.57 gal of propane.

Since electric resistance heat is 100% efficient in most cases and each kWh of electricity produces 3410 btu, to produce 100,000 btu of heat electrically you would need 100,000/3410 = 29.3 kw of power.

Using your numbers for fuel cost then, (and they sound very low to me) your propane is 80 cents a gal and your electric rate is 0.46 cents a kWh.

So, the cost of propane per therm would be 1.57 gal x 80 cents a gal = $ 1.25 a therm.

The cost of electricity per therm would be 29.3 x .046 = $1.34 a therm

If your cost numbers are correct (and again, they sound low to me) the two fuels cost about the same per usable amount of heat delivered.

You must of really thought this out!

[slowmover]

The problem is in heat distribution if one wants to compare costs. An electric heater will need the AC fan to warm the trailer evenly. The cost is therefore higher.

As only the furnace can keep the tanks above freezing, and is a more robust system, it is to be favored. Handling humidity with an electric device does not add substantially once humidity is lowered.

Interior storm windows and exterior skirting are the additions to study per extended cold weather use.

[handn]

It doesn't surprise me that you have a big electric bill. Airstreams are notoriously poorly insulated.
We wintered in Golden, Colorado in a motorhome and had huge energy bills.
Your propane furnace wastes a lot of energy. Just stand outside near the vent when it is running. Most of the heat goes away.
A catalytic heater is 100 efficient. We installed one because we boondock a lot. We don't run it at night, but it is great for taking the chill off quickly on a cold morning.
Options for saving energy: turn heaters way down or off when the sun is shining. The sun will heat your poorly insulated trailer up even on a cold day. Run one heater at night in the sleeping area. Turn the temp down. At night, we keep our trailer about 60. We are running electric only with the furnace set low as a backup. Yes, it is cold but we are warm in sleeping bags.
I don't know where you are buying propane, but the last time I filled my tanks, it was over $3.00 per gallon.
If I were full timing it, I would consider parking the trailer in the winter (in cold states) and renting an apartment. Between campground rent in a nice campground and sky high utilities, you may be better off.

[Msmoto]

Well, I was toasty with the propane over night, but would make at least one comment regarding heating an AS.
AirstreamREV_2009_Int_27FB_Snow_04.2010-4 by Fantinesvoice.com, on Flickr

The single pane windows.... maybe using a plastic film over the screen to create a thermal zone. Ceiling vents, A/C, etc. can be insulated, possibly covering the outside units can reduce heat loss.

I can imagine even putting a cover on the entire trailer roof so as to create a dead air zone...like a rain cover on a tent. Doing something to stop any airflow under the trailer may be helpful as well, the ground can be a source of above freezing temps.

The secret, IMO, of heating bills being reduced is to lower the energy losses. Almost anything done in this theme will reap great rewards.

Or, move down to my land near El Moro.....LOL

[idroba]

Originally Posted by Lets travel

You must of really thought this out!

I am an engineer by background. I used to teach courses in energy costs and management. What I outlined is the standard way to compare energy fuel costs.

The OP wanted to know which was more expensive, propane or electricity to heat with. Numbers and factual data, not opinions, are the only way to answer the question.

The same cost per Therm system can be used to compare any fuel, Oil, Natural Gas, Pellet fuel, Propane, Electricity, and so on.

In my own home I used this exact same system to find that when Propane went up to over $2.50 a gal that it was cheaper to use electricity to heat my house, hot water, and so on with than stay with Propane. With my propane costs and electric costs, electricity is the current winner. But each location in the country is different. What is true in Idaho will be different in CO, TX or any other location. You cannot generalize energy costs. When I set up my own home for Propane fuel, it was the best cost. Now electricity is cheaper.

Remember the old Dragnet series from the '50s? Just the facts .... was the tag line Joe Friday used when asking questions.

[Panama Red]

Originally Posted by idroba

The OP wanted to know which was more expensive, propane or electricity to heat with. Numbers and factual data, not opinions, are the only way to answer the question.

I prefer conjecture and opinion polls... And loud arguments! The louder you yell, the righter you are. And, if you type in all caps, it really carries some authority...

I'm right on this, don't try pulling all that engineering mumbo jumbo on me.

-Red, nothing to add really, but I don't let that stop me...

[idroba]

I know you are teasing me Red... grin. We can have fun here too.

[switz]

Probably the cheapest source of energy would be to park over a geo-thermal vent and let the steam wrap the trailer in a cocoon of warm moist air.

However, the moisture running down the inside walls might cause a flooring issue down the road.

[scamp]

If you have a 1500 watt electric heater running 24 hours a day that would be 36 kWh just for that one heater per day so per month that would be 1116 kwh . That's more then double what my family uses per month total electricity for the four of us in our 1600square foot (plus another 1600 for basement )bungalow in canada with a electric hot water heater,I'm heating with wood,our monthly usage is around 450kwh per month . Yes aluminum dissipate heat about four times faster then steel so a airstream is very hard to heat. A.c , electric heat ,hot water electric. Heater ,convection microwave when using the convection mode ,are the big electrical loads ,

Don