Help - Winter camping freeze problem

[idroba]

The FC 20' has completely exposed dump valves on both the black and gray side. I have a FC 20, so I know. The gray line comes out of the heated tank area, and runs about 10 inches of completely exposed 1.5" line before it comes to the valve so it is very vulnerable to freezing. The black valve and pipe is also exposed in the same way. The only way to keep them from freezing would be to build a small heated box around them, and that would also be a way to thaw them. Or, an electric heater of fair capacity directed right to them also could work.

This is one of Airstream's stupid designs, have tank heaters but totally expose the lines from the tank to the dump valves as if somehow they would magically stay above freezing and work when needed.

One of the issues I have with Airstream these days is they design them, build them, but no one at the factory ever seems to use them in real world situations. There is no "this is stupid" feedback to the system so they go on producing the same problem over and over and over.

I want to be the vice president in charge of trying out Airstreams, listening to feedback from users, and having the clout to change designs based on user experiences. Then Airstream would be a truly great RV.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by idroba

The FC 20' has completely exposed dump valves on both the black and gray side. I have a FC 20, so I know. The gray line comes out of the heated tank area, and runs about 10 inches of completely exposed 1.5" line before it comes to the valve so it is very vulnerable to freezing. The black valve and pipe is also exposed in the same way. The only way to keep them from freezing would be to build a small heated box around them, and that would also be a way to thaw them. Or, an electric heater of fair capacity directed right to them also could work.

This is one of Airstream's stupid designs, have tank heaters but totally expose the lines from the tank to the dump valves as if somehow they would magically stay above freezing and work when needed.

This subject came up at the Canopener rally just yesterday, but in regard to Airstream Interstates, which have tank heaters, but no heater for the macerator pump. Kind of difficult to dump your (heated) tanks when the macerator is frozen.

The solution would be some heat tape wrapped around the pump (or in your case the valves) and wire it in to the tank heaters, so when the heaters come on, so does the heat tape.

Here's one source I found for 12vDC heat tape…
12 Volt Heat Cable at OEMHeaters.com

[idroba]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

This subject came up at the Canopener rally just yesterday, but in regard to Airstream Interstates, which have tank heaters, but no heater for the macerator pump. Kind of difficult to dump your (heated) tanks when the macerator is frozen.

The solution would be some heat tape wrapped around the pump (or in your case the valves) and wire it in to the tank heaters, so when the heaters come on, so does the heat tape.

Here's one source I found for 12vDC heat tape…
12 Volt Heat Cable at OEMHeaters.com

Thanks, I have not seen any 12 volt heat tape, good to know a source.

[richarus]

Originally Posted by idroba

The FC 20' has completely exposed dump valves on both the black and gray side. I have a FC 20, so I know. The gray line comes out of the heated tank area, and runs about 10 inches of completely exposed 1.5" line before it comes to the valve so it is very vulnerable to freezing. The black valve and pipe is also exposed in the same way. The only way to keep them from freezing would be to build a small heated box around them, and that would also be a way to thaw them. Or, an electric heater of fair capacity directed right to them also could work.

This is one of Airstream's stupid designs, have tank heaters but totally expose the lines from the tank to the dump valves as if somehow they would magically stay above freezing and work when needed.

One of the issues I have with Airstream these days is they design them, build them, but no one at the factory ever seems to use them in real world situations. There is no "this is stupid" feedback to the system so they go on producing the same problem over and over and over.

I want to be the vice president in charge of trying out Airstreams, listening to feedback from users, and having the clout to change designs based on user experiences. Then Airstream would be a truly great RV.

I agree that this is a design flaw for the 20' FC. Tank heaters and inside plumbing seem to be protected very well based on the experience I had the last few days. Last night, it got down to 10 degrees and everything is working perfectly except the exposed plumbing between the tanks and the dump valves. I am certain that there is probably solid ice in these pipes and I am just hoping that nothing breaks or cracks from the expansion. I plan on providing feedback to Airstream about my dissatisfaction with this. I would think that Airstream would be more concerned about maintaining reputation and brand.

I greatly appreciate all the feedback about this issue.

[mefly2]

It sounds like you have it sorted out for now.
Put a large cardboard box with areas cut out for your dump valves / exposed plastic pipe. Put a light bulb into the box and it should allow thawing upwards and keep everything from freezing up - at least it does for us ...until the temps hit well below zero actual.
When all is free flowing, dump 5 gal out at a time into a bucket and take inside to your commode to flush. I would not want to risk the entire tank freezing up ... the expansion on thawing often cracks things ...

[JConsroe]

Wrap an electric blanket around your dump tubes and valves. Safe and easy

[Tim A.]

In thread I mentioned above, I wrote:
I have put 12V heating pads from Ultraheat ( UltraHeat, Inc. - Tank Heaters ) on the exposed drain pipes and valves on our 2002 19' Bambi. On their website, you will find the valve heaters under "Elbow" heaters. We often stay where it gets really cold at night and the heaters have been most useful. They draw a fair amount of current and we only use them when hooked up to shore power. If the pipes and valves freeze, the heating pads will eventually thaw them out. Our experience has been that the valves are what freeze up first. The heaters for those we have on a separate switch."

The heaters really do work.

Tim

[NavyCorpsman]

Shacksman's idea plus rock salt / concentrated salt solution to prevent re freeze. A hair dryer on low left in a safe position might help free up the valves too. I like the idea of washer fluid (Methanol / H20) in the grey and black tanks. I'd figure at least two gallons in each tank would work well if the temps are going to dwell below 25 degrees F. Good luck.

[ssopko]

We had had the same problem last January when traveling route 10 from New Mexico to Florida. When we stopped for the night we made sure we stopped at a place that had hook ups and placed a space heater under each the tank, at the valve location as soon as we stopped for the night and did not remove it until we broke camp in the morning. Temps were 10 to 15 degrees at night, nary a frozen valve did we have.

[J. Morgan]

A halogen shop light works pretty well at thawing frozen pipes/valves.

Common sense is required in their use though.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

[EarlM]

Does the new 2015 Classic have electric tank heaters?

Thanks

Earl

[streamer_a]

If cold enough (<10) leaving the dump valves open is the only viable option aside from skirting. 1 hour with a hairdryer will get things moving. Antifreeze won't help.

[moxie t. moto]

tried alcohol? [not the drinking kind]

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by streamer_a

Antifreeze won't help.

The main reason antifreeze won't help is because it's not effective if diluted even by half. A 50% solution of RV antifreeze and water will freeze. On the other hand, depending on the concentration, a mixture or automotive antifreeze (ethylene glycol) and water will not freeze. Even two-to-one mixture of water and auto antifreeze will not freeze above 0°F, and a one-to-one mixture will not freeze above -40°F.

Since neither you nor your pets will ever drink from your gray or black tanks, there is no particular reason why you can't use auto antifreeze in them. Just make sure you've thoroughly rinsed your black tank before boondocking somewhere next season that lets you discharge your gray tank onto the ground.

[rmkrum]

Automotive antifreeze is not a good thing for dump stations, septic tanks or municipal sewer systems. It's highly toxic to wildlife and pets. Not a good idea to use where it can get into the environment or be consumed by animals.

Better to go with totally dry tanks, or run tank heaters if you have them.

And no, I'm not a tree hugger--automotive antifreeze needs to be recycled safely, not dumped..


Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Automotive antifreeze is not a good thing for dump stations, septic tanks or municipal sewer systems. It's highly toxic to wildlife and pets. Not a good idea to use where it can get into the environment or be consumed by animals.

Oh well. Sometimes even I offer bad advice.

More often than I'd prefer, in fact!

Everybody ignore my previous post, please.

[Ray Eklund]

Lots of interesting advice.

If you can Dry Camp during the Winter months, you can avoid the grey, black and fresh water freezing. Not just freezing, but freezing up solid. Going to take more than back flushing hot water up the... gazoo. Is someone standing on a ladder and adding the hot water, as it will have to flow UP to do any good. When it is open... someone had better be quick to control the flow. I would like to make the VIDEO of this fiasco in the making!

Travel Trailers are really, as several have said, Spring, Summer and Fall living quarters. We delayed our heading south for three additional days, just because the temperatures overnight were going to present trouble, snow, ice, even with empty tanks and water lines.

My recommendation is make notes as to your freezing problems. This Spring, go to an experienced house trailer business and purchase what you need to wrap and protect vulnerable exposed tanks, pipes and lines. This is if you are plugged into 120volt system. While traveling... you have to travel DRY. It is inconvenient. We carry a 5 gallon jug of water in the back of the covered pickup bed, if we need fresh water.

Imagine when the grey/black water "ice berg" begins to melt on the edges and begins to slam into the sides on each turn you make on the trip. Not a good thought for the possible damage and a puncture to the plastic liners.

Maybe less than 10% of Airstream and travel trailer owners venture out into the colder areas during the Winter months traveling WET. Hunters do it, but a large canvas tent with a wood burning stove. Travel trailers ARE an ice chest on wheels! Then the trailer becomes a HUMID ice chest on wheels. Once you think you have beaten the heating the interior, consider ventilating the interior at the same time. Another important situation.

IF you are at an RV Park, camp DRY and use the camp's facilities. Just heating the interior and venting it properly will be tough enough for the below freezing days and real nasty evenings. Been there, done that. Learned my lessons after a Wyoming April and once in July! I was under the belief that my Airstream was an ALL SEASON trailer, which it can be with a comprehensive make over.

Winter travel CAN be improved but not at a level you would want from your Airstream. Once you understand the trailer's limitations, you can find a comfort zone that makes some improvement in conditions.

My comfort level:

When the Canada Geese are flying SOUTH... follow them. Do NOT stop in Colorado where they seem to winter full time among the many lakes on the Front Range. The geese are prepared to stay, your Airstream is not.

Winter in the South and as things begin to warm up... follow the geese back North. They have been doing this since the last Ice Age.

Or... best. Follow an Alaskan or Canadian license plate and stop when they do! Then enjoy a Snowbird Winter the right way.

Good luck. You can do it. Just be prepared next Winter.