Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-12-2008, 07:12 PM   #29
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Scenario

Lets open a scene, where the tow vehicle and trailer must make a panic stop.

Lets now have 2 conditions that could be faced.

1. When I hit the brakes for a panic stop, one magnet was shorted or partially shorted, blew the fuse, so I had no trailer brakes, causing me to rear end something. Insurance company. where are you? Amulance, where are you?

2. When I hit the brakes for a panic stop, one magnet was shorted or partially shorted, there was no fuse or circuit breaker in the system, so I still had adequate trailer brakes, but the brake wiring started to smoke, but I still stopped short of an accident.

The wiring stopped smoking because the excess current was quickly removed.

I got out of the stopped rig, dusted myself off, and said, "thank goodness" I didn't hit anything or anyone. Insurance company, I don't need you this time.

Now, in retrospect, because I didn't properly maintain the trailer brake system, I must "NOW" do that, along with replacing a couple of wires and maybe a controller.

Now folks, given those two situations, which is worse???

Number 1, or number 2?

There is no, if's and's or buts, because it could be one or the other of the above two situations.

Would you prefer to be involved with # 1 or # 2, and why?

This should really make people think, and hopefully, make a great thread.

Andy
__________________

__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 09:20 PM   #30
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,268
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
The best way to avoid the issue, is to have that major brake job done, every 10,000 miles.

That usually saves a lot of worry and headaches, plus assures maximum braking reliability.

Andy
Hi, Andy. Do you really mean to have a major brake service / inspection done every 10,000 miles? Not a major brake job; Shoes, magnets, drums, springs, and / or backing plate replacement. If someone wears out their trailer brakes in 10,000 miles, they must be driveing with their foot on the brake pedal or overheating them constantly.
__________________

__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 10:37 PM   #31
Site Team
 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,940
Images: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
Would you prefer to be involved with # 1 or # 2, and why?

This should really make people think, and hopefully, make a great thread.

Andy
I would choose #3, Howie's method. With individual fuses on each magnet, a short or partial short will blow the fuse on that magnet and leave the others fully operational.

And no fires to put out.
__________________
markdoane is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 11:51 PM   #32
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS
Hi, Andy. Do you really mean to have a major brake service / inspection done every 10,000 miles? Not a major brake job; Shoes, magnets, drums, springs, and / or backing plate replacement. If someone wears out their trailer brakes in 10,000 miles, they must be driveing with their foot on the brake pedal or overheating them constantly.
A major brake means you go through the system, to make sure everything is ok.

It appears that many owners would rather wait for something to happen, before they spend any money on repairs.

Gosh, I wonder what would happen to the Airline industry, if they waited for things to malfunction, instead of preventive maintenance.

That would probably eliminate the need for reservations, since so many seats would be available.

When it comes to "really" enjoying an Airstream product for many years, proper preventive maintenance is the key.

Proper PM, usually eliminates most surprise failures, and minimizes expenditures, over the long haul.

That applies to many things in RVing. The trailer and tow vehicle or motorhome.

We, "as an example", have warned owners through this forums, about the extreme failure rate of the small spindle axles.

Yet, the issue for most part, is ignored.

As a result of that, we, almost weekly, get a frantic call from someone, that has an Airstream equipped with a small spindle axle, that has a failure, many miles from home, and are stranded, and of course 1/2 way between a couple of towns they never heard of.

They then are confronted with the fact that it may take time to create a replacement, freight that axle, as well as freight costs.

When they ask, why not send it "air freight," there is a huge silence when they find out the freight costs far more than the axle.

Unfortunately, most owners, who have those small spindles, wind up being a victim, of their own choosing.

Likewise, many owners experience the same disappointments, when they ignore proper PM, to their trailer or motorhome, for other things as well.

A breakdown with an RV, when on a trip, is always a huge disappointment, time consuming, and expensive, especially when you add in the additional costs of meals and motels, freight bills, and are at the mercy of some shop you know nothing about.

That one week vacation can turn into a couple of weeks of nightmares, and huge expenses, that plays havoc with a persons finances.

Proper PM, is always a smart thing to do.

Yes, it can be ignored, but sooner or later, it will become words that you will never again, ignore.

Ask those that did ignore it, and paid the penalty.

Andy
__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 11:15 AM   #33
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Celaya, Gto. , MEXICO
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 24
Question

I agree with Andy about proper PM, and also must be transported or traslated to the human been, for example, we should go to a "check up", and a lot of people doesnt do that. (sorry for my spelling if its wrong).

But Andy what do you think about the Howie´s suggestion in the part of a put a fuse for a separate magnet?
__________________
DOCTOR-MX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 01:20 PM   #34
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOCTOR-MX
I agree with Andy about proper PM, and also must be transported or traslated to the human been, for example, we should go to a "check up", and a lot of people doesnt do that. (sorry for my spelling if its wrong).

But Andy what do you think about the Howie´s suggestion in the part of a put a fuse for a separate magnet?
i disagree with any fuses, let alone one per wheel.

If a magnet has worn into the coil, it is "NOT" a dead short.

Therefore it will still provide some braking. If the fuse blows, there will be zero braking from that wheel.

My other reason for object to a fuse, is even more basic.

Why would a magnet develope a short?

I have never seen a electric brake magnet simply having a short.

It can, have a partial short because of wear into the coil.

The wear into the coli, indicates, to me, gross disregard for proper PM.

Magnets have wear patterns, that still allow many more miles past that point of wear.

If that wear has been permitted to get into the coil, then obviously, proper PM has been disregarded.

Proper electric brake PM, would not allow a magnet to wear into the coil, no matter what.

Therefore, putting a fuse in the magnet lines, simply allows someone to ignore proper PM.

Think of a brake magnet just like a tire.

Do we allow all the tread to wear off of a tire before we replace it? Heck no.

Why? Proper PM of tires tells us not to go beyond the built in wear pattern.

Again, magnets have wear patterns.

So why in the world would someone want to defeat that wear indicator, is beyond my understanding.

Ignoring or making excuses for lack of proper PM for electric brakes every 10,000 miles, is a good way to get into a lot of trouble.

Lets see how many people, in time, that have the never lube bearing axles,
who will also ignore proper brake PM, will all of a sudden find out that they have no brakes, and ruined the drums in the process.

Would those owners own up to that?

I doubt it, since human nature basically tells us to seldom compliment, always gripe and complain, make opinions sound like facts, overstate someones selling prices, and at the head of the list, we find, never own up to a mistake, especially a dumb one, and really especially when a bunch of other people would say to that person, "we tried to tell you."

PM saves lives.

But a few will even disagree with that.

Andy
__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 01:35 PM   #35
Rivet Master
 
1977 31' Sovereign
1963 26' Overlander
1989 34' Excella
Johnsburg , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,941
I always check that the brakes are working on the way out of the campground when I am leaving in the morning. When on the dirt or gravel road, it is easy to see that all the brakes lock up when you use the lever at slow speed. Then, the wife gets in the tow vehicle and we go. She also checks the brake and directional lights at the same time. Preventive maintenance at home, is a necessity, if you want to have a good time on the road.
__________________
dwightdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 02:32 PM   #36
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Celaya, Gto. , MEXICO
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 24
Thumbs up

Thanks Andy, all you wrote seem logic and correct IMHO, so Im going to follow your recomendations. Thanks again to all of you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
i disagree with any fuses, let alone one per wheel.

If a magnet has worn into the coil, it is "NOT" a dead short.

Therefore it will still provide some braking. If the fuse blows, there will be zero braking from that wheel.

My other reason for object to a fuse, is even more basic.

Why would a magnet develope a short?

I have never seen a electric brake magnet simply having a short.

It can, have a partial short because of wear into the coil.

The wear into the coli, indicates, to me, gross disregard for proper PM.

Magnets have wear patterns, that still allow many more miles past that point of wear.

If that wear has been permitted to get into the coil, then obviously, proper PM has been disregarded.

Proper electric brake PM, would not allow a magnet to wear into the coil, no matter what.

Therefore, putting a fuse in the magnet lines, simply allows someone to ignore proper PM.

Think of a brake magnet just like a tire.

Do we allow all the tread to wear off of a tire before we replace it? Heck no.

Why? Proper PM of tires tells us not to go beyond the built in wear pattern.

Again, magnets have wear patterns.

So why in the world would someone want to defeat that wear indicator, is beyond my understanding.

Ignoring or making excuses for lack of proper PM for electric brakes every 10,000 miles, is a good way to get into a lot of trouble.

Lets see how many people, in time, that have the never lube bearing axles,
who will also ignore proper brake PM, will all of a sudden find out that they have no brakes, and ruined the drums in the process.

Would those owners own up to that?

I doubt it, since human nature basically tells us to seldom compliment, always gripe and complain, make opinions sound like facts, overstate someones selling prices, and at the head of the list, we find, never own up to a mistake, especially a dumb one, and really especially when a bunch of other people would say to that person, "we tried to tell you."

PM saves lives.

But a few will even disagree with that.

Andy
__________________
DOCTOR-MX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 04:06 PM   #37
Rivet Master
 
HowieE's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
Princeton , New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,811
Images: 12
I am not sure I should just laugh at some of these statement and leave you to fate or attempt to impart some sence to this discusstion.

Take this one

Think of a brake magnet just like a tire.

Do we allow all the tread to wear off of a tire before we replace it? Heck no.

If this were the case then there would be no reason for the federal Government to require tire pressure monitors on the new cars. We all look at our tire regularly as a form of PM and there for we would never have a flat. How many of you have had a flat with over 50% of the tire tread still on the tire.

While the magnet is one potential source of a short in the brake system the wiring through the trailer and within the brake assembly are also potential shorts do to wire abrasion. Airstream hides all the brake wiring, running through metal framing, so PM is out of the question.

I originaly made the suggestion as a form of insurance that would go one step further in protecting an asset. It was never intended to replace periodic servicing. The idea came to me after I had lost the brakes on one of my other trailers because of an abraided wire in the axle tube. Luckily I did not have a fire because that one of those other unnessary item, the circuit braker, opened.

Now please don't come back and say Airstream doesn't run the wires through the axle tubes. That is a given.
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles

HowieE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 08:10 PM   #38
Rivet Master
 
Zeppelinium's Avatar

 
1975 31' Sovereign
1973 27' Overlander
1977 23' Safari
Palmer Lake , Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,908
Send a message via Skype™ to Zeppelinium
Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE
I ...
Now please don't come back and say Airstream doesn't run the wires through the axle tubes. That is a given.
OK, I've worked extensively on 5 different models and no wires were in the axle tubes--they were inside the belly pan and perhaps inside the frame C channel. Maybe the 90's are different.

That being said, you are so right about the PM issue. Taking down the belly pan to inspect the brake wires is, like, duh, a major shame.

Zep
Zeppelinium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 09:39 PM   #39
Streamline Imperial
 
SilvrSausage's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Bellflower , California
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 109
Lightbulb

Being the type to over-engineer things, I like the idea of one fuse per magnet circuit, with a higher-wattage bulb in series to act as not only an indicator, but a ballast, providing a modest current to an intermittently shorting brake. The higher wattage the ballast, the more carefully you have to size the fuse.

One other important consideration, is protecting the fuses from corrosion. Think of the fog of sometimes salty water behind a TV; even if you make it a point never to drive in the rain, there are wet gutters etc. The connections, and sometimes the fuse elements themselves, subtly corrode and stop working in a difficult-to-detect manner. I recommend vaseline on the fuse terminals and spade connections if you use them, or better yet solder the wires to the fuseholder. There are also some neat RV fuse boards on the market with common positive and LEDs installed; they can be cut up or modified for multiple circuits.

The fuses, being a failure point in a critical circuit, are left out by manufacturers for a reason, not just cheapness. The cars I work on have unfused ignition and headlight circuits for this reason. Only rarely does a short "let all the smoke out of the harness" in practice, but when it does, usually in a minor front collision, it burns several feet of a bundle of 20-30 wires, which must be unravelled like spaghetti, and individually inspected and mended. To fuse, or not to fuse, is not a light decision. It's not for the no-maintenance owner, that's for sure.

I recently wired the tail light circuit on an SOB trailer with three taillight circuits individually fused, and such that no single failure leaves a whole side of the trailer dark, and no two failures make the entire front or back dark. This was prompted by more than one emergency, string wires along the frame on a camping trip at night incident.

Energy spent running individual circuits is just as well spent eliminating chafe points and making sure flex areas are distributed without allowing vibration or flapping.
-SilvrSausage
__________________
It seems I love the mountains and deserts more than my friends do. I sure miss them!

1971 Streamline Imperial project "Silver Snausage", 1985 Coleman tent trailer, 1964 Little Dipper, 1975 Northwest "Proto Toyhauler", 2004 Harbor Freight folding, still seeking my Airstream.
SilvrSausage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 09:49 AM   #40
Rivet Master
 
HowieE's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
Princeton , New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,811
Images: 12
One other suggeation I have posted in the past and will mention again is the use of grossly undersize wiring in tow packages supplied by the manufactures.

Generaly speaking these tow packages are sufficient for a small boat or camping trailer. However when you start pulling a larger trailer with numbers of marker lights or 3 axles the problems start. This site will show you what happens when I was pulling a 34 ft. Airstream with a Suburban.
More photos
The number of marker lights caused the harness to melt at the light switch. Now GM is quite aware of the problem because they have a replacement short, 18 in., harrness to be installed after the melting for $54.00. As far as the brake wire in the Suburban I used #10 wire to supply the controller and through the truck to the plug. This greatly reduced the voltage drop within the truck and provided better brakeing.

To eliminate the problem at the head light switch once and for all I relayed all of the trailer lights off the trailer batteries and later replaced all the marker and brake lights on the trailer will LEDS. Now only the signal current to the relays goes throught the factory wires. The installation of the LEDS was for 2 reasons. The factory trailer lights drew quite a current off the trailer batteries and since I often drive till 11 pm the brilliance would start to drop off in the winter months. The LEDS are much brighter and draw far less current.
http://www.airforums.com/photos/show...?i=15043&c=507

I can not illustrate the fact that the trailer brake and turn lights are squcenced to come on at the inner lamp first then the center lamp then the outter lamp. This is a very bright and effective display that clearly indicates what I intend to do.
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles

HowieE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2008, 01:08 AM   #41
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,268
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
Melted wires

Hi, HowieE. On Fords with the factory tow package , they have relays to carry the load to the trailer connector. This puts no additional load on the switches. On my brother's class "A" motorhome his ignition switch and connectors melted. [just repaired today] GM said it was Fleetwoods fault for the overload, but GM will sell him an upgrade kit, with relays, to repair it with.
__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2008, 10:35 AM   #42
Rivet Master
 
HowieE's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
Princeton , New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,811
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS
Hi, HowieE. On Fords with the factory tow package , they have relays to carry the load to the trailer connector. This puts no additional load on the switches. On my brother's class "A" motorhome his ignition switch and connectors melted. [just repaired today] GM said it was Fleetwoods fault for the overload, but GM will sell him an upgrade kit, with relays, to repair it with.
For the cost of a $5.00 relay GM and Fleetwood would run the risk of a fire. I have see the same thing with the Sprinters motor homes. Both sides blame the other when the light fail.

Keep in mind the so called up grade, if it is the kit I metioned above it uses the same size wire as the original. Also it is not color coded, all white wires. I would suggest you relay the marker light load off a seperate circuit.

As for Ford I am about to upsize the brake light wiring in my just purchased 2004 Excursion because of excessive voltage drop in the barke circuit from the controller to the trailer connector.
__________________

__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles

HowieE is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electric Brakes 61 Bambi Brakes & Brake Controllers 5 05-17-2007 07:13 AM
electric brakes Al1 Brakes & Brake Controllers 16 02-08-2005 08:59 PM
more about electric brakes openroad Brakes & Brake Controllers 14 01-03-2005 08:51 PM
Electric Brakes dbaverb Brakes & Brake Controllers 7 09-12-2004 09:27 PM
How can I test my electric brakes? Swingking Brakes & Brake Controllers 7 03-04-2003 07:14 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.