Kodiak Disks undersized?

[2airishuman]

lets take a CLOSER look at one set of pads 2 assess how MUCH wear happens in over 50,000 miles of use...

here (below) is an INNER pad surface...




and this next pics is an OUTER pad wear surface...



with the pads turned for this next shot we can see that the pads didn't make FULL contact with the rotor...

in other words there is an OUTER margin of pad which didn't wear because it was NOT touching the rotor..




that outer UNworn margin will help to reveal the EXTENT of wear on the rest of the pad surface.

cheers
2air'

[2airishuman]

as new, this photos suggest the approximate depth.

typically OUTER pads are thicker than INNER pads as shown here...



angle and light adjusted slightly and the UNworn margin on another set is seen...



it seems reasonable to suggest that NOT much of these pads are worn away after > 55,000 miles of towing.

cheers
2air

ZOOOOOM PICS for larger views...

[2airishuman]

without a micrometer measuring pad depth or the REMAINING pad, these assessments are vague...

but here is another way of looking at USED pad material ...




the GAP seen here /\ and here \/ suggests ~how much pad has been used from the SET for one wheel...



i did measure these compared to the NEW replacement pads and ~2 mm difference was noted on ALL the worn pads...

cheers
2air'

zooom pixs for larger views...

[2airishuman]

this string of posts at least SUGGESTS the kodiak disc can provide a LOT of use...

OR that i failed to BRAKE much in 55,000 miles of towing...

so HOW or WHY can some users report LESS than 10k or even 5k of duty before NEW pads are needed...

while these pads look to be good for ANOTHER 50,000 miles easy...???

i had gathered so MANY reports from reliable service shops AND owners about POOR pad life that it was important for me 2 sort OUT this issue...

and i did last year, after several exchanges with kodiak and their suppliers...
_____________

here's the short version...

kodiak is primarily an aftermarket supplier of disc brake upgrade kits...

1. and MOST of those go to BOATING trailers owners (as diy) or marine shops doing UPgrades on boating trailers...

the a/s market and use came later.

kodiak has supplied kits with ORGANIC, semi-metallic and ceramic pads.

the CERAMICS go primarily to BOATING use because they perform BETTER with water exposure (less/no rust)

and those boat trailer kits OFTEN have stainless lines or rotors too...

and because BOATers tend to tow SHORTER distances...

so the ceramics THEY use (at the request of MARINE users) last many seasons (without rust) but don't go MUCH distance.

2. shortly after a/s started using the K- brakes on the ASSEMBLY line, kodiak began shipping SEMI metallic pads with those OEM installs.

THAT is WHAT MY TRAILER GOT WHEN BUILT IN march of 05...

some early kits had organic, but MOST of the factory ASSEMBLY LINE installs were with SEMI METALLIC pads.

THE SEMI METALLIC PADS wear LONGER than the ceramics...

but do produce some RUST on both the pads and rotor faces (from ferrous fibers imbedded)...

3. the dealers/service shops and DIY folks can REQUEST either pad material...

but MANY/most of the KITS go out with ceramics pads if NOT specified,

OR because the service shop/secondary vendor, or customer thinks the ceramics are BETTER,

but they are NOT better, except in WET/low use applications...

4. so when i SPECIFICALLY mentioned the high mileage on my set...

the kodiak rep said "YOU GOT THE SEMI METALLIC PADS",

and "if you want the same performance in the NEXT set buy semi metallic replacements..."

so the replacements purchased were also semi metallic, direct fit, oem spec and size.
____________

so the puzzle was solved, at least 2 my satisfaction.

this report is NOT ABOUT ALL brand or versions of ceramic pads...

there are several companies MAKING pads and DOZENS of brand labels STAMPED on those pads...

but it IS my understanding of how and WHY kodiak supplies WHAT they supply...
____________

and i sure am happy with the 1st AND 2nd set of SEMI METALLIC pads in THIS application.

cheers
2air'

[2airishuman]

ok,

WHERE did the replacement pads come from ???

here.



with this model/size/part # info...



these replacement pads were EXACTLY the same size,

and the pad material appeared 2 be the same stuff.

and had exactly the same backing plates, stamps, springs and so on.

to my eye they appeared to be CLONES of the oem pads.

and from the SAME original maker supplied to napa.
_________________

i'll provide a report about HOW LONG the replacements last...

expect the post in 2012 or about 50,000 miles from now.

and at THAT time, i might just put the first set back on...

cheers
2air'

[ticki2]

Excellent report 2air. One thought after ready you explaination was that it may be beneficial to some owners who don't do high milage to use the ceramic for the low rust issue , similar to boaters.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by ticki2

..it may be beneficial to some owners who don't do high milage to use the ceramic for the low rust issue , similar to boaters.

i agree.

and IF you buy a diy kit make sure the parts MATCH the needs.

matching nuts n bolts to the WING NUT is a good idea.

this info isn't based on ALL possible ceramic pads either, some brands/models are considered VERY long lasting.

there is a LOT of variety in compounds in each pad type.

also organics is a confusing group.

until 88 these all contained asbestos.

NOW oem organic pads must be asbestos free.

but in the aftermarket asbestos is still used and available.

organics WITH asbestos generally last LONGER than those without.

but shop practices need to "safe" whenever asbestos MIGHT be in the pads...

thanks for reading the whole thing.

cheers
2air'


cheers
2air'

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, from my experience with brakes, I prefer the ceramic pads. I feel a slight better stopping power and they seem to last just as long as semi-metalic pads. [your rotors might wear a little quicker] In my opinion, organic pads/shoes don't last and don't stop well at all. Only upside to organic pads are that your wheels will be cleaner, easier to clean your wheels, and they cost less $$$$ at a cost of less stopping power. Time and mileage on brakes has many factors. Size of braking system versus vehicle weight. City driving with many stops per mile versus HWY driving where many miles can be traveled with vertually no brake useage. And one of the biggest factors when it comes to towing; Riding your brakes heavily down mountains instead of manually down shifting your tow vehicle and lightly, occassionally, applying your brakes to keep at a safe speed. There also needs to be a balance of braking between your tow vehicle and trailer. [properly adjusted brake controller] Having your tow vehicle doing most of the braking will over heat and wear out it's brakes sooner; Same goes for trying to stop your tow vehicle with your trailer brakes. Basic rule of thumb: If at a certain grade [ie.7% Etc] you had to use second gear to get up the mountain, then you should also use the same gear to go down the other side, providing the grade is the same [ie. 7% Etc]

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, from my experience with brakes, I prefer the ceramic pads....In my opinion, organic pads/shoes don't last and don't stop well at all....

but bob...

i though u preferred DRUM brakes for trailering?

UNrelated to trailers, i have a track car that is 20 years old.

only 2 sets of pads in 20 years, BOTH organic but WITH ASBESTOS.

and still good for 2 more seasons i suspect.

my other tracking car that is pictured in this thread uses semi metal pads on the track.

usually good for 3-4 events before worn to the sensors.

as i posted earlier, this report is NOT about cars or ALL pad types just the 2 specific pads mentioned and USED by kodiak...

and the wide variance in longevity with them.

pad SIZE/fitting also dictate choices. i looked at dozens of brands and vendors...

there were 2 ceramics versions in the correct Kodiak size and NEITHER vendor recommended them for THIS application.

the kodiak ROTORS are extremely thick, so wear on the rotor side isn't a huge consideration either.

cheers
2air'

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, I do prefer drum brakes on my trailer; Mostly because they always work and are consistant. [more reliable] But longivity of brakes is more of a testiment of driver ability matched with road/traffic conditions than with brand names and type of systems used. And this is for any and all vehicles with brakes, not just trailers.

[Xbob2]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

yea but were they painted black?

mine are painted black

cheers
2air'

Dosen't the paint go away after first use and leave bare steel?
Bob

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Xbob2

Dosen't the paint go away after first use and leave bare steel?
Bob

hi bob

that black paint reference and exchange in posts #13-15 is related to centramatics...

these are aluminum plates with oil bathed bearings at the perimeter...

and provide 'continuous' balancing to the wheel/tire assembly.

they are slipped over the lug studs just before the RIM/wheel are mounted.

here's a pic (zooom it) with 2 centramatics and one rotor just before the plate is put back on...



i had some early concern using them MIGHT limit cooling the rotors and lead to warpage, but that appears to be UNfounded.

the rotors are fine (as are other users), and the balancing plates keep MOST brake dust from reaching the rims.

____________

i guess is u r thinking of painted rotors, which come in SOME of the kits...

and THAT paint would come off with braking.

for more photos of the installation and other user tweaks read here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f439...ics-30727.html

cheers
2air'

[Xbob2]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

hi bob

that black paint reference and exchange in posts #13-15 is related to centramatics...

these are aluminum plates with oil bathed bearings at the perimeter...

and provide 'continuous' balancing to the wheel/tire assembly.

they are slipped over the lug studs just before the RIM/wheel are mounted.

here's a pic (zooom it) with 2 centramatics and one rotor just before the plate is put back on...

Attachment 90394

i had some early concern using them MIGHT limit cooling the rotors and lead to warpage, but that appears to be UNfounded.

the rotors are fine (as are other users), and the balancing plates keep MOST brake dust from reaching the rims.

____________

i guess is u r thinking of painted rotors, which come in SOME of the kits...

and THAT paint would come off with braking.

for more photos of the installation and other user tweaks read here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f439...ics-30727.html

cheers
2air'

Thanks! I was corn-fused
Bob

[Inland RV Center, In]

Centramatic balancers contain anti-magnetic weights suspended in synthetic oil, and are automatically redistributed as the wheel turns.

The beads are durametal, a hardened lead alloy. The dampening fluid, is a proprietary synthetic oil.

Centrifical force places the weights in exactly the correct position. down to 1/10 th of an ounce, which produces a continual dynamic balance.

They increase tire life 25 to 50 percent.

They help prevent tire cupping.

Tires run cooler.

Automatically balances as you drive and/or tow.

Reduces vibration.

Easy and simple to install.

They start working at typically 20 to 22 mph.

They are covered by a 5 year "Unlimited mileage warranty".

That information comes from Centramatic.

Andy

[2airishuman]

claims are only claims.

this thread is really about disc brakes.

with a couple of corollary notes related to the C product.

but there are MANY threads out there on these pie pans...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...ate-32907.html

going back AT LEAST 5 years...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f437...ces-10971.html

and on less expensive, also "PROVEN" alternatives...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...eads-4460.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f465...nce-28001.html
____________

in USAGE i've experienced NO INCREASE in tire life and NO CHANGE in tire temps.

but the wheels have ALSO been balanced correctly at the bead and on the wheel back side...

so MY personal experience with the pie pan/plates is mixed, after nearly 3 YEARS of use.

VERY easy to mount, keeps the wheels a little cleaner...

but NOT much else in the way of MAJOR improvements as advertised.

i do pretend that they reduced the NEED for rebalancing tire/wheels as the tread wears away,

but that may be JUST MY IMAGINATION (gotta love that song)

also they do NOT fit behind the standard STEEL spare rim supplied by a/s on newer units.
________________

the plates ARE nicely made.

another NICE FEATURE is that SO MANY VENDORS carry them,

AND they can be ordered directly from the maker...

CHOICE (brake options, balancing options, vendors) is a very good thing.

but ALL magic claims should be swallowed in tiny bites and with help nearby in cases of a bad reaction to the magic.

i've read that spam makes a VERY good car wax too...

cheers
2air'

[Inland RV Center, In]

Someday, someone just might make a product that won't be subject to ridicule, or accused of false ads.

Disc brakes are here to stay, regardless, but if someone doen't like them, they can always go back to electric brakes.

Andy