Traveling in cold weather!

[Hans627]

I know that we are months away from cold weather but we are considering taking our AS to FL this winter. We will not be living in it over the winter but want to use it for side trips as we have a home in FL.

My question is related to traveling when it is cold, below freezing. From PA we will most likely take about 4 days/nights to get to FL as I am limited to a certain number of hours traveling per day because my DW has back problems. And we will most likely be leaving after the first of the year, so it will be cold.

I will winterize the AS before leaving but we will be sleeping in it when traveling to FL. So is toilet use possible? Will using the furnace keep drains/toilet from freezing?

Any tips or ideas appreciated. They will be helpful in making our final plans.

Thanks!

[Len n Jeanne]

According to our first AS salesman, you can manually flush the toilet in a winterized AS. Just keep some water jugs on hand for this purpose, then put an RV antifreeze or mild antifreeze like windshield washer fluid down the toilet, as well. This should prevent your "stuff" from freezing.

For a non-winterized AS, the furnace is helpful as it shoots hot air under the floor boards. So long as daytime temps get above freezing, you should be fine. But if daytime temps will stay below freezing, too, and you're not winterized you'd probably have to drive with your furnace on, as well.

We did that once when a. m. temps were 19F, but we didn't feel great about it.

[Piggy Bank]

Not intending to get too gross here.

But you could also consider non-water options if you have further concerns about using water.

I learned this from Len and Jeanne (poster above) actually. I have not done this, but it makes sense.

Line the empty dry toilet bowl with 2 kitchen trash bags. Put gardner's peat moss in the bag. It is absorbent and light weight. Use the toilet with the bags in it like a latrine. (i.e. don't flush) After a few uses, remove the inner bag with the peat moss and waste, and secure and throw away in a dumpster. Re-line with another bag. Not considerably different than a baby diaper or pet waste.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I would avoid using the toilet if you are running below freezing all day. I would also not count on the heating system to be very effective when if it's zero out at night.

The other un-mentioned issue is condensation. You will have a lot of moisture in the AS from sleeping in it. That will condense on the windows and walls. It's no different than a tight sealed tent in winter. You don't really appreciate how much moisture you exhale / sweat until it all condenses back out again ....

Bob

[Protagonist]

I've been camping in below-freezing temperatures. My Airstream is an Interstate class B motorhome, not a trailer, so some of the things I did might not work for you. But here's my advice for trailer owners, for what it's worth:

1 - Only camp where you have shore power. Batteries don't perform as well when it's cold. Batteries make electricity by chemical processes, and most chemical processes are slowed by cold.
2 - As long as you have shore power, run an electric dehumidifier. I have a desktop model that I set up on the galley counter. Drier air means less condensation.
3 - Cover your windows with Reflectix or Prodex. Or clear bubble wrap from the UPS Store if you still want to let in light. You'll lose more heat through the windows that anywhere except the door as you go in and out.
4 - When you go in, stay in as long as you can. When you go out, stay out as long as you can. Opening the door frequently causes your trailer to lose heated air quickly.
5 - Use bottled water exclusively (and carry the water in the tow vehicle while in transit, not in the trailer). Don't bother with electrically heated hoses like you can buy at Camping World, because even though the hose might be heated, the service pedestal spigot isn't heated, and your water supply will still be frozen.
6 - Don't count on the campground bathhouse having water, either. Hand sanitizer can be used to clean all of your skin, not just your hands (but keep it out of your eyes). Or you can bathe everything but your hair (not a problem for me, mind you) in just a quart of water if you do it right, by taking a sponge bath (or as some call it, a cat bath). Better for water saving than even the famous Navy shower. I got lots of practice sponge bathing when I was laid up after surgery and couldn't shower lest I get my unhealed incisions wet. AND sponge-bathing each other is good clean fun besides!
7 - Use only paper plates and bowls, plastic cups, and plastic utensils, and stick to meals that can be microwaved (or don't need cooking at all, like salads, garnished with fully-cooked canned meats like chunk chicken) so you don't have to wash dishes or pots and pans.
8 - A cassette-style port-a-potty is good for calls of nature in cold-weather camping. Alternately, there are kits to turn a 5-gallon plastic bucket into a toilet, if you need the extra capacity. Either way, set it up in your shower stall since you won't be taking showers anyway. Handy hint, clumping kitty litter clumps for human pee the same as it clumps for cat pee, and can be used to deodorize as well as de-liquefy your used port-a-potty bags. Another handy hint, a thick Styrofoam ring as a toilet seat never feels uncomfortably cold to the touch no matter what the temperature is.
9 - A desktop model electric heater with tip-over switch on the base makes an excellent supplement for your furnace, but is not a substitute for the furnace, because it doesn't heat the belly pan.
10 - Try not to cook with gas. The stove is the only propane appliance that has the flame inside the living area instead of vented to outside, and water vapor is a combustion byproduct of propane. Cooking with propane makes the air more humid and increases condensation on cold surfaces.

I'm sure the next time I go cold-weather camping, I'll remember more advice that I should have said here, but for now this should be more than enough…

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Ok, here's a couple more:

1) Sandwich the same bubble pack stuff between the screen door and the main door to the trailer. You can't see through the window in the door anyway.

2) Sleeping bags make more sense than piles of blankets. If you can find mummy sacks that fit you (I have a "to tall" problem ...) they are your best bet.

3) Your "charge level" gizmo that works off of battery voltage lies to you big time when it is below freezing. It will call a half discharged battery (= stop using it) as fully charged.

4) Tires like it warm. Keep it easy early in the morning. Give them a bit of time to warm up by rumbling down the road.

5) It gets dark early in January. If you normally aim to make camp at 3:30 in July, that gives you a solid 5 hours before dark. For the same margin in January, you would pull over just past noon ....

6) Road salt and an AS are not a good combo at all. Plan on some sort of major wash down at the end of the route. It needs to include at least two passes of full spray under the entire trailer.

7) A normal trailer + tow are compromised for braking under the best of conditions. Toss in snow and / or ice ... yikes. Just pull over if the weather is rotten. Let them get the roads back into shape and move on in a day or two.

8) That nice back route that gets you around Washington DC in the summer? How wide will the road be "as plowed" in the winter? Don't count on the back roads ....Interstates have their issues as well, but they usually are plowed.

9) Same "as plowed" point on parking at Walmart or other locations .... yes, the plowing issue should be less the further south you get.

10) Bottled water / milk / beer (yes beer) will all freeze if left in un-heated space overnight. They also will freeze in an un-heated trailer during the day. The same is true of canned goods if it gets pretty cold.

11) Heating a trailer that is in motion involves dealing with a 60 mph "breeze" cooling the outside of the beast. They are not really air tight so infiltration matters as well. Solar gain would normally be your friend during the day. The air cooling negates most of it.

Bottom line - January and early February are not the best times to do this. Late February into March would be a better bet. Past March - not a problem.

Bob

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

11) Heating a trailer that is in motion involves dealing with a 60 mph "breeze" cooling the outside of the beast. They are not really air tight so infiltration matters as well. Solar gain would normally be your friend during the day. The air cooling negates most of it.

Yes and no.

Here's an example:
Say the air temperature is 40°F, so it's above freezing. You're traveling at 50mph (that's the highest wind shown on the National Weather Service's wind chill chart). The wind chill factor is 26°F Will anything in your trailer freeze? The answer is "No." Regardless of the wind chill, the temperature is still above freezing.

Wind chill only affects living creatures with a metabolism, that are trying to stay warm by their own internal heat. If you're in 40°F air and in a 50mph wind, you will get hypothermia just as quickly as if you were in 26°F air with no wind. You'll die of hypothermia, and quickly, but you will not get frostbite because you still won't freeze at the actual temperature of 40°F.

So the effect of moving air on your trailer's temperature as you drive down the highway is "no effect at all." It won't get any colder at highway speeds than it would sitting still. It will just get cold faster.

[1973Argosy]

6) Road salt and an AS are not a good combo at all. Plan on some sort of major wash down at the end of the route. It needs to include at least two passes of full spray under the entire trailer.

A oscillating fan type water sprinkler does a hell of a job of rinsing salt/mud/road grime from the underside of your trailer or tow vehicle. Simply slide the sprinkler under the vehicle and turn on the water. You will have to move the sprinkler several times to insure you rinse it completely.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

Yes and no.

Here's an example:
Say the air temperature is 40°F, so it's above freezing. You're traveling at 50mph (that's the highest wind shown on the National Weather Service's wind chill chart). The wind chill factor is 26°F Will anything in your trailer freeze? The answer is "No." Regardless of the wind chill, the temperature is still above freezing.

Wind chill only affects living creatures with a metabolism, that are trying to stay warm by their own internal heat. If you're in 40°F air and in a 50mph wind, you will get hypothermia just as quickly as if you were in 26°F air with no wind. You'll die of hypothermia, and quickly, but you will not get frostbite because you still won't freeze at the actual temperature of 40°F.

So the effect of moving air on your trailer's temperature as you drive down the highway is "no effect at all." It won't get any colder at highway speeds than it would sitting still. It will just get cold faster.

Hi

Sitting in a field in the sun, the skin of the AS will heat up. That happens at 0F just like it does at 120F. Convection is pretty rotten for cooling the skin of the trailer. Start it moving down the road and you have forced air cooling. The skin is at air temperature. If you judge the heating process with the trailer in the driveway, you will be surprised running down the road.

Bob

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Sitting in a field in the sun, the skin of the AS will heat up. That happens at 0F just like it does at 120F. Convection is pretty rotten for cooling the skin of the trailer. Start it moving down the road and you have forced air cooling. The skin is at air temperature. If you judge the heating process with the trailer in the driveway, you will be surprised running down the road.

Your point is well taken. You are addressing cooling from hotter than the air down to ambient air temperature due to the wind on the skin of the trailer. Which is why I said, "Yes and no."

This thread pertains to winter travel, so I felt it appropriate to mention wind chill. Everyone has heard of it, but not everyone understands exactly what wind chill means. Using one of the few examples from the wind chill chart where the air temperature is above freezing and the wind chill is below freezing allowed me to illustrate that wind chill doesn't make the trailer colder than the air, it just makes the trailer cold faster. Which is also what you said, but you addressed going from warm to cold, whereas I was addressing it going (actually not going) from cold to colder.

What I am saying is that we are both right.

[greghoro]

If you have Lithium batteries, you will want to disable charging them while the temperature is below freezing.

This includes charging from the tow vehicle, roof mounted solar panels, as well as your convertor when on shore power.


Greg

[devilsbox]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

According to our first AS salesman, you can manually flush the toilet in a winterized AS. Just keep some water jugs on hand for this purpose, then put an RV antifreeze or mild antifreeze like windshield washer fluid down the toilet, as well. This should prevent your "stuff" from freezing.

Just a thought, Windshield washer fluid is very flammable. I've used it to start a campfire.

Not sure you'd want that in your black water (or any other) holding tank.

Larry

[1973Argosy]

Originally Posted by devilsbox

Just a thought, Windshield washer fluid is very flammable. I've used it to start a campfire.

Not sure you'd want that in your black water (or any other) holding tank.

Larry

I'd bet that the alcohol in washer fluid isn't good for the dump valve rubber seals either.

[Wingeezer]

I haven't read all the intervening replies, but in response to your original question ...


We leave our home near Toronto Canada each Feb. with no water in the trailer, and with plumbing antifreeze in the plumbing system en route to either Florida or Arizona.

Been doing it for 19 winters I think, and each time, we stop for our first night at a Flying J truck stop. We run the furnace on battery - in recent years we have added a Honda generator, but water in the system.

Mostly we use the toilet facilities at the FJ, but if needed to use the RV toilet at night to pee, just flush it with plumbing antifreeze.


usually our second night is pretty close to Florida, so we stop at a regular campground,get teh antifreeze out, and than can use all facilities in the trailer.

Once or twice we have had to stop at FJ truck stops two nights i a row, but not a problem

[lkm4321]

We have made a couple of 6 day trips when the Temps ranged from 10 to 30 degrees, left furnace set on 50 degrees while on the road and always found a place to plug in for the night. Once overnighted in Wyoming when wind chill was -5 and ambient was 8. Winterized at a KOA at 17 degrees. The key is to leave your furnace on, yes you will go through 40lbs of propane every 3 days, but you and your trailer will be warm.

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

Your point is well taken. You are addressing cooling from hotter than the air down to ambient air temperature due to the wind on the skin of the trailer. Which is why I said, "Yes and no."

This thread pertains to winter travel, so I felt it appropriate to mention wind chill. Everyone has heard of it, but not everyone understands exactly what wind chill means. Using one of the few examples from the wind chill chart where the air temperature is above freezing and the wind chill is below freezing allowed me to illustrate that wind chill doesn't make the trailer colder than the air, it just makes the trailer cold faster. Which is also what you said, but you addressed going from warm to cold, whereas I was addressing it going (actually not going) from cold to colder.

What I am saying is that we are both right.

I concur

[Len n Jeanne]

Originally Posted by devilsbox

Just a thought, Windshield washer fluid is very flammable. I've used it to start a campfire.

Not sure you'd want that in your black water (or any other) holding tank.

Larry

Obviously safety is an important consideration, but when it goes down the toilet, it's in small amounts diluted with jugged water for a manual flush. Really, the point is just to prevent the black water from freezing. A small amount of RV anti-freeze should work well. But the windshield washer fluid was advice from our AS salesman at Can-Am in London, Ontario.

So, hmmm.... don't smoke or light incense in the potty?

We've used the garden peat moss solution on a few trips, notably summer desert boondocking camping, where water conservation is paramount. A hint for anyone interested in trying this: get your peat moss now, as garden centers and hardware stores may not have any on hand in the fall when you think you want it. Others have recommended kitty litter, but peat moss is a whole lot lighter.

Some other great points in previous posts have to do with interior condensation. This is a real issue, so we'd try to leave wet coats, boots, and towels in the TV, rather than inside the where they throw off a lot of moisture that condenses on interior walls and windows.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

Some other great points in previous posts have to do with interior condensation. This is a real issue, so we'd try to leave wet coats, boots, and towels in the TV, rather than inside the where they throw off a lot of moisture that condenses on interior walls and windows.

The shower makes an excellent "wet closet." Most condensation from drying clothes— also, snow/ice melting off of clothes— mostly stays trapped in the shower and goes into the gray tank. Only water vapor evaporating off of the clothes gets out of the shower to add to the condensation problem.

To me that's better than fogging the windows of the tow vehicle, and having to dash from tow vehicle to trailer and back without your coat and boots and gloves!

[Len n Jeanne]

Ah!

We could do this now with Bambi the Second, which has it's own "dry" [sic] bath. Bambi the First was a 16 footer, where the wet bath would get super crowded with a bunch of wet jackets and boots. Possibly rendering the need for an alternative winter toilet arrangement superfluous.

So far as the mad dash goes-- I won't say which chivalrous member of our duo tends to take on the tough jobs.

[Hans627]

Thank you all for such excellent suggestions. It certainly gives us various options as we put together a plan!

You're the greatest!