View Poll Results: Why did leave WBCCI ?
Cost too much 10 16.95%
Not enough value for the membership fee 19 32.20%
Too many rules 21 35.59%
I don't need to belong to group to enjoy camping 25 42.37%
Bad experience 12 20.34%
Other reason(s) 12 20.34%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-03-2017, 07:53 AM   #197
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I remember a RADIO program called "The Don McNeil Breakfast Club". As it was, prayer was said before the meal (one was eating at home) it was something like this:
"Each in his own words and each in his own way, let's bow our heads and pray".
Eliana; I think YOU showed some disrespect in "walking out". I have gone to different homes and churches and I respect their methods of worship, I am Catholic. I don't try to change them, and don't try to change me; religion, politics, guns or money etc.
I recently went to a Morman Festival in Navoo Il. and attended most of their outside activities, only Mormans can go in the Temple. Not once did anyone come up and try to get me to join, but they did explain their beliefs. They did make me feel welcome.
MJ
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:52 PM   #198
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Diversity

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Originally Posted by Eliana View Post
I'm going to assume that you didn't intend your response as rude. I didn't have a bad day. I enjoyed the rally. I made friends. I'm not quite ready to torch them, so to speak. I am rather overly patient with people and take a "wait and see" approach. There are people in the Mid-West, who despite having traveled a great deal, have never lived anywhere except in the same small town. There are people who honestly don't understand or know what "Jewish" even IS. Seriously. LOL. So although it will be a while before I see them again, because the next luncheon is scheduled on a High Holy day, I may still go back. No one was unfriendly. And no one at all was intentionally rude to me. Also, they don't know that I was dismayed by all the Christian prayer. Because I don't necessarily expect people to suddenly change because I show up and have different ideas. So I may very well go back. :0)
Welcome to the club. I totally "get" what your experience was like. I grew up in Missouri (eastern Jackson County) and I had never met a Jewish person until I went to Missouri University. Many many years later, I now live in California and our unit is secular. We do not have a prayer or any religious rituals. as a club. Those are best left to individuals to practice in their own way. We recently removed the pledge of allegiance requirement from our bylaws (we have members from Great Britain) although that is not why we did it. We are a camping club...we want no drama and no unwelcoming rituals. We camp 3 seasons because we live in California-summers we travel around the country. We invite you join us for a rally...Central Coast California and you will not be the only Jewish or single person there. We haven't served kosher food but are sensitive to allergies, vegan and vegetarian diets. Our youngest member is 1 year old and our oldest--well one member has 8 stars on his rig. Welcome to the club.
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:27 PM   #199
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Mid-Missouri Fall Boondocking Rally

Did you see this rally happening this coming weekend north of Columbia? Sounds like fun. Paula
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Old 10-03-2017, 08:25 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteSpot View Post
Welcome to the club. I totally "get" what your experience was like. I grew up in Missouri (eastern Jackson County) and I had never met a Jewish person until I went to Missouri University. Many many years later, I now live in California and our unit is secular. We do not have a prayer or any religious rituals. as a club. Those are best left to individuals to practice in their own way. We recently removed the pledge of allegiance requirement from our bylaws (we have members from Great Britain) although that is not why we did it. We are a camping club...we want no drama and no unwelcoming rituals. We camp 3 seasons because we live in California-summers we travel around the country. We invite you join us for a rally...Central Coast California and you will not be the only Jewish or single person there. We haven't served kosher food but are sensitive to allergies, vegan and vegetarian diets. Our youngest member is 1 year old and our oldest--well one member has 8 stars on his rig. Welcome to the club.
That kind of kind of submission to any group....

"We recently removed the pledge of allegiance requirement from our bylaws"

is the reason I will never leave the WBCCI as I will not have joined. I will remain a patriot of the "USA"

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Old 10-04-2017, 07:38 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airtandem View Post
I remember a RADIO program called "The Don McNeil Breakfast Club". As it was, prayer was said before the meal (one was eating at home) it was something like this:
"Each in his own words and each in his own way, let's bow our heads and pray".
Eliana; I think YOU showed some disrespect in "walking out". I have gone to different homes and churches and I respect their methods of worship, I am Catholic. I don't try to change them, and don't try to change me; religion, politics, guns or money etc.
I recently went to a Morman Festival in Navoo Il. and attended most of their outside activities, only Mormans can go in the Temple. Not once did anyone come up and try to get me to join, but they did explain their beliefs. They did make me feel welcome.
MJ
Wow. Not sure how to reply. Thank you for insulting me. Are you one of those people who thinks "Jewish" is just another protestant (i.e. Christian) denomination? Everything you say you attended was Christian. I too have attended Christian weddings, Buddhist temple, and a vast array of other religious services. I didn't get up and walk out. Why? I knew that I was going to a place of worship. I also respected that.

The Airstream Club is NOT a Christian organization. It is a CAMPING club. I did not rudely get up and walk out in the middle of their service. I had breakfast with everyone, and then when it was apparent that they were transitioning to a Christian worship service, I told everyone goodbye, wished them safe travels, and told them I enjoyed the rally and meeting everyone. I was polite and respectful. And YES, I left. No one is obligated to participate in an event planned in a CAMPING club which is clearly against their religion.

It is responses like yours which insure that some of us will never come back. Your response shows a profound lack of sensitivity, ignorance, and intolerance.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:39 AM   #202
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Did you see this rally happening this coming weekend north of Columbia? Sounds like fun. Paula
Thanks! No, but I DID actually sign up for another rally in Nebraska City, NE beginning tomorrow!
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:45 AM   #203
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Eliana,

Never met you and you've never met us but if you walked by at a camp I was at and made any comment about having an Airstream or our Airstream I'd offer you a chair at our campfire or awning whatever the season dictated. Conversation starts there for us in camp.

We have a common interest, camping first Airstream second.

Regards,

Gary
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:53 AM   #204
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Hi Peter,

"Ambushed" is actually accurate. I joined a CAMPING club. Not a religious organization. But as to your other question, no, I don't think anyone is obligated to change the way they do things just because it wasn't my thing. The group probably had always done things the way they were doing them. They were for the most part, older white Christians. Most were at least in their 70's. Many in their 80's. There was no diversity. Probably they had never encountered someone of a completely different faith or ethnic background. But it doesn't matter. I don't have anything negative to say about the group. They were nice people, and were very welcoming. But the fact that they insert religion into every activity, and that religion is not MINE doesn't obligate my participation. But it also does not imply that I think they should change just because their practices are not in line with my own. It just means I won't be back... Their practices exclude anyone who doesn't fit those practices. Probably NOT by design. More by accident, I would think.

The question posed was "why did I leave?" I think my official answer would be "lack of inclusiveness", or just "ignorance of the value of diversity". There are other groups out there. ) . Some have reached out to me here.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:08 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliana View Post
Wow. Not sure how to reply. Thank you for insulting me. Are you one of those people who thinks "Jewish" is just another protestant (i.e. Christian) denomination? Everything you say you attended was Christian. I too have attended Christian weddings, Buddhist temple, and a vast array of other religious services. I didn't get up and walk out. Why? I knew that I was going to a place of worship. I also respected that.

The Airstream Club is NOT a Christian organization. It is a CAMPING club. I did not rudely get up and walk out in the middle of their service. I had breakfast with everyone, and then when it was apparent that they were transitioning to a Christian worship service, I told everyone goodbye, wished them safe travels, and told them I enjoyed the rally and meeting everyone. I was polite and respectful. And YES, I left. No one is obligated to participate in an event planned in a CAMPING club which is clearly against their religion.

It is responses like yours which insure that some of us will never come back. Your response shows a profound lack of sensitivity, ignorance, and intolerance.

Well said, ma’am. I myself enjoy a lil church, as that is how I was raised and I have a soft spot for gospel music. But I would never expect someone who was raised differently to join me if it made them uncomfortable. And most certainly not while we’re campin. Some folks forget that we live in a secular nation where not forcin your beliefs on others is one of the primary principals our flag stands for. Pledging allegiance to that flag and then criticizin someone for not prayin with ya is a contradiction.

It sounds to me like ya made a very polite and acceptable exit.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:08 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by GCinSC2 View Post
Eliana,

Never met you and you've never met us but if you walked by at a camp I was at and made any comment about having an Airstream or our Airstream I'd offer you a chair at our campfire or awning whatever the season dictated. Conversation starts there for us in camp.

We have a common interest, camping first Airstream second.

Regards,

Gary


Yep. Exactly. Well except that I don’t carry extra chairs.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:13 AM   #207
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Thank you for the invitation! The funny thing for me is that I grew up in Wyoming, and there was a reasonably large Jewish congregation which is now over 100 years old. And there was quite a bit of ethnic diversity. In WYOMING! Pretty weird, when you think about it. So when I moved to Kansas City, I WAS surprised that some people didn't even know what "Jewish" IS. There were people who said "Is that like being Presbyterian?" LOL

Personally, I would never expect anyone to provide kosher food. My children don't keep kosher, and I don't even expect them to do that. And the truth is, they CAN'T do it because they don't have a kosher kitchen, and really don't understand the rules. However, they are kind enough to avoid service pork/shellfish at family dinners. For me, that is good enough. Because they are my kids, and I love them. )

Anyway, thank you. I appreciate the response.

Eliana
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:32 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliana View Post
Wow. Not sure how to reply. Thank you for insulting me. Are you one of those people who thinks "Jewish" is just another protestant (i.e. Christian) denomination? Everything you say you attended was Christian. I too have attended Christian weddings, Buddhist temple, and a vast array of other religious services. I didn't get up and walk out. Why? I knew that I was going to a place of worship. I also respected that.

The Airstream Club is NOT a Christian organization. It is a CAMPING club. I did not rudely get up and walk out in the middle of their service. I had breakfast with everyone, and then when it was apparent that they were transitioning to a Christian worship service, I told everyone goodbye, wished them safe travels, and told them I enjoyed the rally and meeting everyone. I was polite and respectful. And YES, I left. No one is obligated to participate in an event planned in a CAMPING club which is clearly against their religion.

It is responses like yours which insure that some of us will never come back. Your response shows a profound lack of sensitivity, ignorance, and intolerance.
Can we get an "AMEN" to that?

I was just "elected" (more correctly coercion-by-pleading) to an officer's position in our WBCCI unit. The Sunday morning breakfast-worship-service is somewhat an imposition on our time, IMO. I wonder how the unit will feel if/when they see me dispense with that.
I sometimes see led-prayers as manipulative conscription of my time. I know how to pray silently without being forced to participate in someone else's idea of it.... And I don't see it much different than a rude interruption of my personal thought processes.
Think about it. When someone interrupts a large group's interactions with one-another with an announcement "LETS ALL BOW OUR HEADS AND PRAY".... it is actually a theft and a take-over of the group's activities.

To add insult to the injury.... the individual who does not participate is made to feel badly for his own belief system.
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:38 AM   #209
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Since you asked:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ml#post1469645

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ml#post1469867

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ml#post1470626

Two years ago while I was having service done to my AS at JC, I was "dragged" over to WBCCI headquarters by the one person who recruited more members to WBCCI than Wally himself, and I met with the staff there. They all agreed that this never should have happened. What they were somehow unable to do was to resolve the issue - how and who should take ownership of it. Last winter Jim Cocke was camping at RoVers' Roost (the Escapee co-op where I happen to have a leasehold). He agreed that this should never have happened and asked me to email him the history, which I did. I have heard nothing since.

As someone who had worked drafting tax law for the Canadian government, I am very aware of the process that has to be followed for any change in law to be implemented. In Roberts Rules of Order, a change to the bylaws requires that the entire membership has to be polled and the change cannot be moved forward until 2/3 of the entire membership agree. Then, and only then, should it be submitted to the higher level for approval - for WBCCI that would mean the person designated (which was Don Shaffer).

So the issue is supposedly now something the IBT has to resolve - that's like dragging a dead elephant across a field; they'll wait for the carcass to rot out.
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Old 10-04-2017, 09:00 AM   #210
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SNIP

So the issue is supposedly now something the IBT has to resolve - that's like dragging a dead elephant across a field; they'll wait for the carcass to rot out.
This is funny but also SO TRUE!
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